The Official ES (or E...C) 2022 Free Agency Thread Signed G Andrew Norwell, Obada, Trai Turner...Goodbye Scherff, Kyle Allen, Tim Settle

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As a pure player-talent I am much more intrigued with Sweat over Payne.  But his immaturity does worry me some.

Yeah, I'm with you.  But there are 2 things which cause me pause:

 

1. Sweat's immaturity and general personality.  I'm not going to character assassinate the guy, but it seems like he doesn't always have what's best for the team in mind, and also sometimes comes off as somewhat uneducated as to what's going on.  

 

2. His impact on Young.  I think the two feed off of each other, and it sub-optimizes both of them. 

 

When you have that type of situation, you've got to make a choice, and I think Young's upside is higher.  So that's why I would move on from Sweat. 

 

NOTE: I don't think they're going to.  Because I think they're going to be enamored with the physical talent and possibilities, and think they can make it work with the two of them. I think the back-half of this season is going to be extremely telling, because Young should be fully back by then.  Even if he is available week 1 (which I kindof doubt, but who knows), it's going to take some time for him to fully get into the grove.  That injury is no longer career ending, but it does take some time to get everything back working the way it was before.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I do think though if you want to trade someone like Sweat you do it earlier than later.  It's a point that the PFF cap guy made on Standig's show in the context of Payne which is trade the player when his contract is still cheap and has room to breath -- like 2 years, etc.  That's the type of contracts that teams will give up more for in trades.

Yeah, I'm kindof with you, but I think I add the value to what you can get into the mix. What I fault the PFF cap guy for in not understanding context and value.   

 

For example, if you have a first round player, who after three years is very good but not great, and you think you are going to move on from him, fine.  However, there is value for having a very good player on a cheap contract on your team for 2 more years.  If you have to go to FA to replace that player, you're paying more. 

 

Now, if you can get a 1st round pick before the draft, it's probably a no brainer.  You have opened a hole, but you have the ability to close the hole through the draft, or at least can close some hole through the draft even if you sign a FA to fill THAT hole.  

 

Second rounder, I'll hear you out.  It might depend on where the second rounder is in the draft.  

 

Third and below, it's probably more valuable to keep the player on your team than make that trade.

 

The draft is a complete crap-shoot.  In every round, there are more players who do not live up to expectations than there are players who do.  And that tilts more towards "don't" than "Do" the further down the draft you get. So if you already have a "very good" player, and you have control for 2 more years, and it's a good contract, there is MASSIVE value to that.  And the value outstrips the value of a possible/maybe 3rd round pick.  

 

Which brings us to Payne vs. Sweat: 

 

Before last year, could they have gotten a first round pick for Payne?  I personally don't think so.  He's a good player, maybe very good, but he's been inconsistent. He also plays a non-pass rushing DT position.  While he's flashed, I don't think a team would go, "damn, Daron Payne is the last piece to my defensive unit which will lead us to the SB."  I could be wrong.  But for the role he plays, and the fact the Washington Red Commander Team's Defensive Line has never lived up to it's billing since he's been here, I think it's unlikely they would have gotten a first.

 

Maybe a second.  Though ...  I dunno.  I kindof feel like they wouldn't have.  I think it would have been more a 3rd/4th round.  If I was a team trading FOR Daron Payne, that's about where I think I would slot him.  Again, it's the position he plays, it's the player, it's the inconsistency, and it's also you would only have him under control for 2 years before you pay him.  If you're a team that wants a very good DT, just use your first round pick on it, and you probably can find the same type of player, cheaper, with 5 years of control.  Payne just isn't at the level of "he's such a huge difference maker we can't find that guy in the draft."  And that's WITH the caveat the draft is a complete crap shoot.  

 

So in my world, while I don't disagree with the "trade them earlier than later, get more value" position, I also say that trade has to bring you back more value than you are giving up.  And 2 yeas of Payne on a rookie deal vs. a 3rd round pick?  I'd take the 2 years of Payne, given the fact it's more than likely the 3rd round pick busts and you get nothing from him.  The safer bet is to take the 2 years of Payne, in that scenario.  

 

Now for Sweat: he is different because he plays a different position.  Edge Rusher is a more premium position than DT.  They cost more on the open market, and they are harder to sign.  Sweat might not be great, but as you said, he has all the physical tools. And I think he's respected as being "very good." He has had some good results, and some really good games. 

