Next Day Thread: WFT Jedi Mind Tricks the Evil Empire (No, not the Yankees, the Raiders)

[KDawg]

Taylor Heinicke - Will leave the various discussions to him mostly in his thread. However: He had bad moments, he had jedi moments but ultimately he shook off the bad moments and led the team down the field. It's not all his doing of course, but a game where he was harassed, had a pick due to pressure hitting him and then almost threw a game ending pick it says a lot about his character and mental make up to help drive the team down into field goal range for the game winner.

 

Antonio Gibson - The guy is an excellent football player. But we over use him. Big time. He wears down during the course of the game. When he's fresh his lack of first line vision doesn't hurt him because he runs with such downhill power and keeps his legs churning. When he's tired his lack of first line vision hurts. But tired or not he is a dangerous man if he gets into space. I like Gibson. Will continue to like Gibson. But man I'd love to see us decrease his usage % to maximize his output. He finished at 3.8 yards per carry. It felt like he had more than that due to his runs in the first half. The Raiders didn't stop him more in the second half, his fatigue slowed him. This is a big time need. He NEEDS to be fresh to 100% maximize his potential of destroying an opposing defense. 

 

McLaurin was quiet and our receivers didn't have great games. Our biggest three impact receivers were Logan Thomas, Adam Humphries and John Bates. Nice to have that safety valve without McKissick and McLaurin getting a ton of attention. Humphries is never going to wow us but he is consistently available in big moments and we shouldn't overlook that. 

 

Our offensive line was bad. Granted we faced two premier pass rushers. In essence the two guys who are playing like what we thought Young and Sweat would be. So part of this is on personnel not doing their job, but moreso this is on Turner. The tackles seemed to have too many dual assignments (they are responsible for two and they close on the inside threat at the last second in pass pro). Lucas was also often left one on one with Crosby entirely too many times for my liking. 

 

I'm also not sure where Scherff's head is sometimes in the games. He has entirely too many "ugh" moments during the course of games for my liking. The standout one in this game was the false start. 

 

Kendall Fuller needs to keep his head up when he tackles otherwise I thought he had another great game. Also: Welcome to William Jackson III who finally had a second good game. Keep building on that.

 

I think McCain is the weak link of the secondary and its not close. Could use an upgrade at FS. I don't mind McCain as a backup/spell guy. He can play. But he has too many "oops" moments for me to be the guy back there. Still lots of season left so lets see how it plays out.

 

Cole Holcomb had moments of utter brilliance in coverage. He had a beautiful play to break up a touchdown pass. But right before that he got lucky with a ball placement where he didn't even turn to find the ball and just barely broke the pass up and he got torched down the stretch. He also shot a gap and had a tackle for loss lined up in the backfield but whiffed for the second time in two weeks. If Holcomb is going to take a turn for the better he'll need to make those plays. That offsets some of his coverage issues. He comes into the backfield out of control like he's surprised he's through the LoS. If he can calm that he can really develop.

 

Jamin Davis had brilliant plays and awful plays. Very little in between. Need more from him after weeks of decent to good play if we are going to keep this streak.

 

The defensive tackles were great. They are disruptive, powerful and intimidating. The strongest unit on our team.

 

Jon Allen summed up the kick at the end, too. "I didn't even know his name". He does now. Good kick Brian Johnson. 

 

That's four in a row. 

 

Awards:

 

*** - Daron Payne

** - Logan Thomas

* - Brian Johnson

 - Cole Holcomb

  - Brandon Scherff

   - Cornelius Lucas - Drew a tough assignment but he got beat regularly. 

 

Bonus: * Antonio Gibson (deserves recognition for his game but he is getting worn down late and it's evident. He had 3.8 yards per carry on the game), ** Jon Allen, * Matty Ioannidis, * Kendall Fuller (would be more if he tackled with his head up, * William Jackson, *** - Adam Humphries (CLUTCH)

 

Season to Date:

 

* x12 - Terry McLaurin

* x10 - Jon Allen

* x8 - Taylor Heinicke

* x6 - JD McKissick 

* x6 - Kam Curl

* x4 - Tress Way

* x4 - Logan Thomas

* x3 - Daron Payne

* x3 - Erick Flowers

* x3 - "The Fan"

* x3 - Antonio Gibson

* x3 - Adam Humphries

* x1 - Brian Johnson

* x1 - Benjamin St Juste

* x1 - DeAndre Carter

* x1 - Jamin Davis

* x1 - Shaka Toney

* x1 - Matt Ioannidis

 x1 - Joey Slye

 x1- William Jackson III

 x2 - Dax Milne

 x2 - Brandon Scherff

 x2- Kendall Fuller

 x3 - Cornelius Lucas

 x3 - Dustin Hopkins

 x3 - Charles Leno, Jr.

 x4- Cole Holcomb

 x4 - Chase Young

 x5 - Landon Collins

 x5 - Bobby McCain

 x7 - Jon Bostic 

Edited December 6, 2021 by KDawg

[Koolblue13]

Big John Bates had a 90.5 blocking grade and is going to be getting some *'s from you soon.

