The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Llevron]

I dont think anyone actually wants dude to be HC. At this point I question him as an OC. You gotta be high as balls to want him as an HC. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Just looks like PFF is covering their asses for the early no.s. Should it not be going the other way since they made a couple OL changes?  like down from 32 to their magic no. of 26? Instead of raising up from 16 to 26? 

 

They have been ranked in the 20s range for a long time from PFF.  The PFF argument that some used was Wylie isn't that bad, because his PFF scores were OK and on some PFF metrics they tested well.  but as for an aggregate score, they've had an bad aggregate score from PFF for most of the season, I recall because I continually posted it.

 

I don't think Chris Paul has been a boost to the line per your point, he's struggled, so them sliding even more makes sense.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Hard to tell as to @Going Commando I recall him saying recently there is a case to bringing him back but wasn't sure if he meant as an OC or HC?

 

 

I'd consider bringing him back as OC to maintain continuity/chemistry with Howell, but you can't give him the HC job.  Not with as bad as the offense has been this season.  I don't think the reason the players might not want him to HC is mainly about his personality/style, I think it's because he hasn't done a good job this year.  But I do think he could make big strides with Howell next season if they can retain some of the parts of the offense that worked, improve the defense/morale, add a significant weapon, improve the middle of the OL, etc.

[skinsfan66]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They have been ranked in the 20s for a long time from PFF.  The PFF argument that some used was Wylie isn't that bad, because his PFF scores were OK and on some PFF metrics they tested well.  but as for an aggregate score, they've had an bad aggregate score from PFF for most of the season, I recall because I continually posted it.

Without PFF I see it as going down instead of up but not much. 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'd consider bringing him back as OC to maintain continuity/chemistry with Howell, but you can't give him the HC job.  Not with as bad as the offense has been this season.  I don't think the reason the players might not want him to HC is mainly about his personality/style, I think it's because he hasn't done a good job this year.  But I do think he could make big strides with Howell next season if they can retain some of the parts of the offense that worked, improve the defense/morale, add a significant weapon, improve the middle of the OL, etc.

I'd rather see Howell spend the next few years with a young brilliant up and coming OC/HC/QBC growing, instead of EBs loud old ass trying to regurgitate whatever part of Andy Reids he remembers.

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Without PFF I see it as going down instead of up but not much. 

 

They were for example ranked 20th in week 6.  My point isn't to back PFF -- but to hit back those that said heck PFF agrees with them that this O line is fine.  Heck PFF really wasn't high on the O line.  If they want to argue PFF isn't down on Wylie that much is true for whatever reason.  But as a whole they have this O line ranked 24th out of 32 teams for the season -- so if that's the best some have to back their point that this O line isn't bad, OK but that's saying very little because PFf ranks this unit as a whole as a bad unit.

 

But yeah as to improvement.  They have Paul was a brutal 32 score in pass protect.  They werent high on Charles but they don't see Paul as being better and for my eye test they might be right.  Others have talked about Paul's struggles.

 

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'd rather see Howell spend the next few years with a young brilliant up and coming OC/HC/QBC growing, instead of EBs loud old ass trying to regurgitate whatever part of Andy Reids he remembers.

 

I am definitely closer to this point of view.  I want him gone.  Not as OC and certainly not as HC.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Paul looks awful.

 

At the Giants game, we had seats right near the tunnel and when he came jogging out - I was like damn, my man looks out of breath already.  Just looked really sloppy and out of shape.

[Going Commando]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They have been ranked in the 20s range for a long time from PFF.  The PFF argument that some used was Wylie isn't that bad, because his PFF scores were OK and on some PFF metrics they tested well.  but as for an aggregate score, they've had an bad aggregate score from PFF for most of the season, I recall because I continually posted it.

 

I don't think Chris Paul has been a boost to the line per your point, he's struggled, so them sliding even more makes sense.

 

It's not just Wylie's PFF scores that aren't bad.  His PBWR have been solid too, and it's also rare for bad players to have 8 AV seasons.  He's just not a bad player and there is a consistent misconception about him that makes him an easy punching bag for some reason.  Leno too.  They're both solid starters and they aren't the problem with the pass protection.  People think Tyler Larsen is good when he's garbage just like Gates was, and Saadiq's one great game this year was the only time LG hasn't been a major point of failure for the line.  So was Bieniemy's playcalling for most of the season.  And people don't want to hear criticism of Sam, but his decision speed was killing the line too, though he's gotten a lot better more creative the past few games.

[skinsfan66]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Paul looks awful.

