The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Josh Allen size, arm, mobility puts him in another dimension from Taylor.  the obvious comparison to me for Taylor's style including size, arm strength, decision making, etc is Colt McCoy, they are like twins IMO.  McCoy also a good backup IMO.

 

(Offensive rankings chart)

 

The wild part about that chart is that the offense averages about 10 more yards per game with Heinicke than with Wentz.

 

EDIT: to be more specific, the offense with Wentz had higher highs and lower--sometimes much lower--lows. With Heinicke it's more consistent. Three of Wentz's games the offense was held to under 300 yards, as with Heinicke the offense was only held below 300 yards once.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

The wild part about that chart is that the offense averages about 10 more yards per game with Heinicke than with Wentz.

 

Another way to word this:

 

The wild part about that chart is that the offense is averaging about 10 more yards per game with Robinson in the lineup

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Another way to word this:

 

The wild part about that chart is that the offense is averaging about 10 more yards per game with Robinson in the lineup

 

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Another way to word this:

 

The wild part about that chart is that the offense is averaging about 10 more yards per game with Robinson in the lineup

 

Not really lol...Robinson was in for Wentz's last two games. His yardage totals in those games compared to the first two games with Heinicke:

 

Tenn: 22 yds (total offensive yards: 385)

Chicago: 60 yds  (total offensive yards: 214)

 

Green Bay: 73 yds (total offensive yards: 364)

Indy: 20 yds (total offensive yards: 362)

 

[Thinking Skins]

So I'm looking at last year and Taylor's second game of the year, against NYG. And I remember that game and the screams at the penalty that gave us a second chance. But then I just looked at his stat line. 34/46, 74%, 336 yards, 2TD, 1 INT. And what comes to me is a question that's the opposite of what I asked @Skinsinparadise yesterday.

 

Is there anything that Heinicke can do tomorrow or in 2 weeks (or both) that can cement his job as starter at least til the end of the season?

 

If he has this stat line, we win the game, and maybe Robinson or Gibson has 100 yards. Say its a 28-10 game, with somebody like Gibson and Samuel taking passes for about 15 yards and making guys miss so it turns into two TDs.

 

Say he still puts some deep balls to Terry in risk's way and doesn't run as much as we would like, but has this 300 yard game in a win. Is that enough to silence the critics? 

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Not really lol...Robinson was in for Wentz's last two games. His yardage totals in those games compared to the first two games with Heinicke:

 

Tenn: 22 yds (total offensive yards: 385)

Chicago: 60 yds  (total offensive yards: 214)

 

Green Bay: 73 yds (total offensive yards: 364)

Indy: 20 yds (total offensive yards: 362)

 

 

You realize he was returning from being shot, right?

[mistertim]

6 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Nope, don't even slightly agree.

 

I see WAAAAY too many make that insane jump of "Are you really comparing (fill in the blank) to (much better player)" all the time, to the point that I started adding disclaimers to some of my posts, saying things like "And, no, you chuckleheads lol...I am not comparing the two". I understood exactly what he was commenting on when I read his "turnover worthy" post. And I understand exactly why some here interpreted it the wrong way and are hellbent on insisting their interpretation is the right one.

 

And yet I've never had any convincing answer when I ask "then why did you bring this other QB up?"

 

Because of course it's a comparison.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

So I'm looking at last year and Taylor's second game of the year, against NYG. And I remember that game and the screams at the penalty that gave us a second chance. But then I just looked at his stat line. 34/46, 74%, 336 yards, 2TD, 1 INT. And what comes to me is a question that's the opposite of what I asked @Skinsinparadise yesterday.

 

Is there anything that Heinicke can do tomorrow or in 2 weeks (or both) that can cement his job as starter at least til the end of the season?

 

If he has this stat line, we win the game, and maybe Robinson or Gibson has 100 yards. Say its a 28-10 game, with somebody like Gibson and Samuel taking passes for about 15 yards and making guys miss so it turns into two TDs.