 

Here's another "value" thing that kindof flies against the PFF "trade early" mentality:  Sweat's 2022 base salary is $2M.  HIs cap his is $3.1M.  (Which, for those who are playing along at home, is actually LESS than Taylor Hienicke's.)  Could they have gotten a first for him prior to this draft? ehhhhh, maybe.  I don't know.  I'd say probably because of the salary.  But again, that ship has sailed.  If they were going to do it, they needed to do it before the draft. Because you can't trade him now for 2023 draft assets. I mean, you can.  But then you've opened a gaping hole at DE, not knowing if Young is going to be ready for the opener, and would have to pay a lot more to get the same production from a FA.

 

Young coming back from an ACL might have influenced a decision not to trade Sweat.  (I doubt it came up, ever.  But if it did, I think Young's injury status might have shut the conversation down immediately.)  

 

Now, could you get a first for him after this season?  Especially if he has a good year this year, I think there very well might be a team willing to spend a first for Sweat, at least a late first, and then give him an extension.  They would get him on the 5th year option of $10M salary.  They could easily extend him 4 years at the going rate, throw some money at the signing bonus, and from a cap perspective it would work out.  But he'd have to have a really good season for that to play out.  

 

Again, to me, it's all about context and value.  What is the value of having a "very good" player on your team for $2M cash and $3.1M salary cap hit?  If you don't get that value back in a trade, you've lost.

 

For Payne, his 2021 Daron had a salary of $2.4M and a salary cap hit of $4.5M.  If you can't get at least a first back before the 2021 draft, there is no way you're matching the value of having Payne on the team.  

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I know some agree with me on this and some vehemently don't which is that the money and the length of the contract actually does influence trade value.  The PFF cap guy basically doubled down on that point.  I don't really get the pushback I get on the point aside from thinking about baseball deals/contracts.  In baseball the length of what's left in the contract often isn't much of a plot line.

I think a lot of my issues with the PFF guys is it's a "one size fits all" approach, and lacks nuance and context.  

 

If you said, "I would trade a player early with the assumption I could get back the value it would take to replace the player at the same or less salary cap implication" I'd say, I'm totally down with that.

 

If you say "trade value is better earlier and if you know you're not signing a guy, you should move on from him earlier than latter" I say I don't buy into that statement because it doesn't take into account context and value.  

[Koolblue13]

Sweat is still an immature asshole and feeds off Youngs celebrity spotlight.

[Est.1974]

I’m all in favour of trading players who don’t want to here, irrespective of who they are.

[SkinsFTW]

9 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

I’m all in favour of trading players who don’t want to here, irrespective of who they are.

 

If they did that then they probably wouldn't have the roster for a pickup basketball game. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sweat is still an immature asshole and feeds off Youngs celebrity spotlight.

I think Sweat feeds off of his immaturity.  Which is why I think they should be separated.  

1 hour ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

If they did that then they probably wouldn't have the roster for a pickup basketball game. 

That's funny.  But I actually think there is evidence to the contrary. At least a little bit. If Terry really didn't want to be here, he wouldn't be demanding a new contract, he'd be demanding a trade.  McKissic had a "signed" deal with the Bills, who are a SB contender, and chose to return.

 

I think a lot of us underestimate how much the players really do like playing for Ron.  I think there is a culture building here.  I also think a lot of them know that they were basically dead from the get-go on offense when they lost their starting QB after 16 snaps of the season. 

 

I think it's not as bad as some make it out to be.  

 

It would be nice if some fans would be able to separate Dan from team, and support the team. Because I don't think the players would give a damn about any of the other stuff if they were winning and fans were coming to the games.    I think that would actually help with stadium experience, not playing 17 away games, 8 (or 9) of which in your own stadium.  

 

But I understand why that won't happen.  It is just unfortunate. 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think Sweat feeds off of his immaturity.  Which is why I think they should be separated.  

I agree. Let Allen play more DE with Payne and Mathis inside and hope that JWS or someone can excel as a pass rush specialist on long downs.

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I agree. Let Allen play more DE with Payne and Mathis inside and hope that JWS or someone can excel as a pass rush specialist on long downs.

I goofed my post.  I meant to say I think young feeds off of sweat’s immaturity.  

[Forever A Redskin]

13 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I agree. Let Allen play more DE with Payne and Mathis inside and hope that JWS or someone can excel as a pass rush specialist on long downs.

 

This is a joke right? Where is any evidence that Sweat is immature? Where is the proof that Sweat and Chase feed off of each other's immaturity?

