Inflation Or Price Gouging?

[Renegade7]

27 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

There's not much they can do (quickly).  What do you want a full scale investigation to show/find?  What are they going to investigate?  No judge is going to give you a search warrant because a company raised their prices when they had high profits.  That isn't enough evidence to over come the 4th amendment.

 

My understanding of what Biden did was he asked FTC to look into the following:

 

Quote

Biden asked the FTC on Wednesday to "immediately" investigate whether illegal activity by oil and gas companies is lifting gasoline prices.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/11/17/energy/oil-biden-ftc/index.html

 

My bet is if FTC found something worthy of criminal charges, they would hand it over to DOJ for pursuing in federal court.  This as opposed to making DOJ try to find something from scratch and likely getting rebuffed by a judge like you are mentioning. 

 

I agree with this model to set a precedent on how to go after the meat packing industry next (at minimum).  And making clear that charges are not off the table if and when going after other egregious sectors of the economy individually.

 

Turns out Biden administration is already doing that via DOJ and USDA, this is news to me (good news):

 

In one of the links in the below page:

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2021/12/10/recent-data-show-dominant-meat-processing-companies-are-taking-advantage-of-market-power-to-raise-prices-and-grow-profit-margins/

 

Quote

Taking strong actions to crack down on illegal price fixing, enforce antitrust laws, and bring more transparency to the meat-processing industry. USDA is conducting an ongoing joint investigation with the Department of Justice into price-fixing in the chicken-processing industry, which has already yielded a $107 million guilty plea by Pilgrim’s Pride and numerous other indictments. USDA has also announced a more robust Packers and Stockyards Act enforcement policy and new efforts to strengthen Packers and Stockyards Act rules, so that meat-processors can’t use their market dominance to abuse farmers and ranchers. And USDA is creating more transparency, with new market reports on what beef-processors pay, as well as new rules designed to ensure consumers get what they pay for when meat is labeled “Product of USA.”

 

27 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

They can raise prices so they are.  That's not illegal.  

 

We bout to find out if clear price gouging counts.

 

27 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Most of the relevant industries aren't monopolies given the current legal and historical definitions (though they might operate essentially like that).  Unless a whole bunch of whistle blowers start coming out with evidence of collusion, there's not really much the Democrats can't (quickly).

 

I agree this won't be easy, and that's why I'm not surprised to even see updates in the Big Oil FTC investigations, and those aren't even smaller companies.

 

27 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

(We have a longer term problem (that has been a problem) that our economy and system favors bigger businesses which allows a few companies to dominate markets and creates situations that while not legally monopolies they are heavily monopolistic, competition is decreased, and hurts the consumer.  What we need is a whole net set of laws that will help tilt the competition back towards small(er) businesses, but that's not something that's coming and wouldn't fix the problem right away.)

 

I agreed, a lot of companies are hiding as big enough players to be jus under the definition of monopolies and only get their hand bite when they got too far in acting like one (see recent anti-trust suits of companies like Facebook, Google, and Microsoft).

 

There is a thread about breaking some of these larger companies up (AWS at some point needs to be pried from Amazon), but that's borderline off-topic and to your point will also take a while (no way any of this gets resolved before the mid-term).

 

The people have spoken, inflation is more important to us then Ukraine, COVID, even terrorism, so government needs to act like it.  They also need to do a better job if communicating what we are doing about this.

 

It was easier to find that page on meat packing from the White House then articles about it.  Media is doing no help to this administration in constantly belaboring the point of inflation over anything that's going well in the economy while rarely if ever talking about the governments response to addressing it (even if limited and needs to go further).

Edited April 15, 2022 by Renegade7

[CousinsCowgirl84]

39 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Tesla exterior styling is terrible, but it does result in a useful interior.  I’m thinking of getting a Rivian…so dope!

 

 

Rivians are cool too. For some reason I didn’t think of them when thinking about EV cars… I thought about Tesla, Polestar, Lucid, and Ford.
 

Rivian needs to improve their marketing a bit maybe.

Edited April 15, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[TheDoyler23]

Arizona Ice Tea and Costco hot dogs - holding strong. 

[Ball Security]

1 hour ago, TheDoyler23 said:

Arizona Ice Tea and Costco hot dogs - holding strong. 

Thank you for your service.

[sjinhan]

You can call me biased if you want since I do work in the oil and gas industry.  I can tell you right now that the oil and gas industry

 

However, this pricing fixing thing on Big Oil is such a idiotic political circus.   This is just a distraction and waste of time that can be better spent truly talking about sustainable energy security and transition from cleaner energy sources.  Regardless of if you believe in Climate Change or not, the world moving to a sustainable cleaner AND cheaper energy future is best for humanity.  But our politicians prefer to play these petty games instead of addressing real change.

