Daron Payne or Jonathan Allen? You are the GM who do you keep?

[Zim489]

On 2/2/2023 at 5:08 PM, wit33 said:

Not sure, but there’s a league wide mandate that each team must spend 95% of their cap each season. 

This isnt correct. The LEAGUE has to spend 95% of its cap on a rolling 4 year average in agreement with the NFLPA. Theres no such rule on a team to team basis. There is a cap floor for each specific team but its not 95%. Browns for instance this year spent less than 71% of their allotted cap space. Like the bears have to spend 160 mil in cash this offseason even though they dont have 160 mil in cap space. 

 

Were not even close to having to spend money. We could sign absolutely no one outside of draft picks and gut the roster and not have to sign anyone to reach the floor as theres no set single season floor.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Zim489

[Skinsinparadise]

— You can bet a couple million dollars that the Giants’ Dexter Lawrence and Jets’ Quinnen Williams would like to see Chiefs defensive tackle Chris Jones follow through and plead his case for creating a new position in the NFL.

Jones, who is considered one of the league’s premier interior pass rushers, sometimes shifts to the edge of the defensive line to fully capitalize on his versatile skill set.

“We have to change that. I want to change that to hybrid,” Jones said in advance of Super Bowl LVII against the Eagles. “Hybrid defensive linemen can play inside and outside. I have to have a talk with the NFL Players Association about that. We have to change the position.”

Lawrence, who led the Giants with 7.5 sacks, and Williams, who led the Jets with 12, are two defensive tackles who are not going to argue. Both first-time Pro Bowlers and All-Pros (first team for Williams, second team for Lawrence) are under contract for 2023 on the team-friendly fifth-year options exercised on their respective rookie contracts.

Williams is threatening to hold out of voluntary activities in the spring if he does not sign a new multiyear extension by then. Lawrence told The Post late in the season that he wants to be a Giant for life but isn’t as public about his contract demands or negotiating tactics.

 

“I hope those guys blow the market out,” Jones said. “They have been playing outstanding for their organizations. Dexter Lawrence did an amazing job this year. [The Titans’] Jeffery Simmons has been a stud for years. Quinnen Williams, what he’s done in New York with his snaps is ridiculous. I think those guys will deserve a payday. I hope they reset the market and keep it going. That’s what it’s all about.”

Jones’ $20 million average annual salary on a four-year contract is third to future Hall of Famer Aaron Donald’s untouchable $31.6 million average with the Rams and DeForest Buckner’s $21 million with the Colts. Jones, who tied his career-high 15.5 sacks this season and added two more in the AFC Championship game, also could be in search of a new deal in 2023 rather than playing out a walk-year.

Add free agent DaRon Payne of the Commanders to the possible contract-seekers with Jones, Simmons, Lawrence and Williams, and it’s no wonder that experts predict the premium defensive tackle price tag is about to skyrocket toward $25 million per year.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim today doubled down that they want Payne back.  Rivera in an interview with Keim hinted at the same.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[DWinzit]

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Getting a bad feeling about this. Why do these things always work out better for the other 31 teams? Oh wait, I know, it starts at the top....he laughs in frustration

 

They should have already handled this contract. My gut is we tag him and end out trading him. 

[skinsfan66]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

Getting a bad feeling about this. Why do these things always work out better for the other 31 teams? Oh wait, I know, it starts at the top....he laughs in frustration

 

They should have already handled this contract. My gut is we tag him and end out trading him. 

My feeling is they have to put one of the tags on him.  The transition from owner to owner is going to be tough on the negotiations. Keep him, negotiate later if possible.  Move on to things you can control, like the draft.  

[Redwards]

Payne is as good as gone.  He'll play a year under the tag (as expected) and then walk, as do most of our stars.  Pretty sick and tired of this organization not getting value for so many of their best players.  I'm envious of teams like the Eagles who take an objective look at their best players, assess how many years those players have left to help them vs. what they can get in assets for that player.  Then, they strategically trade who they deem a good candidate and parlay that into draft picks that they then parlay into more picks. 

 

Can't wait for a new owner to come in and clean house.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, DWinzit said:

Getting a bad feeling about this. Why do these things always work out better for the other 31 teams? Oh wait, I know, it starts at the top....he laughs in frustration

 

They should have already handled this contract. My gut is we tag him and end out trading him. 

 

We aren't the only team with big players who end up hitting FA of course so it happens.  Also it happens where there is a discrepancy between what a player wants and what a team is willing to give but the good teams trade the players in those cases versus celebrating a 3rd round comp pick.

 

I was ok with how they handled Scherff because teams don't trade big for guards and they tried to lock him in with a longer deal and Scherff didn't want to be here.

 

As good as Payne is and overall I want him.  I do have a little buyer beware with him because I can't think of a dude we've had so overtly pushing money.  He incorporates money gestures in his sack dance.  Isn't shy making the case, implying so, that he doesn't care where he plays, as long as its the most money.  Most players at least fake this and say they've love to be back and this is their preference.  Emoji with money bag now on Instagram.  Wearing green on his exit day that the reporters read him to give the message of give me my money.  He referenced it in and interview.  On and on.  Payne is the show me the money dude from Jerry McGuire -- it feels that over the top.

 

Logan Paulsen referenced during camp (said so at the time) that he's watched Payne's other camps and he hasn't seen him this on fire and pracitcing with this much oomph than what he saw this time.  He referenced the contract motivating him.  Some other beat guy also said that off season what he heard is Payne really really wants to get paid and expect a big year.  Heck even Rivera referenced the contract year motivating Payne recently.