 

Chase Young is a vocal leader on defense. I have seen nothing about Sweat being immature... Unless people are talking about his personal decision on the vaccine last year and basing his entire character off of that? Which would be absolutely bananas.

 

These all sound like fan-concocted narratives and it's annoying.

 

Chase rehabbing here vs. Colorado to start OTAs isn't a big deal. If Sweat returns for the remainder of OTAs this is much ado about nothing.

 

Y'all are a trip. Yeah let's completely blow up our defensive line off of rumors. NOT.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I goofed my post.  I meant to say I think young feeds off of sweat’s immaturity.  

I figured.

[CommDownMan]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I do think though if you want to trade someone like Sweat you do it earlier than later.  It's a point that the PFF cap guy made on Standig's show in the context of Payne which is trade the player when his contract is still cheap and has room to breath -- like 2 years, etc.  That's the type of contracts that teams will give up more for in trades.

 

I agree with your overall point for trades, but Sweat would likely be selling low at this point.  Who knows what a year later brings, but I'd be willing to bet this years stats will be an upward trajectory he'd still get more next year vs this year.  Not always the case, but last year was very much a mixed bag.

 

FTR I'm not saying trade/don't trade.  I just think if trade Sweat is the plan then now is not the time.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I’m going to quote the only thing Doc says which actually makes sense:

 

What have you won with them?  Nothing.  So why are they so important ?

 

 

I've never liked this logic.

[Conn]

I wouldn’t even think it’s controversial to say that Young is still immature, that seems self-evident. He’s energetic on the sideline, that doesn’t make him a leader. We hope he can grow into that. 

[moondog]

On 5/24/2022 at 1:17 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

Maybe.  But what if Ron asked to split the cap and Ballard says, "let me get back to you, I'm going to call the Panthers and Seahawks?"  

 

And that Dan-Wanna-Be down in Carolina just says, "he's better than Darnold.  Ok, anything you want."  Like Ron did? Then we are in the "don't even have Wentz" mode, probably reached for Pickett or Willis, and are staring down the prospect of TH starting the season at QB.  

 

Remember, Rossini and Keim both have confirmed other teams were interested.  (Even though Sheehan likes to pretend otherwise. And I think both reported it on HIS radio show.)

 

I'll take an extra $10M of salary cap space over that scenario playing out.  

 

And yeah, we were desperate because we were staring down having to draft a QB nobody loved, trying to sign a FA QB nobody wanted, or starting TH who is a good backup but not a starter.

 

That situation makes you desperate.  If you're desperate, you're desperate.  If you haven't eaten for 3 days, you're desperate for food. Being desperate isn't a crime.  It's just a state of being. 

…pretty sure my last sentence said that exact thing and I agree with you. You kinda expanded on my point. I’d love to have extra cap paid for by the colts but I’m much happier with the deal then some ****ized plan that fell through resulting in a first rounder utilized on a qb this year. 
 

Cheers. 

[Est.1974]

It looks like we have around 6-7mil in cap space. That currently includes a hefty 15mil for Collins which will reduce to 3mil post June 1st. Revised cap space becomes 18-19mil.

 

Payne - I wouldn’t give him a Jon Allen deal, however by comparison the Jon Allen deal had a first year cap hit of no more than 8mil. Payne currently counts more than that on his final year. So in theory an extension will not have any kind of impact on the 2022 salary cap situation.

 

Mclaurin - counts no more than 3/4mil already. The major WR contracts land with a first year hit not wildly afar from the 10mil range. So a deal for Terry eats another 7mil or so from the cap.

 

Deduct that from the 18/19mil and we should be easily able to secure both deals and go through the offseason still holding 10-12mil in space. Just get it done.

 

That’s without even restructuring other deals to make things work.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Est.1974

[KillBill26]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I agree. Let Allen play more DE with Payne and Mathis inside and hope that JWS or someone can excel as a pass rush specialist on long downs.

I would love to see that in the mix:

Young - Payne - Mathis - Allen

On 1st down. Especially with Payne wanting to prove he can do what Allen does and get that kind of money.   

[MrJL]

Allen apparently doesn't have the arms for pro DE.  I mean people have been suggesting things for years, and we had Ionnaddis and Settle.  If putting Allen at DE was a good idea, we'd a hve done it

[FootballZombie]

5 hours ago, Forever A Redskin said:

This is a joke right? Where is any evidence that Sweat is immature? Where is the proof that Sweat and Chase feed off of each other's immaturity?

