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The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

Koolblue13

By Koolblue13
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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
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37 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Makes me feel better that we were at least interested.  The Fromm thing doesn't make sense to me, though, as vax protocols mean that Trubisky wouldn't have had to quarantine.

 

28 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I took it to mean they decided to keep Trubisky because their other backup qb (Fromm) wasn’t going to be available.

 

What @skinny21 said

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mistertim

mistertim

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Thinking about the above, I wonder how much Heinicke’s presence affects the pass blocking.  Are teams having their ends play mostly to keep TH in the pocket and therefore making it look like our tackles are ‘winning’?  

To be clear, I’m not asking because I’m looking for a positive regarding TH.  Yes, if we found he was helping the oline’s pass pro significantly it could be seen as a positive for TH, but the fact he doesn’t face that much pressure and still struggles to pass the ball around is pretty damning.

 

The QB definitely does have an effect on a team's OL in many ways. However when you look at things like PFF scores, all they're doing is charting individual and line overall win rates in an effort to remove as many external variables from the equation as possible. So you can theoretically still have a QB playing well even though his OL is graded as ****ty and losing many of their battles, and a QB playing poorly even though his OL is graded as very good and winning most of their battles.

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NewCliche21

NewCliche21

Posted
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1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

I took it to mean they decided to keep Trubisky because their other backup qb (Fromm) wasn’t going to be available.

 

Which makes sense, but it's literally a week versus a trade to overall improve your franchise via picks.  It seems short-sighted but I can understand not wanting to give the slightest competitive edge right now.  I just, from this end, don't think I would make the same decision given that Fromm doesn't have a multi-week+ injury.

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm not feeling this need for two QBs some of yall are throwing around. 

 

Either get a stop gap veteran because you don't like the guys in this draft or go draft your guy.

 

  If he's not ready to play day one, dont draft him, no more projects.

 

Both provide benefits for the other.  Rookie pushes vet to not be complacent and vice versa, vet teaches leadership to rookie, rookie teaches TikTok to vet, both are contingency plans for the other.  There's no lose doing this.

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Renegade7

Renegade7

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3 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Both provide benefits for the other.  Rookie pushes vet to not be complacent and vice versa, vet teaches leadership to rookie, rookie teaches TikTok to vet, both are contingency plans for the other.  There's no lose doing this.

 

Lolz.

 

I brought this up in one of the Heinicke threads that I believe the whole veteran teaching the rookie thing is overrated.

 

Mariota or Trubisky are not going to teach a rookie how to take their job, they are going to treat this as their last chance to prove they can be a full time starter. 

 

That doesn't mean they'll be jerks, jus sitting them down and telling them they'll eventually be a backup again no matter what they do won't go well after what they have been through. 

 

Again, pick a veteran or a rookie, dont do both.  For all the talk of Heinicke being a solid backup, im suprised of all the this talk that would essentially make him third stringer. His contract is up next year and I'm sure he won't like that either, hed be good as gone for chance to start elsewhere as well.

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mistertim

mistertim

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9 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Lolz.

 

I brought this up in one of the Heinicke threads that I believe the whole veteran teaching the rookie thing is overrated.

 

Mariota or Trubisky are not going to teach a rookie how to take their job, they are going to treat this as their last chance to prove they can be a full time starter. 

 

That doesn't mean they'll be jerks, jus sitting them down and telling them they'll eventually be a backup again no matter what they do won't go well after what they have been through. 

 

Again, pick a veteran or a rookie, dont do both.  For all the talk of Heinicke being a solid backup, im suprised of all the this talk that would essentially make him third stringer. His contract is up next year and I'm sure he won't like that either, hed be good as gone for chance to start elsewhere as well.

 

I think it depends on who you bring in.

 

Guys like Trubisky and Mariota are still relatively young in QB years (27 and 28) so they're probably still more in "I want to be a long term starter" mode than wanting to be a mentor mode.

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Renegade7

Renegade7

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6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think it depends on who you bring in.

 

Guys like Trubisky and Mariota are still relatively young in QB years (27 and 28) so they're probably still more in "I want to be a long term starter" mode than wanting to be a mentor mode.

 

Yea, we shouldn't willingly walk into a QB controversy.  The veteran will be looking over their shoulder when starting, and so will the rookie.  Either Heinicke is a solid backup or he's not, if he can't be second stringer why is he starting?