 

Below is a link to an article that was published on CNBC from Dec 2021.  Well before the Russian Invasion.. this explains the real reason for higher energy prices.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/23/why-high-gas-prices-are-more-about-wall-street-than-the-white-house.html

 

Here are some key points that I would like to highlight.

 

Quote

The root cause of today’s high gas prices isn’t politics: It’s financial pressure on oil companies from a decade of cash-flow losses that have made them change financial tactics. Investment in new wells has dropped more than 60%, causing U.S. crude oil production to plummet by more than 3 million barrels a day, or nearly 25%, just as the Covid virus hit, and then fail to recover with the economy. For an oil-drilling sector that lost 90% of its stock value from 2012 through early last year, it hasn’t been the toughest call in the world.

 

Oil company chief executives and finance chiefs have faced years of rising demand from markets for more disciplined capital spending after a spree of development centered in West Texas and North Dakota produced an estimated $10.9 billion in negative free cash flow in 2014 alone — roughly speaking, operating profit minus capital spending. That persistent cash drain made blue-chip oil exploration stocks drop 90% from their peak and spurred demands that companies eschew fast growth in favor of steadier profits and stock-boosting finance moves like higher dividends, more share buybacks and reduced debt.

 

“For really the decade that ended in 2019 or 2020, there was an energy revolution and what did the energy sector get? They were the worst performers in the S&P 500,″ said Rob Thummel, portfolio manager at Tortoise Capital in Overland Park, Kansas. 

 

Quote

The pressure on oil companies to stop draining cash took many forms.  The catastrophic drop in independent oil stocks forced a series of mergers of independent oil producers, and debt markets became more wary of oil companies, forcing producers to pay more attention to stockholders’ financial strategy demands.

 

“In effect, shareholders [had been] subsidizing the global price of oil,” says IHS Markit analyst Raoul LeBlanc.

 

The managements of bigger oil companies like Oxy, ConocoPhillips and others are more fiscally conservative than the independents they took over, LeBlanc said. Instead of maintaining debt loads of 2.5 times their annual earnings before deducting interest and non-cash depreciation and amortization charges, or EBITDA, some companies are targeting debt loads of 1 times EBITDA, he said.

Hanging over all of this is pressure from environmentally conscious investors to push carbon emissions lower, and the awareness that gasoline demand will likely erode as electric cars get more popular. “Companies don’t know where this is going and don’t trust the future too much,” LeBlanc added. 

 

Quote

For shareholders, the outlook is for more dividend hikes to protect 2021 gains in energy stocks, followed by stock buybacks rather than plunging into new drilling — and, ultimately, a shift in investment toward the future that many companies have already telegraphed.

“They’ll start spending capex on decarbonization,” Thummel said. “For these companies to get investors to return, you have to show a solid cash-flow-making business. It’s kind of a prove-it story for the industry.”

 

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

That was double thumbs up to what you bolded btw.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

2 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Rivians are cool too. For some reason I didn’t think of them when thinking about EV cars… I thought about Tesla, Polestar, Lucid, and Ford.
 

Rivian needs to improve their marketing a bit maybe.

 

Hell yeah.  Fam had a 1979 Buick Riviera.  Caught on fire on I-95, going to the beach.  I was 8 or so.

 

 

The burnt car was going for $80 last week...but $45,000 this week.

 

It has a good rim.

[tshile]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

We bout to find out if clear price gouging counts.

There are already laws on the books that say it doesn’t. 
 

it just gets murky on how things are defined. And there’s wiggle room. And good lawyers will make it hard to prosecute. 
 

but the idea that it doesn’t matter simply isn’t true. 
 

 

[Commander -JB-]

22 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Sometimes the beef can be a little veiny…

[Chump Bailey]

On 4/14/2022 at 2:03 PM, LadySkinsFan said:

Greed, it's mostly greed. Some supply chain issues etc.

 

Greed and short term profit chasing are the root cause of pretty much all our problems the last 5 decades and the nation is as oblivious as ever or worse actively carry the water for those that subscribe to this nonsense. I've no idea why so many think this course is sustainable. 