 

Say he still puts some deep balls to Terry in risk's way and doesn't run as much as we would like, but has this 300 yard game in a win. Is that enough to silence the critics? 

 

Taylor I think just needs to be on the winning side of games to hold his job. I think its real simple for him.  IMO he hasn't matched the heights of his better games last year, Giants game included but also hasn't sunk to his lows of last year ala the Dallas' game.  He's been consistently IMO a C minus player, sometimes a hair above that sometimes a hair worse and that's been enough when the rest of the team plays B plus to A ball. 

 

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

You realize he was returning from being shot, right?

 

I know you were high on him too, I was likewise really high on Robinson and when our third round pick was coming up, he was among three players I pushed for them to draft at that point.  So I was jazzed when they took him.  He clearly wasn't who he was at Alabama early this season, but the version of him of late is the Alabama version.  no doubt I am sure the gun shots slowed him down and his comeback is remarkable.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

4 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Okay back to almost INTs. I wanted to come here and say the same thing but knew it would be taken out of context for obvious reasons. I won't add any disclamiers and I shouldn't have to. I come here to discuss on how I see it. I have no problem comparing a play or a pass or whatever that I see someone else do it or does it better or not. In my book that is not saying they are them. You can always find a QB that has a similar playing style or throws. It should never be taken out of context. No one should be saying Taylor IS Tom Brady lol which no one is and probably won't be. But we can all hope to get someone like a Tom Brady - a franchise QB that is really good who can be part of the team for years to come and get us some SB rings too. 

 

The search continues.... enjoy or not the moxie ride until then.

 

 

I can't think of many QBs less like Heinicke than Brady in playing style, so why anyone would use him when talking about TH?

[LD0506]

Just as an aside, it's become part of my morning coffee-fueled routine to catch up with this thread where a flock of football-philosophers debate Schrödinger's Quarterback ad infinitum

 

Round and round it goes

[Califan007 The Constipated]

29 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

You realize he was returning from being shot, right?

 

Your post made it seem that his insertion into the lineup provided another 10 yards per game when Heinicke was behind center...I was showing that his rushing contribution didn't play anymore of a role in those two games with Heinicke than it did with his two games with Wentz, yet the yardage totals in those games with Heinicke remained relatively high...I guess you could say he was still playing at the same level of recovering from a gun shot wound for those first 4 games--2 with each QB. I thought maybe the offense was fortunate to have Robinson take on more yardage as Heinicke's game started regressing a bit, but even against the Cowboys when we had 142 rushing yards we still didn't gain over 300 total offensive yards.

 

Long story short, it's more than just Robinson that differentiates the yardage totals...like I said, with Wentz it was higher highs and lower lows. In four of his 6 games the offense scored a grand total of 10 points in the first half. 8 quarters of play and only 10 combined points. That dictates a lot of what the offense is gonna do in terms of the run game. Yet the games with Wentz that had the most rushing yards gained the least amount of total offensive yards...one due to Wentz getting injured but it wasn't like the offense dropped off a cliff after his injury in that game. It sucked all 60 minutes.

 

 

28 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

And yet I've never had any convincing answer when I ask "then why did you bring this other QB up?"

 

Because of course it's a comparison.

 

You needed to read the rest of the thread lol...and just because you aren't convinced doesn't mean the reason isn't valid.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

Wentz before Robinson returned lol...

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

You needed to read the rest of the thread lol...and just because you aren't convinced doesn't mean the reason isn't valid.

 

I've read the rest of it and I'm in the same boat as KDawg: given the poster in question, I definitely don't buy the whole "aw shucks, I wasn't making a comparison!" routine.

[Voice_of_Reason]

45 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Not really lol...Robinson was in for Wentz's last two games. His yardage totals in those games compared to the first two games with Heinicke:

 

Tenn: 22 yds (total offensive yards: 385)

Chicago: 60 yds  (total offensive yards: 214)

 

Green Bay: 73 yds (total offensive yards: 364)

Indy: 20 yds (total offensive yards: 362)

 

Yeah, but he was not himself after being shot twice.  
 

