The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2

[zCommander]

17 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

We are the only team that supposedly had Howell ranked high. He was the 5th or 6th qb drafted.  Wish him well but reality says it just be a one year thing.

 

 

NO. It was not just our team who had him ranked higher....

What can Sam Howell bring to an NFL franchise?

There's a lot to like about Howell despite his uneven 2021 season. His touch on deep balls is a real strength, says USA Today's Natalie Miller. So are his intangibles, according to Breer. Although the Tar Heels toiled at times during Howell's final season, his willingness to commit to a different role — one that may have led to him dropping down draft boards — is a promising sign.

 

"I want them to really know how good of a leader I was at North Carolina, and how every single one of those guys on my team would fight for me. They know how good of a teammate I was. I'd do anything for my team,” Howell said.

 

His age is another point of optimism. At 21, Howell is one of the youngest quarterbacks in the draft. Although age isn't the be-all or end-all, especially in football, it does give coaching staffs more flexibility in managing Howell's career path.

 

Howell won't hear his name as early as he may have thought, but his fall from early first-rounder to likely Day 2 selection may have its perks. He'll likely have lower expectations, which will allow him to develop away from the spotlight.

 

And maybe, in that environment, Howell can show the talent that made him such a valuable commodity early in his college career.

Sam Howell college statistics

Year	Pass Yds	Pass TD	INT	Comp%	Rush Yds	Rush TD
2019	3,641	38	7	61.4	35	1
2020	3,586	30	7	68.1	146	5
2021	3,056	24	9	62.5	828	11

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/sam-howell-nfl-draft-2022/d5bzace3f5rafuzzek5lwpk0

 

As it stands Howell is projected to be a 2nd round draft pick, but don’t be too surprised if a team snags him late round 1.

https://tarheelswire.usatoday.com/lists/best-and-worst-landing-spots-for-sam-howell-in-nfl/

Edited April 23, 2023 by zCommander

[dunfer]

Heath, Patrick, Jason, Robert and Dwayne are wondering why we're going with a 5th rounder

Edited April 23, 2023 by dunfer

[Jericho]

1 hour ago, tmandoug1 said:

Well that's not good......hopefully Howell proves them wrong. Otherwise same ol same ol.

 

 I mean being the fifth rated QB in a bad QB draft when maybe 1-2 guys actually pan out in a decent draft is not exactly a ringing endorsement. You can try and sell he's "better" than a fifth round pick, but that still doesn't look all that great by any reasonable measure. I think realistic fans know what he is. A stop gap and a lottery ticket. Maybe there's a .1 % chance he's the next Tom Brady or something. But more likely than not he's just a guy that muddles this team to around .500. You just don't have to pay him eight figures like Ryan Fitzpatrick or Carson Wentz or Alex Smith or whatever other warm body there is. I guess Jacoby Brissett is that guy anyway.

[dunfer]

I smell blue devils

[Koolblue13]

If Howell came out in 2021, he's have been a top 10 pick. Then he lost 4 playmakers and his Oline. 

 

 

[Gurgeh]

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

If Howell came out in 2021, he's have been a top 10 pick. Then he lost 4 playmakers and his Oline. 

 

 

 

You're right, but IIRC the knock on Howell was his footwork and that became a bigger deal when he struggled in his last year. Coaches always say they can improve footwork, so maybe spending most of a year on the sidelines has allowed Howell to get the work in.

[MartinC]

17 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

 

You're right, but IIRC the knock on Howell was his footwork and that became a bigger deal when he struggled in his last year. Coaches always say they can improve footwork, so maybe spending most of a year on the sidelines has allowed Howell to get the work in.

 

I think footwork is a knock on most College QBs. With the amount of read option, bubble screens and other designed quick throws that make up College offenses they spend very little time actually dropping back (and you drop even in shotgun) and throwing on time. When it comes to throwing mechanics I think Howell is decent - when I watch some College QBs throw I wonder what their QBs coaches actually do to justify a pay check.

 

The NFL is taking more and more of these College concepts though and blending it with West Coast type concepts so its an easier transition for someone from a College style offense into more NFL type timing concepts. Like the Eagles did for Hurts - started with what he knew and slowly expanded the playbook.

 

You can absolutely work on footwork (and having your eyes tied to that footwork) - and Howell had a lot of time last year to do just that. 

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

I think footwork is a knock on most College QBs. With the amount of read option, bubble screens and other designed quick throws that make up College offenses they spend very little time actually dropping back (and you drop even in shotgun) and throwing on time. When it comes to throwing mechanics I think Howell is decent - when I watch some College QBs throw I wonder what their QBs coaches actually do to justify a pay check.

 

The NFL is taking more and more of these College concepts though and blending it with West Coast type concepts so its an easier to transition for someone from a College style offense into more NFL type timing concepts. Like the Eagles did for Hurts - stared with what he knew and slowly expanded the playbook.