 

Don't know how you can knock Cole in this game. That play he couldn't get his head around, he did the first time making the QB hold the ball longer, then he had to turn back and find the WR.

[Ball Security]

An underrated play was Bates catch to begin the last drive.  Wasn’t a good ball and he made the play.   
 

This defense is playing to expectations. I understand that Waller was out and Russell Wilson’s finger is banged up, but holding teams to 15 points in back to back games is impressive, especially when they’ve had 10+ days to prepare.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Big John Bates had a 90.5 blocking grade and is going to be getting some *'s from you soon.

 

Don't know how you can knock Cole in this game. That play he couldn't get his head around, he did the first time making the QB hold the ball longer, then he had to turn back and find the WR.

He had two great plays and 7 awful plays. The 7 isn’t counted but the missed tackle and getting beat in coverage at least 3 times. His bad outweighs his good. Until he flips that he will continue to get criticized from me at the linebacker position.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Am I the only one who thinks Carr dyed his hair black and is going for some terrible 70s look?  

[Inigo Montoya]

J Davis whiffed soooo many times yesterday when he was in the right position. Being in the right position is what he had to learn... tackling, I hope he already knew how to do that!

 

I thought the run play calling in the 2nd half wasnt as good, but maybe its Gibson wearing down. 

[CTskin]

we won a game on short rest, across the country vs a team with extended rest and we lost the turnover battle. It was ugly, but to win vs that type of adversity is rarely witnessed by this fanbase.

 

im a heiny guy, but this wasn’t his best. I really wanted to see him feast vs a bad raiders D. Regardless, on the final drive he turned up the moxie and delivered. That’s the intangible that so many of us have touted.

Holcomb is pretty solid in coverage, but we can’t expect him to cover renfrow. At least 3 of renfrows big plays (including the PI) were vs holcomb; this is a matchup we can never even hope to win.

 

this is the kind of scheming that I just don’t see out of turner. Scheming mismatches, picks, QB option, etc. would open up the field so much more.

 

turner is running this offense like Alex smith is still the qb and it’s so frustrating. Run up the gut or 6 yard pass; we don’t run deep routes frequently enough to keep defenses honest.

[fearlessNelms]

Heinicke didn't play great and indeed almost threw a game ending pick. However, he once again led us down the field when we needed it for the game winning FG- without Thomas, who was his favorite receiver for the game. That's what the very good and great QB's do- still pull out a win when they didn't play their best. 

 

Heinicke has the "ice water in his veins" mentality and that is not an easy trait to find in a QB. I said it before, the intensity, competitiveness, leadership and toughness he plays with supersedes any physical shortcomings he has. He also got pounded yesterday, taking several hits that I wasn't sure he'd get up from. The dude showed some real toughness and I'm loving that he's our QB right now.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Only saw the 2nd half and not the 1st half.  Felt like we should've blitzed more towards the end.

 

LB group without Collins saw Davis get 90% of the snaps and Hudson get 10%.  Feels like we didn't do any of the Buffalo Nickel stuff we did with Collins.  Everett played a decent amount, I was hoping in situations like that we'd keep the Nickel in coverage more and find ways to attack with Davis or Holcomb.  Feels like the coverage scheme was rather conservative.  Does that check with what people saw?

 

- It's such a pity Logan Thomas's knee is really hurt.  I was loving the 2 TE tandem of him and Bates.

- Curtis Samuel had 20 offensive snaps against the Seahawks and 20 snaps again vs the Raiders.  Does the snap limit lift against Dallas or is this 20 snaps again?  As we're now in the playoff hunt, the idea of keeping him healthy past the regular season has to be factored in, but I'm eager to see what the offense look like when he's off the snap limitations.  And we're using him in a variety of methods, including routes more down field.

[Chris 44]

2 hours ago, Ball Security said:

An underrated play was Bates catch to begin the last drive.  Wasn’t a good ball and he made the play.   
 

This defense is playing to expectations. I understand that Waller was out and Russell Wilson’s finger is banged up, but holding teams to 15 points in back to back games is impressive, especially when they’ve had 10+ days to prepare.