 

The absolute kool-aid chugging contest those two shared for the entirety of last offseason. Predictions of re-writing the NFL record books and what-not

 

That combined w/ not showing up early in the pre-training camp slate last year painted a picture of dudes who felt like they had arrived before they did. 

 

I won't ding either of them for missing OTAs this year for personal reasons and rehab (I'm assuming Chase is in Colorado for altitude rehab) but I also think it is very evident that the pair do need to spend a bit more time ripening.

[Forever A Redskin]

21 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

The absolute kool-aid chugging contest those two shared for the entirety of last offseason. Predictions of re-writing the NFL record books and what-not

 

That combined w/ not showing up early in the pre-training camp slate last year painted a picture of dudes who felt like they had arrived before they did. 

 

I won't ding either of them for missing OTAs this year for personal reasons and rehab (I'm assuming Chase is in Colorado for altitude rehab) but I also think it is very evident that the pair do need to spend a bit more time ripening.

 

Meh I guess I can see it. I see the re-writing the record books as preseason confidence which is a good thing. Did they live up to their own hype? No. Let's hope that's eating at them this off-season. I think it is.

 

All I'm saying is I'm nowhere near close to labeling them as "problems" on the roster, and talking about trading either of them is absolute nonsense, imo.

[KillBill26]

35 minutes ago, MrJL said:

Allen apparently doesn't have the arms for pro DE.

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/jonathan-allen

 

53rd percentile.  Don't think that's a deal breaker.  And I'm guessing he would be better vs the run than the average d end.

35 minutes ago, MrJL said:

I mean people have been suggesting things for years, and we had Ionnaddis and Settle.  If putting Allen at DE was a good idea, we'd a hve done it

By drafting Mathis in the 2nd, the brass must think he will be a better NT than settle will ever be, and Ion isn't a NT.

 

The intrigue of that front four is each player would be respected vs both run and pass, and it would be a different look to keep offenses on their toes to change it up from the front 4 they will be seeing most often (not to mention 3 and 5 man fronts mixed in as well).

 

Variety and flexibility are good things.

 

I'm not saying it's a guarantee, I'm just saying I'd like to see it. 

[CommanderInTheRye]

18 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Just so you guys know (in case you didn't), I'm pretty sure the dolphin noise in the McKissic video is to bleep out profanity--probably said by fans...they do the same thing on Spongebob lol...

 

 

 

 

 

Ahh **** Califan you done spoiled my imaginings! 😋

 

After yesterday's mind warping digression I halfway thought some lucky dolphin was having "fun time" with a fan.

[Voice_of_Reason]

16 hours ago, moondog said:

…pretty sure my last sentence said that exact thing and I agree with you. You kinda expanded on my point. I’d love to have extra cap paid for by the colts but I’m much happier with the deal then some ****ized plan that fell through resulting in a first rounder utilized on a qb this year. 
 

Cheers. 

Yeah, I think I was just expanding on the point.  

[Koolblue13]

14 hours ago, MrJL said:

Allen apparently doesn't have the arms for pro DE.  I mean people have been suggesting things for years, and we had Ionnaddis and Settle.  If putting Allen at DE was a good idea, we'd a hve done it

Allen plays on the edge often.

[Dark Acre]

Jon Allen is going to eventually become this team's DL coach, then defensive coordinator.

 

And he will not tolerate *any* nonsense or not buying in to the scheme.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Dark Acre

[Est.1974]

My God the Browns gave TE David Njoku a 4 year 57mil deal with half of that guaranteed. That’s some serious money for a player with limited production so far in his career. 
 

In other news, we’ve done no business of note for quite some time.......

[Jericho]

5 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

My God the Browns gave TE David Njoku a 4 year 57mil deal with half of that guaranteed. That’s some serious money for a player with limited production so far in his career. 
 

In other news, we’ve done no business of note for quite some time.......

 

That's one of those WTF moments. I didn't really understand why the Browns tagged Njoku to begin with. He has that "potential", but he's been in the league 5 years now. How long are you going to try and wait for that potential? Hell, the Browns went out and blocked Njoku with Hooper two years ago. Ricky Seals-Jones even outproduced Njoku one year. And now he's getting top dollar for the next 4 years? So, in the best case scenario, Njoku finally breaks out in year 6 and maybe makes the contract just okay? He's an okay run-blocker and potentially a good receiver. He just hasn't really proved it over the course of a season. Seems like a decent player to have on the roster, just not a player you're paying $14 million for.