[NoCalMike]

Regardless of where people fall on this issue, it is probably going to end up doing the same thing to Biden as it did Obama, which is cost him any actual power to get legislation passed, past his first two years in office, but the tide will turn somewhere in his third year and and things will normalize after it is too late to matter.  The big difference however is I am not sure if Biden is a strong enough candidate to win re-election despite inflation and gas prices falling back to earth.  This is obviously not another Obama type candidate that can withstand the early mess he was elected into and still come out the other side a popular President.   The only hope is that Trump running in 2024 or Trump-wannabe DeSantis are seen as a no-go by the same people who said that about Trump in 2020.  Oh also the failed coup thing? It will likely have to fail a second time, because you know it is coming again, but worse, and much more quiet & procedural. 

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

On 4/15/2022 at 2:56 PM, Chump Bailey said:

 

Greed and short term profit chasing are the root cause of pretty much all our problems the last 5 decades and the nation is as oblivious as ever or worse actively carry the water for those that subscribe to this nonsense. I've no idea why so many think this course is sustainable. 

The last 5 decades?  Yes, it has been there, but anecdotally, my recent experience...

 

It has simply spiked right now.

 

It's not sustainable.

 

I hate worrying.  I want to stop worrying.

 

Bills up, rent up, no raises, patchwork to things that need to be fixed.  Bad times.

Edited April 18, 2022 by d0ublestr0ker0ll

[LD0506]

9 hours ago, d0ublestr0ker0ll said:

The last 5 decades?  Yes, it has been there, but anecdotally, my recent experience...

 

It has simply spiked right now.

 

It's not sustainable.

 

I hate worrying.  I want to stop worrying.

 

Bills up, rent up, no raises, patchwork to things that need to be fixed.  Bad times.

 

I hear ya, we all do and we all can point to examples wherever we are of things getting tougher, but there are things you can do to protect yourself.

 

Unfortunately they are largely the very things we have been trained to reject after decades of me-me-me consumer marketing greedocracy.

 

I've been discussing this with some of my neighbors, who are mostly single LOL (little ole ladies), feeling the pinch every way they turn. Pool your resources, you can save substantial amounts on groceries by buying in bulk and divvying it up amongst several households. Coordinate errands, shopping, etc. and do it together, save some gas and have some company for the ride. Personally I do a good bit of lawnmowing and handyman stuff for the LOLs nearby just to help them out since the locals are bangin em $40 a pop to cut the grass twice a month. They pitch in here and there just to cover gas and maintenance, maybe barter with something they have that another needs, etc. If and when one has an issue it gets discussed around the neighborhood to see A: If anyone else is seeing similar issues, or B:If anyone else has dealt with this and can recommend anything. 

 

Another bennie stemming from this is getting them out of their cocoons to meet others, reconnecting with the neighbors, sharing recipes or spring plants or whatever, just incremental quality of life improvements that you don't see by themselves but that add up over time. 

 

I know, I know, kumbayaddayadda, but I do what I do for my own mercenary self interest, but I am also not so self-centered to ignore the fact that when I lend a hand, the neighborhood that my family and I lives in gets better, safer, friendlier, I take a lot of my compensation there. It benefits me personally at times as well. Last year some of the local ferals came thru after dark spray painting stubby dicks on the new replaced curbs. Four other neighbors and I shared the cost of a new pressure washer, I cleaned up the graffiti, have the communal PW available and nobody got hosed. Like a lot of power equipment it might sit most of the time if I got it just for myself, now we all have the use of one. 

 

We're all in this together

We always were

[PeterMP]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:26 AM, Renegade7 said:

 

My understanding of what Biden did was he asked FTC to look into the following:

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/11/17/energy/oil-biden-ftc/index.html

 

My bet is if FTC found something worthy of criminal charges, they would hand it over to DOJ for pursuing in federal court.  This as opposed to making DOJ try to find something from scratch and likely getting rebuffed by a judge like you are mentioning. 

 

I agree with this model to set a precedent on how to go after the meat packing industry next (at minimum).  And making clear that charges are not off the table if and when going after other egregious sectors of the economy individually.

 

Turns out Biden administration is already doing that via DOJ and USDA, this is news to me (good news):

 

In one of the links in the below page:

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2021/12/10/recent-data-show-dominant-meat-processing-companies-are-taking-advantage-of-market-power-to-raise-prices-and-grow-profit-margins/

 

 

 

We bout to find out if clear price gouging counts.

 

 

I agree this won't be easy, and that's why I'm not surprised to even see updates in the Big Oil FTC investigations, and those aren't even smaller companies.

 

 

I agreed, a lot of companies are hiding as big enough players to be jus under the definition of monopolies and only get their hand bite when they got too far in acting like one (see recent anti-trust suits of companies like Facebook, Google, and Microsoft).

