2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Darth Tater]

5 hours ago, turtle said:

I didn't even know we bought him back

Apke will still be here in 30+ years.

[Koolblue13]

9 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Apke will still be here in 30+ years.

wandering around the locker room like Tom Coughlin after he was fired.

[RVAskins]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

wandering around the locker room like Tom Coughlin after he was fired.

Like George Costanza showing up to work after he was fired, pretending like it never happened.

[ntotoro]

12 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

Like George Costanza showing up to work after he was fired, pretending like it never happened.

 

Didn't he quit rather dramatically and tried to act as if he never did it? 😄

 

I could actually see Dan trying to pull that with the team sale...

[Darth Tater]

On 6/7/2023 at 5:40 PM, MartinC said:

To be fair to that line under Spurrier they were hung out to dry by inept coaching. We ran like 3 protections and had a system with zero hot reads.

 

Pat Ramsey is lucky to be alive.

Yep, we had two of the best tackles we ever had during SOS period and two above average guards in year 2 (albeit one was a rook). Problem was that we were terrible at identifying rushers (I believe that was the line that gave up a quick sack when they rushed 3 and we had 5 blockers). We often had 5 blockers looking at 7 rushers and no hots for a QB not known for mobility. Pretty much from 1981 to 2018, offensive line talent-wise was not an issue except for much of mid 90s (and that was as much about injury as lack of talent).

[Skinsinparadise]

Some training camp podcasts, radio apperances. 

 

Michael Phillips

 

Heavy emphasis on TEs in camp

 

The secondary looked good

 

Was asked if Howell is favoring Dyami because of their history and has said not at all.  The dude who Howell seems to like to favor with his throws is Dotson. 

 

Keim

 

Howell has had his ups and downs but they like his progress

 

Emphasis on liking what he's seen from the secondary.  Butler has had a good camp.  Forrest looks better.

 

That's the 2nd time he's mentioned seeing B. Daniels get beat.  They are mostly working him at LT.

 

Rodriguez has caught the ball well

 

Wildgoose has looked solid in the slot

 

Standig

 

A.  The gap between Howell and Brissett is close from what he's seen but as long as Howell doesn't give the job away, he should hold the starting spot.

 

B. Daniels and Stromberg are after thoughts in camp and he said that's even an understatement. They get no mention from the coaching staff and don't look to contribute this season.  He's a bit stunned that they took a 3rd-4th round players who likely don't contribute this season.

 

C.  Emmanuel Fornes and Quan Martin have had strong camps.

 

Paulsen on Standig

 

A.  Secondary looks awesome.  Quan Martin, Forbes and the rest of the group.

 

B.  Biggest question for him is the offensive line.  They are gambiling on a unit of players who have been inconsistent at best.    

 

C.  Talked about them using multiple TE sets

 

D.  Quan Martin can cover both WRs and TEs well and is a physical player, too

 

E.  Logan Thomas looks great.   Best off season of any player on the team.   Howell is comfortable with him as a key target. 

 

F.  Cole Turner started hot but cooled off some in the last 2 practices.   C. Hodges is inconsistent but has freakish athleticism.  Bates has made some nice catches.

 

G.  The UDFA WRs looked good.  Tinsley might have a slight edge but Sample, Tremayne are very close behind him.  K. Allen looked good initially but he's out at the moment because of his hamstring.

 

H.  He likes Howell right now over Brissett because of upside and the quicker release

[MartinC]

5 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Yep, we had two of the best tackles we ever had during SOS period and two above average guards in year 2 (albeit one was a rook). Problem was that we were terrible at identifying rushers (I believe that was the line that gave up a quick sack when they rushed 3 and we had 5 blockers). We often had 5 blockers looking at 7 rushers and no hots for a QB not known for mobility. Pretty much from 1981 to 2018, offensive line talent-wise was not an issue except for much of mid 90s (and that was as much about injury as lack of talent).

Actually I was wrong, we had two (2!!!!) protection calls not three.

https://dc.sbnation.com/platform/amp/washington-redskins/2011/7/22/2288470/ross-tucker-steve-spurrier-washington-redskins

[Chump Bailey]

24 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

C. Hodges is inconsistent but has freakish athleticism. 

 

I keep forgetting we have Hodges. For my money, he has the best tools of the lot. I liked him coming out and surprised he went undrafted. Too many injuries perhaps...

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said:

 

I keep forgetting we have Hodges. For my money, he has the best tools of the lot. I liked him coming out and surprised he went undrafted. Too many injuries perhaps...

 

Big dude, watched him after they drafted him.  Definitely intriguing.