Ron even commented he could see the explosiveness return.

 

Also, it was his first 2 games in the NFL ever. And again, after being shot twice.

[DJHJR86]

On 12/1/2022 at 8:11 AM, KDawg said:

You are such a Heinicke lover that its really difficult to have a good conversation with you. In fact, it's impossible. I get it. Heinicke is your savior. I hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving at the Heinicke homestead.

 

North Dakota State alumni?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, but he was not himself after being shot twice.  
 

Ron even commented he could see the explosiveness return.

 

Also, it was his first 2 games in the NFL ever. And again, after being shot twice.

 

Yeah, you can read what I wrote above as well lol...but long story short, chalking up the 10 extra yards (which, let's face it, isn't much at all) to Robinson being in the lineup doesn't really hold water. It's more about offensive consistency than anything in my eyes. Wentz did not provide that (or rather, the offense was not nearly as consistent when he was in the lineup for various reasons). Turner calling plays differently plays a role. Heinicke knowing the offense better plays a role. and so on and so on. But again, it's just 10 yards difference, not enough yards to split between 4 or 5 different reasons. I was mainly saying it's wild that 1) our offensive yardage output remained in the bottom 3rd of the league regardless of who was QB--almost expected it to tilt heavily in Wentz's favor until I saw how inconsistent the offense was during his 6 starts...and 2) a significantly better passing offense (yardage wise anyway) didn't benefit the offensive ranking overall.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[LD0506]

Not to dispute any of the expert opinions here, but to me and my admittedly fan eyes the single biggest factor has been sustaining drives, whether they end in points or not. Just the ability to get first downs by any means necessary keeps grinding the ToP, gets the O into the flow, rests the D so they can play like mad dogs every series and keeps Heinicke's eyes on more attainable goals within his skillset. 

 

Yeah, there's a list of things we all want but we ain't sittin' on Santa's lap

[redskinss]

2 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

Not to dispute any of the expert opinions here, but to me and my admittedly fan eyes the single biggest factor has been sustaining drives, whether they end in points or not. Just the ability to get first downs by any means necessary keeps grinding the ToP, gets the O into the flow, rests the D so they can play like mad dogs every series and keeps Heinicke's eyes on more attainable goals within his skillset. 

 

Yeah, there's a list of things we all want but we ain't sittin' on Santa's lap

There's no doubt about that, we definitely have been sustaining drives better and dominating time of possession. 

That would be my largest fear about returning to Wentz, if he doesn't play better because the cast around him is playing better and continues to take sacks at record pace we'll almost certainly be worse off with him than heinicke. 

[DJHJR86]

I don't remember who said it but it was pages back...the 2020 playoff game Heinicke was the ceiling for him.  That's the one thing everyone can agree on that is probably his strength: mobility.  He hasn't utilized that enough this year.  Hardly at all.  I think Wentz has more rushing yards than he has this season.  His arm strength is below average.  He constantly throws from his back foot which either leads to interceptions or passes that sail over the receivers heads.  He also has a tendency to lead his receivers into huge hits.  If you are expecting the offense under him to improve dramatically with him suddenly becoming a better pocket passer...bad news: it ain't happening.  However, the offense under him can improve if he started using his mobility to rush more.  They need to do what the Falcons did with Mariota more.  Designed QB runs.  If he's facing pressure, he needs to rush more.  He had 2 or 3 of those plays against the Falcons where he didn't run but threw the ball away.  That, IMO, is the only way the offense is going to improve with him behind center.  

 

Edit: I'm going to bookmark this post the next time someone calls me a "hiver" or "irrational Heinicke lover" the next time I offer the slightest criticism of any other quarterback on the roster.