 

You can absolutely work on footwork (and having your eyes tied to that footwork) - and Howell had a lot of time last year to do just that. 

Mark Bullock did a break down on his improved footwork and it was night and day better than the preseason. I expect more improvement. 

 

Siriani was trying to force his offense on Hurts in 2021, then half way through the year, he handed playcalling to Steichen and that's when it changed for Hurts. He let him go back to his natural style and it worked. Hope we do the same with Howell.

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Mark Bullock did a break down on his improved footwork and it was night and day better than the preseason. I expect more improvement. 

 

Siriani was trying to force his offense on Hurts in 2021, then half way through the year, he handed playcalling to Steichen and that's when it changed for Hurts. He let him go back to his natural style and it worked. Hope we do the same with Howell.

That's why I'm glad we have Bieniemy. Turner would have been a disaster for Howell.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

That's why I'm glad we have Bieniemy. Turner would have been a disaster for Howell.

I'm still out on EB and although I liked Turner in a lot of ways, I do think it'll be an improvement.

 

I'm excited to see what our offense can do.

[HigSkin]

On 4/23/2023 at 8:59 AM, Koolblue13 said:

If Howell came out in 2021, he's have been a top 10 pick. Then he lost 4 playmakers and his Oline. 

 

 

 

Ryan Wilson CBS Sports NFL insider  on The Junkies said he'd  take Howell over Levis this year.  So there are more than a few saying Howell has a chance to be something.

[kingdaddy]

14 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

Ryan Wilson CBS Sports NFL insider  on The Junkies said he'd  take Howell over Levis this year.  So there are more than a few saying Howell has a chance to be something.

After seeing Howell play just one game what's not to like other than his height? He can run, has a gun, throws the deep ball well, seems pretty accurate and is tough. His vision is tremendous, he looked mostly poised and plays with great confidence. This kid can play and will be good for us provided he's coached right. Provided he can pick up the offense he's gonna give us a lot of optimism for the future.

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

 

I think footwork is a knock on most College QBs. With the amount of read option, bubble screens and other designed quick throws that make up College offenses they spend very little time actually dropping back (and you drop even in shotgun) and throwing on time. When it comes to throwing mechanics I think Howell is decent - when I watch some College QBs throw I wonder what their QBs coaches actually do to justify a pay check.

 

The NFL is taking more and more of these College concepts though and blending it with West Coast type concepts so its an easier transition for someone from a College style offense into more NFL type timing concepts. Like the Eagles did for Hurts - started with what he knew and slowly expanded the playbook.

 

You can absolutely work on footwork (and having your eyes tied to that footwork) - and Howell had a lot of time last year to do just that. 

 

Footwork is one of the most glaring signs that someone is REALLY searching for an issue with a quarterback.

 

If the quarterback is doing all that is asked of them, keeping turnovers to a minimum, studying film, putting points on the board and leads a team, do their foot mechanics *really* matter?

 

Patrick Mahomes doesn't have great mechanics. But who cares?

 

Yes, you always want to strive for improvement in all areas that need to be improved. So improving footwork can only add to efficiency as long as it's not in expense of the player's ability. But whenever I see "footwork is bad" as the main knock on a QB without much else I always kind of laugh to myself.

 

Now, poor footwork with poor production and a lack of film study is a different matter. Or poor footwork, high turnovers numbers and low accuracy. Footwork CAN be an issue. But when it's the main issue... that's when I laugh. 

[MartinC]

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

If the quarterback is doing all that is asked of them, keeping turnovers to a minimum, studying film, putting points on the board and leads a team, do their foot mechanics *really* matter?

 

 

Broadly agree with everything you say - but I do think footwork really matters. As you say its ultimately about production and there will always be outliers in terms of mechanics that do things that work for them which are outside the norm. There are also a (very) few guys whose physical talent transcends normal 'rules". At some point if its not broke don't fix it! But I bet they work with even a Mahomes on some of the fundamentals still so that when he doesn't need to be off platform or have a muddy pocket he's more consistent with his mechanics.

 

Even if you have great results there is always room for improvement. Which you do say above - so again I think we really broadly agree.

 

 

[KDawg]

41 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Broadly agree with everything you say - but I do think footwork really matters. As you say its ultimately about production and there will always be outliers in terms of mechanics that do things that work for them which are outside the norm. There are also a (very) few guys whose physical talent transcends normal 'rules". At some point if its not broke don't fix it! But I bet they work with even a Mahomes on some of the fundamentals still so that when he doesn't need to be off platform or have a muddy pocket he's more consistent with his mechanics.

 

Even if you have great results there is always room for improvement. Which you do say above - so again I think we really broadly agree.

 

 

As I mentioned, there is always a way to be better. But footwork being such a crutch for bad evaluations always gives me a nice laugh.