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KDawg

KDawg

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Here’s the issue with saying don’t get a vet…

 

FA is before the draft. So if you get to the draft and you are hoping Corral, Howell or for conversation sake Willis are available and we are picking around 5th…

 

You can try to trade up. But if there are QB needy teams in front there’s no guarantee you get any of those three or are able to trade up. 
 

Now you passed on QB in FA and now you won’t get one of the top guys in the draft. Now you have Heinicke under contract. And that’s it. 
 

Draft a later round rookie and hope? Want to talk about no more contingency plans or projects? You walked into one.

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skinny21

skinny21

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12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Lolz.

 

I brought this up in one of the Heinicke threads that I believe the whole veteran teaching the rookie thing is overrated.

 

Mariota or Trubisky are not going to teach a rookie how to take their job, they are going to treat this as their last chance to prove they can be a full time starter. 

 

That doesn't mean they'll be jerks, jus sitting them down and telling them they'll eventually be a backup again no matter what they do won't go well after what they have been through. 

 

Again, pick a veteran or a rookie, dont do both.  For all the talk of Heinicke being a solid backup, im suprised of all the this talk that would essentially make him third stringer. His contract is up next year and I'm sure he won't like that either, hed be good as gone for chance to start elsewhere as well.

You may be right about it being overrated, but it’s definitely a thing.  I look at it as less teaching though, and more an example of how to go about things in the pros.  A rookie can (potentially) see the work ethic needed, how to lead grown men, how to approach practice, the small (but important) details of setting protections, timing throws, etc.  They can hear the nuanced questions the vet asks the staff and other such dialogue.  There’s a million things to learn.  Guys like Mariota and Trubisky have been in the boat a rookie will be in and understand how the league works.  I can’t see them not offering up some advice/wisdom, even if it’s not to the level of sitting them down and teaching them everything they know.

 

As for Heinicke, people are talking about a vet that can be a potentially viable starter, at least for the short term.  I have a lot of respect for him, but Heinicke ain’t that guy*.  Sure Mariota and Trubisky want a chance to start, and would love to not have a 1st rounder breathing down their necks, but it’s hard to imagine any team being willing to go that route… so I can’t see them being salty about it.  It’s a step up from where they are this year (firmly in the backup role). And lastly, with FA coming first, it makes sense to sign the vet in case it doesn’t work out in the draft (let alone wanting competition).  

 

* I am actually still open to the idea that with better weapons, better defense, more experience, and an actual NFL kicker, Heinicke could maybe be that guy… but I sure wouldn’t bet on it (and I understand why some think I’m crazy for thinking that).  I’m inclined to see how he does this week and then let Allen take over.  I doubt he’s that guy either, but I also haven’t written him off.  And by “that guy”, I mean a viable starter until the rookie is ready, not a long term solution at the position.

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Renegade7

Renegade7

Posted
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7 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

You may be right about it being overrated, but it’s definitely a thing.  I look at it as less teaching though, and more an example of how to go about things in the pros.  A rookie can (potentially) see the work ethic needed, how to lead grown men, how to approach practice, the small (but important) details of setting protections, timing throws, etc.  They can hear the nuanced questions the vet asks the staff and other such dialogue.  There’s a million things to learn.  Guys like Mariota and Trubisky have been in the boat a rookie will be in and understand how the league works.  I can’t see them not offering up some advice/wisdom, even if it’s not to the level of sitting them down and teaching them everything they know.

 

Yea, but is that worth $10+ million in cap space?  I maintain thats the QB coach's job to mentor the rookie, not the guys who want his job. Does Heinicke not ask those questions? 

 

7 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

As for Heinicke, people are talking about a vet that can be a potentially viable starter, at least for the short term.  I have a lot of respect for him, but Heinicke ain’t that guy*.  Sure Mariota and Trubisky want a chance to start, and would love to not have a 1st rounder breathing down their necks, but it’s hard to imagine any team being willing to go that route… so I can’t see them being salty about it.  It’s a step up from where they are this year (firmly in the backup role). And lastly, with FA coming first, it makes sense to sign the vet in case it doesn’t work out in the draft (let alone wanting competition).  