 

There is a thread about breaking some of these larger companies up (AWS at some point needs to be pried from Amazon), but that's borderline off-topic and to your point will also take a while (no way any of this gets resolved before the mid-term).

 

The people have spoken, inflation is more important to us then Ukraine, COVID, even terrorism, so government needs to act like it.  They also need to do a better job if communicating what we are doing about this.

 

It was easier to find that page on meat packing from the White House then articles about it.  Media is doing no help to this administration in constantly belaboring the point of inflation over anything that's going well in the economy while rarely if ever talking about the governments response to addressing it (even if limited and needs to go further).

 

The poultry thing is a result of another investigation by the FBI (what the FBI was investigating hasn't been publicized to my knowledge).  But a guy that worked for one of the poultry companies got caught up in an FBI investigation into something else and lied to the FBI several times.  Then he appears to have turned on the poultry industry to get a deal on lying to the FBI (about whatever the other investigation was) and spilled about the collusion.

 

However, once he agreed to testify against the company he was working for, they were able to get subpoenas for phone records and the such and found text and other messages between executives that showed the collusion.

 

That isn't a sustainable way to control inflation and collusion.

 

I don't doubt that collusion happens (at the level of prices for products and also at the level of wages for employees).  But w/o more whistle blowers or some pretty substantial changes in existing laws, it is hard to prove and so hard to do anything about.

[tshile]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:56 PM, Chump Bailey said:

the nation is as oblivious as ever or worse actively carry the water for those that subscribe to this nonsense. I've no idea why so many think this course is sustainable. 

a sizable portion of the country has been brain washed into thinking the only acceptable system is unfettered capitalism, that government is bad both in parts and the sum, and that anything that goes against the idea of chasing profits and profits = good is just something that will destroy our country. 
 

You see it in the threads here and it’s the core of most bull**** rhetoric from the conservatives. Including their on so precious “socialism!” argument. 
 

You can’t even get them to have a conversation about the idea that there are different reasons for prices to be raised, and that not all of those ideas are equal or necessarily “good”, or that some of them may actually be bad. 
 

They’re idiots. And there’s nothing we can do about it. It’s like dealing with an addict - if they don’t want to help themselves then you’re wasting your time.  You have to want to learn more which requires being open to an idea that conflicts with what you currently think, which is something they’re categorically bad at. 
 

[Chump Bailey]

46 minutes ago, tshile said:

They’re idiots. And there’s nothing we can do about it. It’s like dealing with an addict - if they don’t want to help themselves then you’re wasting your time.  You have to want to learn more which requires being open to an idea that conflicts with what you currently think, which is something they’re categorically bad at. 
 

 

Excellent post my friend and could not agree more.

[tshile]

8 hours ago, Chump Bailey said:

 

Excellent post my friend and could not agree more.

I personally think there’s tons of room to have conservative ideas to many of our problems. 
 

global warming - why is the conservative opinion that it doesn’t exist? What idiot thought that the best way to deal with the science and the easily understood ramifications, was to deny it all? Remember when under the Obama admin the  national security advisor testified that global warming was the number one security threat? Remember the conservatives reactions? Anyone reading the news about the global food shortages from the current war? Derp derp. And what leads to instability to most? Food shortages. 
 

Taxes - why is the conservative opinion that the real problem is that the people with the least money aren’t paying enough in taxes? Do they not understand math?

the Black Lives Matter movement - why is the conservative opinion that it’s not happening? Sure there’s room to nitpick casss here and there, I surely have, but on the whole to just deny a problem exists? Come on. 
 

The list goes on and on. 
 

There’s tons of room to provide a conservative alternative to all of our issues. 
 

they choose to deny they exist. 
 

the 2022 GOP will not put forth a legislative agenda, according to McConnell. He thinks that’s a bad idea. 
 

what idiot looks around right now and says to themselves - yeah I’m gonna vote for the guys that think telling us what they want to do is a bad idea. 

[NoCalMike]

I honestly don't even know if economics/the economy is as big of an election issue as the media & polls suggest it is anymore.  I know people will fill out a survey saying so, but if you look at how the GOP is winning elections currently, it isn't on economic issues beyond a few vague phrases.  If we want to use polls on the economy it seems like Democrats and not centrist Democrats, seem to be on the side of the majority of Americans, yet it never seems to matter come election time.

 

It's like when the 2009 Tea Party held signs about Taxes for about 48hours until people pointed out to them the actual tax policy of the two parties (generally speaking) and then they all pretty much admitted, ok, it's not actually about taxes.