Dallas getting 10 days also.

[Leonard Washington]

Bates is a nice safety net. It will interesting to see how he performs once teams start paying attention to him. He is an effective blocker. 
 

I’m frustrated with Scherff. He looks like a guy who is doing the bare minimum at times. I just don’t see the same hustle and nastiness he had earlier in his career.

 

The coaches may not like how Patterson is looking in practice or games. I thought he would get a few more touches. 

[PartyPosse]

4 minutes ago, Leonard Washington said:

I’m frustrated with Scherff. He looks like a guy who is doing the bare minimum at times. I just don’t see the same hustle and nastiness he had earlier in his career.

I still seem him being very physical and aggressive, but I agree about the frustration. He takes a lot of dumb penalties.

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

I think McCain is the weak link of the secondary and its not close. Could use an upgrade at FS. I don't mind McCain as a backup/spell guy. He can play. But he has too many "oops" moments for me to be the guy back there. Still lots of season left so lets see how it plays out.

I really focused in on him when I was watching at the stadium and man the amount of times he was just completely running around, not really being a safety value for anyone or any zone was wild. He looks like how Collins did in the first 6 games. It's not pretty.

[tomwvr]

1 hour ago, CTskin said:

we won a game on short rest, across the country vs a team with extended rest and we lost the turnover battle. It was ugly, but to win vs that type of adversity is rarely witnessed by this fanbase.

 

im a heiny guy, but this wasn’t his best. I really wanted to see him feast vs a bad raiders D. Regardless, on the final drive he turned up the moxie and delivered. That’s the intangible that so many of us have touted.

Holcomb is pretty solid in coverage, but we can’t expect him to cover renfrow. At least 3 of renfrows big plays (including the PI) were vs holcomb; this is a matchup we can never even hope to win.

 

this is the kind of scheming that I just don’t see out of turner. Scheming mismatches, picks, QB option, etc. would open up the field so much more.

 

turner is running this offense like Alex smith is still the qb and it’s so frustrating. Run up the gut or 6 yard pass; we don’t run deep routes frequently enough to keep defenses honest.

With our beat up OL I think it’s not safe to take a lot of deep shots. TH had a lot of pressure on him yesterday and unless we are going to move the pocket or do a lot of roll outs there is no way he has time to go deep sitting in the pocket.

[CTskin]

12 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

With our beat up OL I think it’s not safe to take a lot of deep shots. TH had a lot of pressure on him yesterday and unless we are going to move the pocket or do a lot of roll outs there is no way he has time to go deep sitting in the pocket.

Very fair about the OL, but again this is something that should be figured out by the OC exactly as you explained. An avg OL shouldn’t prohibit Turner from running his full playbook, which is why I think this is just Turner implementing his grinding, low scoring, ToP controlling system.

 

imagine if heiny ran a qb option. He’s athletic, he could rip off chunks. Remember Daniel Jones thrashing us every time… 

 

as Ive said for the past few weeks, it all feels so basic, so vanilla. We’re winning, so cheers to that, but i don’t think we would be if the D wasn’t playing phenomenally.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[NickyJ]

Adam Humphries is what Gruden dreamed of Ryan Grant turning into. Nothing special, just a simple dependable guy. The only difference is the biggest difference: Humphries does his thing when it actually matters.

[petey hodge]

2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Am I the only one who thinks Carr dyed his hair black and is going for some terrible 70s look?  

and eyeliner too!

 

 

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, CTskin said:

we won a game on short rest, across the country vs a team with extended rest and we lost the turnover battle. It was ugly, but to win vs that type of adversity is rarely witnessed by this fanbase.

 

im a heiny guy, but this wasn’t his best. I really wanted to see him feast vs a bad raiders D. Regardless, on the final drive he turned up the moxie and delivered. That’s the intangible that so many of us have touted.

Holcomb is pretty solid in coverage, but we can’t expect him to cover renfrow. At least 3 of renfrows big plays (including the PI) were vs holcomb; this is a matchup we can never even hope to win.

 

this is the kind of scheming that I just don’t see out of turner. Scheming mismatches, picks, QB option, etc. would open up the field so much more.

 

turner is running this offense like Alex smith is still the qb and it’s so frustrating. Run up the gut or 6 yard pass; we don’t run deep routes frequently enough to keep defenses honest.

From what I could see on tv the Raiders are a very physical, grabby type of defense, especially in the secondary. They got their share of penalties too but I think TH had a tough time deciding where to go with the ball because of the Raiders physical style defense. They also brought a lot of heat and knocked him around pretty good and TH hung in there very well. This kind of game is gonna make us tougher I think. 