[Bifflog]

37 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Big dude, watched him after they drafted him.  Definitely intriguing.

 

Logan Paulsen according to his appearance on Standig's podcast is into this TE room bigtime, even after Armani's injury.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Bifflog said:

 

Logan Paulsen according to his appearance on Standig's podcast is into this TE room bigtime, even after Armani's injury.

 

Agree. He's been into the TEs all off season.  It's gotten plenty of mentions on different threads.

 

I like the group too if they can stay healthy.  I'd have added a TE from this draft for depth purposes and because the draft was unusually stacked at that spot -- Logan warmed up to that idea as the draft approached but overall he's high on the talent at the spot.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

Paulson loooooved the TE group even minus Logan last season. Now he's just doubling down.

 

Once again, I'll take his take on the subject with a massive side of salt and lean towards the under w/ that group.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a big time risk rolling with this group.  And I understand the oline angst for sure amongst fans (and I share a lot of that angst).  With that said, I think I do prefer unproven backend guys vs guys that have played, but at a subpar level - whether consistently subpar, or whose play has dropped off as they’ve aged.

 

 

As to you preferring unproven backups, its cool.  But that's not how i prefer it. 

 

 Back in the day it was great to have Ray Brown for years as a plug and play if someone gut hurt.  Wes Schweitzer for the first two years here.  Ty Nsheke, etc.

 

I was at the Cincy game in 2012 where Trent went down.  Forgot who the backup was but it was some scrub and RG3 got sacked in back to back plays.

 

Especially with a young QB -- don't love the idea of unproven guys, especially our version of it on the interior where both young guys are undersized for the spot.  

 

I get the vibe that Ron doesn't want to see Stromberg and Daniels on the field let alone sees them as strong backups for this season.  Seems like both picks were for 2024 in mind at least based on early reports.

 

7 hours ago, skinny21 said:

My one thing with the TEs is what teams don’t have to look to street FAs if 2 of their TEs get injured?  Don’t teams typically carry either 3 or 4 in season?  It feels like people think having 5 guys they liked wasn’t enough.  Of course, I do get those that were hoping we could nab a top TE to give us a better chance at developing a stud there.  

 

It's not that I thought 5 isn't enough.  And just to be clear, I am not in any panic or concern about TE.  I can see that spot working out without needing a ton of luck unlike the O line.

 

It's about context for me.

 

A.  ALL five of these TEs have been hurt in recent years.  And one of them is out now.  Hopefully the others make it through camp. 

 

B.  The last draft was an unusually deep and loaded at TE.  Draftniks like DJ among others said it's once of the best drafts he's ever seen for that spot.  Teams like GB for example took 2.  It was sort of like a unique buffet line and we skipped it.  But its a mild criticism for me.  O line is a major criticism from me.   

 

We've had some really weak TE drafts in recent years, this draft felt like an oasis on that front, and they passed it by.  Not the end of the world though.  From my thinking its a mild criticism but not a big deal.  The big deal is O line for me.

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

See I think this is mentally preparing yourself to rationalize away a scenario where Harris would demonstrate that he's another bad owner.  If an owner comes in midseason and tampers with the roster in any way, especially doing something as drastic as forcing a coach to trade players, then that is terrible meddling.  There is no equivocation on that.  For a new owner to do it, it would define his style and pretty much submarine any good working culture we've managed to build.  Your football people need to have absolute authority over the roster and their own staffing during the season.  Not giving them that is tantamount to quitting on competing.  And if you force them to trade off players, then you better fire them and give him his severance that moment, because it'd be trashy to do otherwise.

 

 

It's not addressed to me but can't help jumping in.

 

To me the point is driven by context.  If the season is already shot what's the point in that context to see if Ron pulls off one of his vintage mid season rallies where we end up 8-9 instead of 5-12?  Now if they are doing so so at that point then let Ron play it out to see if he can elevate so so to a playoff run. 

 

But if the season is nose diving, at that point if you think for example you aren't going to be able to afford cap wise to have four guys on the D line at 20 plus million -- why play out the script just so Rivera can win a few more games before he's canned?  What wouid be the point?

 

Part of the culture of this team's FO under Dan has been we are mostly buyers not sellers of players.  We trade picks away for veterans, we don't so much accumulate picks.  We only trade players, and typically do so for peanuts basically once in a blue moon when our hand is forced.   Otherwise the future is always now.

 

Ron has been as much of a posterchild for this as anyone.  And you've ripped him for only getting a 5th for Dunbar and a 3rd and change for Trent.   I didn't rip him for either deal.  I get both deals considering context. 