Edited December 2, 2022 by DJHJR86

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Yeah, you can read what I wrote above as well lol...but long story short, chalking up the 10 extra yards (which, let's face it, isn't much at all) to Robinson being in the lineup doesn't really hold water. It's more about offensive consistency than anything in my eyes. Wentz did not provide that (or rather, the offense was not nearly as consistent when he was in the lineup for various reasons). Turner calling plays differently plays a role. Heinicke knowing the offense better plays a role. and so on and so on. But again, it's just 10 yards difference, not enough yards to split between 4 or 5 different reasons. I was mainly saying it's wild that 1) our offensive yardage output remained in the bottom 3rd of the league regardless of who was QB--almost expected it to tilt heavily in Wentz's favor until I saw how inconsistent the offense was during his 6 starts...and 2) a significantly better passing offense (yardage wise anyway) didn't benefit the offensive ranking overall.

 

So why does it hold water that it's Heinicke despite Wentz' superior passing numbers?

 

 

320 yards more in the same amount of games. 3 more touchdowns. 

 

How do you think, in your words, the offense is averaging ten more yards per game "with Heinicke"?

 

I just don't understand.

16 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

North Dakota State alumni?

This would make sense if I wanted Wentz to be our quarterback.

 

 

[Ball Security]

Wentz had a healthy Dotson for four games.  Heinicke did not for the first three games.

 

Nick Martin did not play center in the Lions game.  Chase Roullier did. They had their starting line for that game and couldn’t get a first down in their first five drives against Detroit.  A team that gives up 29 points a game.

 

The team is in better shape now than it was in weeks 4-7, no doubt.  Larson has stabilized the interior line play.  But let’s not act like the offense was full of bums in the first six games and magically turned great starting with the Packers game.  There was no Dotson, Thomas, and Turner in that game.  But the offense was to put up a TD plus more than it could in the previous four games.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, LD0506 said:

Not to dispute any of the expert opinions here, but to me and my admittedly fan eyes the single biggest factor has been sustaining drives, whether they end in points or not. Just the ability to get first downs by any means necessary keeps grinding the ToP, gets the O into the flow, rests the D so they can play like mad dogs every series and keeps Heinicke's eyes on more attainable goals within his skillset. 

 

Yeah, there's a list of things we all want but we ain't sittin' on Santa's lap

Creating manageable third downs helps sustain drives.  Running the ball effectively creates manageable third downs.  The below stats don’t even take into account which QB had more manageable third downs, but safe to say the QB regularly handing it off to an effective running game is the one with the easier task.

 

2022 3rd down stats

 

36/59  61%   373    4 TDs    2 picks    9 sacks

 

28/52  53%   298    1 TD      2 picks    6 sacks

 

 

Anyone care to guess who’s who?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[DJHJR86]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This would make sense if I wanted Wentz to be our quarterback.

 

That would be the only other rational response of the following exchange  (paraphrasing):

YOU: We don't know what Wentz would look like with a better rushing offense and protection.

 

ME: We've seen what he did with a solid rushing offense and it only amounted to 10 points on offense.

 

YOU: You are such a Heinicke lover that its really difficult to have a good conversation with you. In fact, it's impossible. I get it. Heinicke is your savior. I hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving at the Heinicke homestead.

[KDawg]

Just now, DJHJR86 said:

 

That would be the only other rational response of the following exchange  (paraphrasing):

YOU: We don't know what Wentz would look like with a better rushing offense and protection.

 

ME: We've seen what he did with a solid rushing offense and it only amounted to 10 points on offense.

 

YOU: You are such a Heinicke lover that its really difficult to have a good conversation with you. In fact, it's impossible. I get it. Heinicke is your savior. I hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving at the Heinicke homestead.

 

It wouldn't be. The rational response is that I would be curious what Wentz could do given this version of the offense.

 

I also said that I think the best thing for the team is to forget Wentz exists entirely and move on from him.

 

*shrug*

 

Curiosity does not equate to anything other than that. 

[Warhead36]

We got people here seriously comparing Heinicke to Josh Allen? 

 

Yeah, I'm out. If I stay active in this thread I'm gonna get myself banned for sure LOL.