 

The last dude I can think of with money overlapping a narrative to the extent of Payne was Dana Stubblefield.  He had a career year before FA and was never the same.  I am not saying it happens ditto with Payne.  But my point is as a media junkie of this team forever, I can't think of a player this money centric in eons.  So count me in the group that while I'd like Payne back I'd far from hate a trade.  Heck Payne comes off like he'd play in the XFL if they gave him the most money.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fan since a Fetus]

Shouldn’t be Surprised by Payne wanting maximum money. He’s been saying it all along. He even said he doesn’t care about ownership of the team he plays for. 
 

I’ve liked Payne prior to this past year. But, I do have reservations about him playing at this high of a level after getting paid. His best year came when he needed it. 

 Franchise him. Make him prove it again.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Fan since a Fetus
Mistake, which I’m known to make

[Zim489]

So if he was given the tag today. He could sign the tag today. If he did, Dan has to pay out the escrow I believe today. If not a short period of time. 
 

we’ll see if that actually happens. I have my doubts dans spending 18 mil in the last month of ownership 

7 minutes ago, Fan since a Fetus said:

was a mistake not picking up his 5th year option.

They did pick it up. He’s entering his 6th season 

 

18

19

20

21

22

23

[Fan since a Fetus]

2 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

So if he was given the tag today. He could sign the tag today. If he did, Dan has to pay out the escrow I believe today. If not a short period of time. 
 

we’ll see if that actually happens. I have my doubts dans spending 18 mil in the last month of ownership 

They did pick it up. He’s entering his 6th season 

 

18

19

20

21

22

23

ooops, got him confused with someone else

[markmills67]

Payne is by far our biggest free agent this off-season, I'm in the camp of Trading him for a minimum of a high 2nd round pick. But what I don't uunderstandis how long it takes to work out a LTD,  You tell his agent how high you're willing to pay and if Payne says no tell his agent to look for trade partners and give him the franchise Tag. How hard is that?

 

[SoCalSkins]

15 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

Payne is by far our biggest free agent this off-season, I'm in the camp of Trading him for a minimum of a high 2nd round pick. But what I don't uunderstandis how long it takes to work out a LTD,  You tell his agent how high you're willing to pay and if Payne says no tell his agent to look for trade partners and give him the franchise Tag. How hard is that?

 

Why would Ron take a trade when he’s on the hot seat? Zero chance Ron trades him. He will likely get the tag. 

[markmills67]

57 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Why would Ron take a trade when he’s on the hot seat? Zero chance Ron trades him. He will lik57 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said: Why would Ron take a trade when he’s on the hot seat? Zero chance Ron trades him. He will likely get the tag.  ely get the tag. 

I would say we need the 20m that the tag will cost for our OL, 1 good year for Payne, get a 2nd and wave goodbye 

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, markmills67 said:

I would say we need the 20m that the tag will cost for our OL, 1 good year for Payne, get a 2nd and wave goodbye 

Not really. If you are going to sign OL the first year hit on a FA is usually reasonable. Ron is not trading Payne. Not happening. Listen to the man’s words. our QB room will be amongst the cheapest in the NFL. Plenty of cap. 

[Stadium-Armory]

I hope we pay Payne. QB on a rookie deal, and expensive "other pieces" is the formula.

 

Add: Think about it as an investment in the QB position. Having a strong defense will take some pressure off Howell. Give him some breathing room to develop without having to win shootouts.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Stadium-Armory

[MartinC]

4 hours ago, Zim489 said:

So if he was given the tag today. He could sign the tag today. If he did, Dan has to pay out the escrow I believe today. If not a short period of time. 
 

we’ll see if that actually happens. I have my doubts dans spending 18 mil in the last month of ownership 

 

Dans not writing the check - the team are. The teams finances and Dans are not completely unrelated but Dan is not providing operating cash flow - the team generates a profit and cash. It had about $130M of earnings before taxes, depreciation etc in 2021/22. So that’s operating profit after taking out all costs, a big part of which are player salaries. Operating revenue was over $544M.  Cash flow might be a different picture though.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[Birdlives]

10 hours ago, Zim489 said:

So if he was given the tag today. He could sign the tag today. If he did, Dan has to pay out the escrow I believe today. If not a short period of time. 

Wrong. Franchise designation is full salary only, no bonus, not guaranteed money. No escrow. If they tag Payne he’ll be due the DT compensation which he’ll have to earn by being a player throughout the 2023 season. He’ll get no bonus, no additional compensation. Before the next question comes out, no, they don’t have to get 2 1st round picks for Payne. That is the compensation due if another team signs him to an offer and we don’t match. That doesn’t happen anymore. By franchising Payne we get him at the designated salary and can accept any compensation if another team wants to sign him to an offer and trade for him. I would argue Payne’s true value is a 1st and additional compensation. Developing good DT’s is incredibly difficult. 

[JSSkinz]

@Skinsinparadise makes a good case for being cautious. I don't keep up with what the players are saying on social media but if it's true that he cares less about being here and is showing immaturity then tag and trade him.  If we can't move him he's here 1 more year and it bridges the gap which might be critical. I'll bet Phil was drafted to take Paynes' spot but that injury puts us in a tough situation.

[Est.1974]

10 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

Dans not writing the check - the team are. The teams finances and Dans are not completely unrelated but Dan is not providing operating cash flow - the team generates a profit and cash. It had about $130M of earnings before taxes, depreciation etc in 2021/22. So that’s operating profit after taking out all costs, a big part of which are player salaries. Operating revenue was over $544M.  Cash flow might be a different picture though.

Yep been beating that drum for a while.

[Skinsinparadise]