 

What I have an issue about him, Dan, Bruce, Shanny, Vinny is how they don't play the game of trading their assets when their value is high.  And each regime has lost almost every trade they've made.   Ron is no different with the Wentz trade.   

 

Changing the FO culture is partly about not chasing mediocrity so aggressively and instead be willing to build draft assets for the future.  That's what the Eagles do for example.  We don't play that game.  How about even if its just one time replicate what Casserly did over 25 years ago and have two first round picks in a draft?  The most we've ever gotten back in a trade was the third rounder for Trent in 25 plus years.  That's a pathetic run.

 

The current FO plays things very medium.  They don't trade away their future but they also don't aggressively build for their future, as to accumulating draft capital.  I gather you don't like Harris.  But heck I'd take 6 playoff appearances and at least advancing in the playoffs in 5 of those 6 years as a nice change versus Dan's pathetic run.  Our peak of consistency under Dan was a 9-7 season back to back with 8-7-1. That's the peak of consistency.  Otherwise zero back to back winning seasons.   And a playoff win every 15 years. 

 

Harris doesn't like to play it medium by reputation.  the 76ers were arguably too aggressive as to tanking -- but I like the mindset behind it, lose battles to win the war.   That's a mindset we've not had under Dan.   And I don't feel like its in Ron's DNA either -- Ron likes to play it medium.  So i don't expect Ron to be Harris' cup of a tea as far as how he runs his FO.  Though am sure publicly it will come off they get along great because I expect them personally to get along great in part because Ron is a great guy.  

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As to you preferring unproven backups, its cool.  But that's not how i prefer it. 

 

 Back in the day it was great to have Ray Brown for years as a plug and play if someone gut hurt.  Wes Schweitzer for the first two years here.  Ty Nsheke, etc.

 

I was at the Cincy game in 2012 where Trent went down.  Forgot who the backup was but it was some scrub and RG3 got sacked in back to back plays.

 

Especially with a young QB -- don't love the idea of unproven guys, especially our version of it on the interior where both young guys are undersized for the spot.  

 

I get the vibe that Ron doesn't want to Stromberg and Daniels on the field let alone sees them as strong backups for this season.  Seems like both picks were for 2024 in mind at least based on early reports.

I’m a little confused by your point here - we have Lucas at tackle (as you know), so it’s not about throwing a nobody out there as the backup.  Now, if Wylie gets moved and Lucas becomes the starter, then fair play.

At guard, it’s certainly shakier.  Presumably the backup is whoever loses out between Paul and Charles.  Frankly, I’d feel a lot better if we’d retained Schweitzer and the back end guys were competing for a final spot.  But of course I addressed that when I said I’d feel a lot better if they had another capable (or better) guard to compete with these guys, and thereby improve the depth.

To turn it around, it’s cool if you prefer vets proven to be poor starters vs younger guys with potential.  

 

The Daniels/Stromberg thing is interesting.  I get the staff thinking they’re not likely to play if the idea is that beating out Gates/Larsen or Leno/Wylie/Lucas seems like a long shot for a 3rd/4th rounder.  On the other hand, kind of weird to treat a 3rd and 4th rounder as purely developmental types.  Getting 2nd team reps is maybe a step in the right direction at least, though that could be less about earning it than just moving guys around.  I’m not gonna overthink it though until we see how TC plays out…we’ll just have to see.

 

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

It's not that I thought 5 isn't enough.  And just to be clear, I am not in any panic or concern about TE.  I can see that spot working out without needing a ton of luck unlike the O line.

 

It's about context for me.

 

A.  ALL five of these TEs have been hurt in recent years.  And one of them is out now.  Hopefully the others make it through camp. 

 

B.  The last draft was an unusually deep and loaded at TE.  Draftnikes like DJ among others said it's once of the best drafts he's ever seen for that spot.  Teams like GB for example took 2.  It was sort of like a unique buffett line and we skipped it.  But its a mild criticism for me.  O line is a major criticism from me.   

 

We've had some really weak TE drafts in recent years, this draft felt like an oasis on that front, and they passed it by.  Not the end of the world though.  

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’d have dug landing a TE… and I’m a big fan of taking advantage of positional depth in the draft.  I’m not mad about it though given the picks we made, especially because of the numbers game.  If we lose a 2nd TE, we still have 3 guys we like (and, I suppose, Armah at FB).  Again, I’d love to have a stud at the position, but on the bright side, it’s often a slow developing position and we have/had 4 young guys.

Also, my words could have been more clear, but it wasn’t directed at a position like yours, but rather those either outraged we didn’t draft one or feeling like the team is screwed since Rogers got hurt.  I should also add that it’s not that I think we’re fine there, but we have some talent and a system that looks to take advantage of their abilities.  Similar to oline (though, like you I feel better about TE), we’ll see how it works out.