I agree with you about Turner not scheming against mismatches. I believe he did it once yesterday but we should make a habit out of getting Humphries on a linebacker if possible. Once TH sees that it'll be easy pitch and catch stuff. Humphries was a tremendous signing for us and is a big upgrade over Steve Sims Jr from last year just because he catches the ball. 

We need a TE or two moving forward....Richard Rodgers? Jordan Reed? Chris Cooley?

36 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Very fair about the OL, but again this is something that should be figured out by the OC exactly as you explained. An avg OL shouldn’t prohibit Turner from running his full playbook, which is why I think this is just Turner implementing his grinding, low scoring, ToP controlling system.

 

imagine if heiny ran a qb option. He’s athletic, he could rip off chunks. Remember Daniel Jones thrashing us every time… 

 

as Ive said for the past few weeks, it all feels so basic, so vanilla. We’re winning, so cheers to that, but i don’t think we would be if the D wasn’t playing phenomenally.

It's almost like a repeat of last year in that RR plays it tight on offense waiting for the defense to set us up to score. A little too much game management and not enough shots down field. It very easily could've gone the other way yesterday but our kicker came through.

[Warhead36]

Guys like Humphries and Bates are just super clutch. Humphries catches like one or two passes a game but they always seem to be 3rd down conversions on scoring drives. Bates big catch to open the game winning drive was huge, was similar to his catch on that 3rd and long in the I believe Panthers game?

 

Gibson is really getting better as a runner, but I still don't love the way we're using him. When he can plant his foot and cut he is awesome, a thing of beauty to watch run(reminds me of a young Leveon Bell in that way). Would like to give him fewer carries up the middle and instead have him split out wide and run routes more. That TD catch was beautiful, such a good route and he has good hands. His talent is tremendous but we're taking a stallion and trying to turn him into an ox. Ideally in the offseason we sign a real bellcow to compliment him, get an Ingram to his Kamara.

 

Heinicke was fine for the most part. Missed some throws though and was high other times, and was almost pick 6d on the last drive. But the dude is clutch AF and the team rallies around him. Sometimes you just find magic.

 

The defense was tremendous, but I was annoyed that we gave up points at the end of the 1st half when we had them on 2nd and long multiple times. Our DT rotation is just destroying teams and the secondary played a clean game. McCain in particular I think had his best game of the season.

 

Davis was....up and down. His speed and athleticism is apparent but he's still slow reacting to plays. He missed a couple open field tackles but also had some really nice plays, I think he had a big stop on the Raiders last drive to help keep them out of the end zone. We just gotta be patient with him. I think by year 3 he could be a real good player.

 

[Leonard Washington]

23 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Davis was....up and down. His speed and athleticism is apparent but he's still slow reacting to plays. He missed a couple open field tackles but also had some really nice plays, I think he had a big stop on the Raiders last drive to help keep them out of the end zone. We just gotta be patient with him. I think by year 3 he could be a real good player.

 

There was a play where Carr scrambled and Davis was chasing. I for sure thought Davis was going to walk him down and lay a punishing hit. Instead Carr easily pulled away for first down yardage  and Davis was clearly coasting.  

[petey hodge]

Trey Quinn... Say His Name!!!

TREY QUINN

 

This was who we hoped would be our Renfrow... our HUMPPPPP before hump

 

[markmills67]

So proud of the way we have played in this 4 game winning streak, Heinicke and his low round picks and journeymen coming up trumps again. And also a massive shout out to Allen, Payne and Loannidis, we have to keep these 3 DT together full stop. 

 

Also in my opinion, for our Skins to win against the Cowboys I think we'll need to score at least 27 points, I'm hopeful but this weekend is going to be very, very hard to get a win. 

 

Bus here's hoping 🙏🙏🙏🙏

 

HTTR 

[Tress Is The Way]

No stars at all for flowers? Flowers played his nads off yesterday 

Edited December 6, 2021 by ZarG3

[NewCliche21]

2 minutes ago, ZarG3 said:

No stars at all for flowers? Flowers played his nads off yesterday 

 

Was Flowers the one who got in the face of one of the Raiders after a hit on Heinecke?  Stood up for him but didn't draw a flag, loved whoever that was.

And thank you, KDawg, as always.  Love your insights.

[dunfer]

3 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Am I the only one who thinks Carr dyed his hair black and is going for some terrible 70s look?  

he's trying to channel the Alzado