 

At the Giants game, we had seats right near the tunnel and when he came jogging out - I was like damn, my man looks out of breath already.  Just looked really sloppy and out of shape.

Agree Paul sucks but Charles has never shown anything other than being on roller skates, he got hurt. Gates remove, may have been the diffference so far. Point was they sucked early and on pace for the sack record among things. Numbers just did not look right to me. They still suck as a whole. Paul was pointed out not by me.

Edited November 29, 2023 by skinsfan66

[Going Commando]

11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'd rather see Howell spend the next few years with a young brilliant up and coming OC/HC/QBC growing, instead of EBs loud old ass trying to regurgitate whatever part of Andy Reids he remembers.

 

It's just hard to make the switch each year.  Hard on anyone, and getting to where a playcaller and QB can finish each other's sentences they know each other so well takes a long time, but becomes a huge competitive advantage once achieved.  Say what you want about the job EB did over the first half of the year, but he and Howell are learning each other.  They're figuring out what the offense does well and EB is learning what Howell likes.

 

EB's handling/teaching of Howell hasn't been ideal but I don't think he's been bad for him.  The parts I don't like about him are the in-game adjustments/planning, the philosophy that leads him to abandon the run, the way he handles the receivers and backs, etc.  But I can set that stuff on the backburner if the QB is developing because that's how important that part of the job is.

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

It's not just Wylie's PFF scores that aren't bad.  His PBWR have been solid too, and it's also rare for bad players to have 8 AV seasons.  He's just not a bad player and there is a consistent misconception about him that makes him an easy punching bag for some reason.  Leno too.  They're both solid starters and they aren't the problem with the pass protection.  People think Tyler Larsen is good when he's garbage just like Gates was, and Saadiq's one great game this year was the only time LG hasn't been a major point of failure for the line.  So was Bieniemy's playcalling for most of the season.  And people don't want to hear criticism of Sam, but his decision speed was killing the line too, though he's gotten a lot better more creative the past few games.

 

I knew the Wylie part would get a response from you. 😎. Wylie especially early in the season would give up pressures-sacks in big moments in games.  And no i didn't think that was all on Howell. Wylie even on PFF metrics has had 5 bad games in pass protect.   He's played better of late sans the Dallas game.  I don't see him as the answer at RT.

 

You like to group Leno with Wylie as if fans here criticize them as a package deal.  But I don't find people do that.  Leno is considered by most here as fine.

 

As far as Larsen, he's struggled some in pass protect but apparently he's a smarter player than Gates as to calling protections.

 

PFF rates S. Charles in the high 50s, just a guy.   Chris Paul is the 40s and even lower as a pass protector.

 

My point is though that on the aggregate even PFF doesn't think much of this O line.  They rank it right now as the 24th best in league.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

It's just hard to make the switch each year.  Hard on anyone, and getting to where a playcaller and QB can finish each other's sentences they know each other so well takes a long time, but becomes a huge competitive advantage once achieved.  Say what you want about the job EB did over the first half of the year, but he and Howell are learning each other.  They're figuring out what the offense does well and EB is learning what Howell likes.

 

EB's handling/teaching of Howell hasn't been ideal but I don't think he's been bad for him.  The parts I don't like about him are the in-game adjustments/planning, the philosophy that leads him to abandon the run, the way he handles the receivers and backs, etc.  But I can set that stuff on the backburner if the QB is developing because that's how important that part of the job is.

I only want to change it this year and then keep it the same for years. New GM is going to hire new coaches. EB is as good as gone.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Agree Paul sucks but Charles has never shown anything other than being on roller skates, he got hurt. Gates remove, may have been the diffference so far. Point was they sucked early and on pace for the sack record among things. Numbers just did not look right to me. They still suck as a whole. Paul was pointed out not by me.

Fair enough on Paul/Charles, neither look very good.  I gather Larsen is better at identifying but he’s easily pushed back. 
 

Only guys I care to see back are Cosmi and Leno (preferably at RT) after we get us a mainstay at LT.

[Warhead36]

QBs young and old have skyrocketed with new coaches and it happens all the time. I wouldn't sweat Howell having to learn a new system if the guy teaching it is competent.

[Llevron]

We have had this argument multiple times this month 

[method man]

49 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Paul looks awful.

 

At the Giants game, we had seats right near the tunnel and when he came jogging out - I was like damn, my man looks out of breath already.  Just looked really sloppy and out of shape.