 

”Hey guys, this guy was productive in a three year D1 collegiate career. Had good comp percent, TD:TO ratio, good runner, lost his supporting cast and still did well, is a leader and well liked… but man… when he plants on his third drop step he takes a hitch step 1.25” too long and that delays his throwing motion by .02%. That is significant cause for concern. He’s basically undraftable.”

[The Consigliere]

On 4/22/2023 at 6:41 PM, tmandoug1 said:

Well that's not good......hopefully Howell proves them wrong. Otherwise same ol same ol.

 

I've always been suspicious that most of those guys simply don't do the leg work to compare all the seasons, but rather basically know how he was thought of going in, and then look at tape and #'s and talk to scouts and GM's to build their eval based upon their final year in college. Nothing in those takes makes me feel any different, it reads like a bunch of people that looked at his last, largely meh year, and don't see a legit starter, shock, surprise. Only one I think seriously references how much he lost. Imagine what Burrow's eval would've been with no Chase and no Jefferson? Howell lost his top two starting RB's, and his top 2 WR's to the NFL, I dont know what happened w/the line, but Im sure he lost some of it too. Unless these guys gave '20 and '19 tape serious review, I don't care about their takes, and I very much doubt they did. 

 

All that being said, regardless of story, QB's taken on Day 3 or undrafted have a miniscule hit rate, so if he does hit, it will be a huge aberration, but it is relevant to mention that his CV is very different from most day 3 QB's. 

[wit33]

He’s a magician in and out of the pocket, this should procure competency in the early stages of his career. 

[Skinsinparadise]

On 4/22/2023 at 10:39 PM, 88Comrade2000 said:

We are the only team that supposedly had Howell ranked high. He was the 5th or 6th qb drafted.  Wish him well but reality says it just be a one year thing.

 

 

 

Keim among others have said that's definitely not true.  Keim has said he has spoken to other personnel people from other teams who likewise liked Howell and thought this team got a steal.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Keim among others have said that's definitely not true.  Keim has said he has spoken to other personnel people from other teams who likewise liked Howell and thought this team got a steal.

 

Not at all directed at you. 

If he flops there will be personnel people who come out saying he is too small and his eyes focus too much on the pass rush. 
 

 

[KDawg]

On 4/22/2023 at 10:39 PM, 88Comrade2000 said:

We are the only team that supposedly had Howell ranked high. He was the 5th or 6th qb drafted.  Wish him well but reality says it just be a one year thing.

 

 

“Reality says…”

 

What reality do you live in? You have a penchant for stating your opinion as fact on this forum on a fairly routine basis. 
 

I’d like to hear you actually break down Sam Howell the player and explain why you think he won’t play well or be in the conversation for QB moving forward. 
 

Talk the player. Not the draft position.

 

it’s entirely possible you’re right. I don’t know any better than you do. But I’d like to see your breakdown on Howell himself that makes you feel that way.

[Warhead36]

At the very least, Howell gives us something to look forward to. There is nothing worse than going into a season with a mediocre veteran retread as your starter. You know you're gonna cap out at 7-8 ish wins. At least with Howell there is a chance he could be a home run. Even if its a fairly small chance.

[dunfer]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

At the very least, Howell gives us something to look forward to. There is nothing worse than going into a season with a mediocre veteran retread as your starter. You know you're gonna cap out at 7-8 ish wins. At least with Howell there is a chance he could be a home run. Even if its a fairly small chance.

Every drafted qb is a fairly small chance even the 1s...but you have to go for it

Edited April 24, 2023 by dunfer

[mistertim]

8 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

Broadly agree with everything you say - but I do think footwork really matters. As you say its ultimately about production and there will always be outliers in terms of mechanics that do things that work for them which are outside the norm. There are also a (very) few guys whose physical talent transcends normal 'rules". At some point if its not broke don't fix it! But I bet they work with even a Mahomes on some of the fundamentals still so that when he doesn't need to be off platform or have a muddy pocket he's more consistent with his mechanics.

 

Even if you have great results there is always room for improvement. Which you do say above - so again I think we really broadly agree.

 

 

One of the more interesting cases IMO was Aaron Rodgers. Coming out of Cal he had that "prototypical" throwing motion and mechanics: football held just so, right next to the earhole of the helmet every time. It was super "accurate" by textbook standards but it was a bit robotic.

 

Then when Rodgers went to GB was being taught by Mike McCarthy, McCarthy basically told him to "loosen up, Sandy baby" and had him hold the ball in a more natural way, and to relax his mechanics and footwork a bit. The result was him holding the ball a bit lower but it seemed to add extra smoothness and oomph to his throwing motion.

 

So Rodgers sort of went in the opposite direction, but it worked really well for him.

[Est.1974]

 

[tmandoug1]

I am so hoping Howell breaks the curse. Would love to get back to where we belong as a franchise.