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’m a little confused by your point here - we have Lucas at tackle (as you know), so it’s not about throwing a nobody out there as the backup.  Now, if Wylie gets moved and Lucas becomes the starter, then fair play.

At guard, it’s certainly shakier.  Presumably the backup is whoever loses out between Paul and Charles.  Frankly, I’d feel a lot better if we’d retained Schweitzer and the back end guys were competing for a final spot.  But of course I addressed that when I said I’d feel a lot better if they had another capable (or better) guard to compete with these guys, and thereby improve the depth.

 

My concern is specifically at guard.   I never said tackle or center.  i don't like the permutations of what would happen at guard.  And just by chance our two starting guards have a history of struggiling to stay healthy.

 

I can deal with Chris Paul as a backup because he's a natural guard.    I expect Paul to ultimately start because one of the two guards likely goes down early in the season.  But then if there is another injury, then what?

 

Stromberg made my short list of my guys before the draft.  But to me he's a center not a backup at guard.  And Daniels is a project let alone he's 290 pounds and change. 

 

3 of the 5 spots at the O line IMO are low ceiling players.  

 

3 of the 5 sports are manned by players who you have to worry about their health

 

And I think the depth is a little weaker than last season.  Stromberg strengthens the depth at center but not guard IMO. 

 

Daniels I don't get the impression they want to see him play this season.   Imagine a rookie who weighs 294 having to jump in a game against a big boy monster like Dexter Lawrence?  I'd much rather see someone like Schweitzer deal with him.

 

I get your point and I wouldn't disagree if the young backups would be dudes that are suited to play if need be at the given spots.  Lets say their backup guards were young players who actually played guard in college and are the right size for the pros?   Lets say they had someone like Torrence on the bench -- yeah I'd take that over a veteran.  So I am with you in that context.  But not a natural center who is undersized for guard.  Or an undersized project, etc.

 

If they had for example another player with Chris Paul's profile at guard, I'd be good with that.  But for me its that they are really just one spot deep at guard -- along with that the depth will likely be tested -- that combination bothers me.   I know some think they will just shuffle guys around.  Maybe but lets say you move Wylie to guard and Lucas to tackle then who is the backup tackle?  The dominos feel really dicey to me.

 

32 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

C plays out…we’ll just have to see.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’d have dug landing a TE… and I’m a big fan of taking advantage of positional depth in the draft.  I’m not mad about it though given the picks we made, especially because of the numbers game.  If we lose a 2nd TE, we still have 3 guys we like (and, I suppose, Armah at FB).  Again, I’d love to have a stud at the position, but on the bright side, it’s often a slow developing position and we have/had 4 young guys.

Also, my words could have been more clear, but it wasn’t directed at a position like yours, but rather those either outraged we didn’t draft one or feeling like the team is screwed since Rogers got hurt.  I should also add that it’s not that I think we’re fine there, but we have some talent and a system that looks to take advantage of their abilities.  Similar to oline (though, like you I feel better about TE), we’ll see how it works out.

 

OK we are pretty similar on this.  I am not outraged about what they did at TE at all.  I am slightly dissapointed that they didn't take one but that's it.

 

As for the Armani Rogers part.  I think part of that is Logan Paulsen was the king of pushing the idea of TE is good the way it is without additions and the dude he'd push the hardest on that front is Armani Rogers and stressed how this team was really high about him in particular.  Then he gets hurt.  And Keim among others said it was a devastating injury and that they had high hopes for him and specificed in particular how they envisioned he'd be a big part of the screen game.

 

So I do think the Rogers injury did shake up the team some for real.  But they do like the other TEs, too.   

Edited June 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

Of course Ron and company don’t want to see their rookie 3rd and 4th round picks play. Ideally your starters remain healthy and the rookie backups can learn while sitting. This never happens, both most likely will play unless Washington is extremely fortunate from an injury standpoint. 
 

Is it common for 3rd and 4th round Olineman to be penciled in as starters on draft day? 

[skinny21]

@SkinsinparadiseRead through your original response to mine (and reread mine) and I think I see the disconnect now.

1. I missed the part where you said “our version of it in the interior”, and since you’d mentioned Brown and Nsheke, I thought you were including tackle (so I pointed at Lucas).

2. I said “back end” players - I wasn’t referring to our immediate backups.  Now, I do (and did) wonder if someone from those two groups - the young guys and semi-veteran PS guys we picked up - might be able to step up to a backup role.  And then there’s the idea that whichever guy loses the LG battle would be the next guard up.  As I said though, I’d feel a lot more comfortable if we had one more proven guy at guard to 1. Compete for the starting gig, and 2. Bolster depth.