 

I dont believe we're on the same page on what a stop gap veteran is.  Mariota and Trubisky are not going to be here multiple seasons knowing they have no chance to be the starter because we drafted a QB.  Maybe 1-2 years tops.  If the rookie is a bust, they will be long gone by the time we accept that.

 

7 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

* I am actually still open to the idea that with better weapons, better defense, more experience, and an actual NFL kicker, Heinicke could maybe be that guy… but I sure wouldn’t bet on it (and I understand why some think I’m crazy for thinking that).  I’m inclined to see how he does this week and then let Allen take over.  I doubt he’s that guy either, but I also haven’t written him off.  And by “that guy”, I mean a viable starter until the rookie is ready, not a long term solution at the position.

 

It depends in how the rest of this season pans out on whether he's a 2nd stringer or a 3rd stringer, but he's defiently not a longterm starter. 

 

I'm concerned on whats going on with Allen, I jus wish if we brought in a veteran QB to go with a rookie it was like a Colt McCoy who accepted he was a backup in this league and not threaten the rookie for his job. 

 

The ideal situation is to have both your backups familiar with the system, jus in case.

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Koolblue13

Koolblue13

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28 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Yea, we shouldn't willingly walk into a QB controversy. 

:ols: are you new here? :ols:

 

Heinicke is ****ing awful. AWFUL the last what? 4 or 5 weeks? He looks totally spent and has gotten worse every game since the playoffs. He has faithfuls.

 

There is an active debate about starting Heinicke or god damn Allen for craps sake. Remember the Cult?

 

We could literally sign the actual Jesus and people would jump all over him when he had an incompletion.

 

"Well, I mean he is the son of god. I expect more from him".  :ols:

 

29 year old Tom Brady could be the only QB on our roster and people would get mad and want to bench him.

 

I say **** it all. Bring in a bunch of QBs and let them all compete. It'll be glorious.

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HigSkin

HigSkin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Listening to Albert Breer and Cowherd just now, Cowherd and his "reliable FO source" LOL mentioned keep an eye on Russell Wilson to be move next season.  Albert Breer agreed. 

 

IF Wilson would agree to expand his list of teams to include WFT, would you give up 5-6 first rounds picks for him?

 

 

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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

Listening to Albert Breer and Cowherd just now, Cowherd and his "reliable FO source" LOL mentioned keep an eye on Russell Wilson to be move next season.  Albert Breer agreed. 

 

IF Wilson would agree to expand his list of teams to include WFT, would you give up 5-6 first rounds picks for him?

 

 


You can only trade 3 years worth of picks in advance. So unless we’re acquiring ones from

somewhere that’s not even possible.

 

Unless rules have changed. 

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HigSkin

HigSkin

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Posted
10 minutes ago, KDawg said:


You can only trade 3 years worth of picks in advance. So unless we’re acquiring ones from

somewhere that’s not even possible.

 

Unless rules have changed. 

 

Good to know but I'm literally not finding anything searching the topic.  LOL

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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

If we end up picking in the range of 7 -10, is it worth giving up draft assets to move up?  I'm a casual college football watcher so by no means an expert but the QB's coming out next year seem pedestrian.

 

 

 

 

It could be. But the question is: will we have enough ammo and will teams ahead of us be willing to do business?

11 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

Good to know but I'm literally not finding anything searching the topic.  LOL

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/04/eagles-can-trade-picks-into-2018-draft-once-the-2015-draft-opens/

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Renegade7

Renegade7

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Here’s the issue with saying don’t get a vet…

 

FA is before the draft. So if you get to the draft and you are hoping Corral, Howell or for conversation sake Willis are available and we are picking around 5th…

 

You can try to trade up. But if there are QB needy teams in front there’s no guarantee you get any of those three or are able to trade up. 
 

Now you passed on QB in FA and now you won’t get one of the top guys in the draft. Now you have Heinicke under contract. And that’s it. 
 

Draft a later round rookie and hope? Want to talk about no more contingency plans or projects? You walked into one.

 

This is why I recommend trading up to make sure or trading back so we have ammo next year.  I agree with not standing par at our spot and also not signing a veteran

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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

This is why I recommend trading up to make sure or trading back so we have ammo next year.  I agree with not standing par at our spot and also not signing a veteran

 Again, no guarantee teams in front of us want to do business

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