[mojo]

I know it’s wishful thinking but I could see an RG3 type debut for Howell. I could see Biennemy keeping the offense under wraps for the preseason and unleashing something great week 1.  Not saying it’s sustainable at all but I could envision week 1 being fun.  Hope I’m right.

[DWinzit]

13 hours ago, Conn said:

Not related to us, but I know we all love this behind the scenes stuff and hey, it’s not training camp yet 

These were tremendous to watch.  I want Ossenfort to be with the Commanders! Dude was poetry in motion, wow.

 

[DiscoBob]

7 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

Apke will still be here in 30+ years.

 

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

wandering around the locker room like Tom Coughlin after he was fired.

 

Wandering the Loudon countryside attacking wind turbines 

[CTskin]

I just read on pft that there are 4 potential teams up for Hard Knocks and we’re the one team that hasn’t directly said “no”. Personally, I’d love it. An inside view of the team would be a blast. Also, the team on hard knocks always seems to win over viewers and we could really use that love. Couple it with the fact that dirtbag is out and it could put us on the fast track to not being viewed as a clownshow.

 

also, unrelated to the above- will someone smarter than me explain how Quan Martin effects Kam Curl? It seems like he’s the heir apparent, which bums me out. Kam was our diamond in the rough find and I’d hate to see him leave. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by CTskin

[DWinzit]

14 hours ago, skinny21 said:

The Daniels/Stromberg thing is interesting.  I get the staff thinking they’re not likely to play if the idea is that beating out Gates/Larsen or Leno/Wylie/Lucas seems like a long shot for a 3rd/4th rounder.  On the other hand, kind of weird to treat a 3rd and 4th rounder as purely developmental types.  Getting 2nd team reps is maybe a step in the right direction at least, though that could be less about earning it than just moving guys around.  I’m not gonna overthink it though until we see how TC plays out…we’ll just have to see.

Agreed and hoping they receive more opportunity as training camp gets started. That is especially true with Strom who there are higher expectations from.

 

Daniels is going to need to get that lunging issue under wraps or he won't deserve earning reps with the 2nd team, very bad habit.

 

If Strom does not see more 2nd team action in camp it would be very unsettling, almost feels like a waist of 2 big draft picks...and we have already had our share of those and can't afford more. I don't think that will occur. 

 

14 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Don’t get me wrong, I’d have dug landing a TE… and I’m a big fan of taking advantage of positional depth in the draft.  I’m not mad about it though given the picks we made, especially because of the numbers game.  If we lose a 2nd TE, we still have 3 guys we like (and, I suppose, Armah at FB).  Again, I’d love to have a stud at the position, but on the bright side, it’s often a slow developing position and we have/had 4 young guys.

Also, my words could have been more clear, but it wasn’t directed at a position like yours, but rather those either outraged we didn’t draft one or feeling like the team is screwed since Rogers got hurt.  I should also add that it’s not that I think we’re fine there, but we have some talent and a system that looks to take advantage of their abilities.  Similar to oline (though, like you I feel better about TE), we’ll see how it works out.

Many are stating the young TE group is well thought of. The health and inexperience of the group will continue to brought up. If Bates or Thomas do go down, this group will look very weak.

 

Hodges is the one to watch the growth with as we know what we will be getting from the others. He could be more exciting than the others as he matures into the position. 

 

Both OL and TE still are the areas of depth concern on the offensive side. At least there are some young talents that may have opportunity to shine. There have been years gone by where our backups have been dreadful. We do need reliable backups at all positions as our history has shown

Edited June 10, 2023 by DWinzit

[DWinzit]

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Was asked if Howell is favoring Dyami because of their history and has said not at all.  The dude who Howell seems to like to favor with his throws is Dotson

 

G.  The UDFA WRs looked good.  Tinsley might have a slight edge but Sample, Tremayne are very close behind him.  K. Allen looked good initially but he's out at the moment because of his hamstring.

Dyami and Milne are going need to watch over their shoulders as some of these UDFA are looking pretty darn good!

 

It will be fun to watch how Howell progresses and who becomes his favorite targets, Dotson is not a bad place to start!

[DWinzit]

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 Back in the day it was great to have Ray Brown for years as a plug and play if someone gut hurt.  Wes Schweitzer for the first two years here.  Ty Nsheke, etc.

Great start of a list of our OL unsung heroes over the years, Ray Brown was the man for while!!!

Two that I always think of that moved into whatever position they were needed in were Joe Jacoby and Raleigh McKenzie