 

Paul is such an underachiever. He has the requisite physical tools needed to be a fulltime starter and, in terms of raw intelligence, he is up there with James Smith Williams on the team. Going through this with him makes me also want to avoid his brother in the draft. He is a dude who gets cut and may make it on a PS next year

[Voice_of_Reason]

29 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

QBs young and old have skyrocketed with new coaches and it happens all the time. I wouldn't sweat Howell having to learn a new system if the guy teaching it is competent.

I’d prefer if they kept the basis of the system the same,  however.  
 

If it’s not somebody off of the Reid tree, which is unlikely, then a WCO guy where some terminology might be different but the concepts remain similar would be ideal.  
 

If that’s not what happens, that’s fine, but it will be week 8-10 before the offense will truly have comfort in what they are doing.  

Edited November 29, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason

[method man]

38 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I knew the Wylie part would get a response from you. 😎. Wylie especially early in the season would give up pressures-sacks in big moments in games.  And no i didn't think that was all on Howell. Wylie even on PFF metrics has had 5 bad games in pass protect.   He's played better of late sans the Dallas game.  I don't see him as the answer at RT.

 

You like to group Leno with Wylie as if fans here criticize them as a package deal.  But I don't find people do that.  Leno is considered by most here as fine.

 

As far as Larsen, he's struggled some in pass protect but apparently he's a smarter player than Gates as to calling protections.

 

PFF rates S. Charles in the high 50s, just a guy.   Chris Paul is the 40s and even lower as a pass protector.

 

My point is though that on the aggregate even PFF doesn't think much of this O line.  They rank it right now as the 24th best in league.

 

 

 

I actually think you keep Wylie around next season as either the LG starter or as depth. You save less than $2M in cap cutting him after this season - you can just wait until the 2025 offseason to cut him and save $8M in cap room. To level set expectations, he is definitely not a great guard but he is a solid proven starter there and would be an upgrade over Charles and Paul. If they do go Fashanu in rd 1, Fashanu/Wylie/great vet FA center/Cosmi/Leno would be a solid starting line.

 

In this scenario, I would still draft another interior OL Day 2 to challenge for that starting LG spot but there is a learning curve for interior OLs and they don't really hit their stride until year 2. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by method man

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, method man said:

 

I actually think you keep Wylie around next season as either the LG starter or as depth. You save less than $2M in cap cutting him after this season - you can just wait until the 2025 offseason to cut him and save $8M in cap room. To level set expectations, he is definitely not a great guard but he is a solid proven starter there and would be an upgrade over Charles and Paul. If they do go Fashanu in rd 1, Fashanu/Wylie/great vet FA center/Cosmi/Leno would be a solid starting line

 

I talked about Wylie as a guard after studying him during the summer.  So I agree.  As I said then he might be an average to even above average guard but don't see at at RT. 

[method man]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I talked about Wylie as a guard after studying him during the summer.  So I agree.  As I said then he might be an average to even above average guard but don't see at at RT. 

 

We know that Darnell Wright was a target for them. If they had gotten him, it would have definitely meant Wylie at guard. Too bad we won't get to see it this season. An obvious change that should have been made a long time ago was having Wylie go to guard and starting Lucas at RT, depth be damned

[goskins10]

4 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'd consider bringing him back as OC to maintain continuity/chemistry with Howell, but you can't give him the HC job.  Not with as bad as the offense has been this season.  I don't think the reason the players might not want him to HC is mainly about his personality/style, I think it's because he hasn't done a good job this year.  But I do think he could make big strides with Howell next season if they can retain some of the parts of the offense that worked, improve the defense/morale, add a significant weapon, improve the middle of the OL, etc.

 

If the offense was playing lights out and putting up 30 on a regular basis then Ok maybe. And in fairness the offenses woes are not all on EB. A better OC likkely could have gotten more out what is there. But more important to me is that if you are moving on the from Ron (which they are) and EB is not your next HC (which he should never be), then clean house. No left overs. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by goskins10

[Ball Security]

2 hours ago, method man said:

 

I actually think you keep Wylie around next season as either the LG starter or as depth. You save less than $2M in cap cutting him after this season - you can just wait until the 2025 offseason to cut him and save $8M in cap room. To level set expectations, he is definitely not a great guard but he is a solid proven starter there and would be an upgrade over Charles and Paul. If they do go Fashanu in rd 1, Fashanu/Wylie/great vet FA center/Cosmi/Leno would be a solid starting line.

 

In this scenario, I would still draft another interior OL Day 2 to challenge for that starting LG spot but there is a learning curve for interior OLs and they don't really hit their stride until year 2. 

Save $4.5M with a post 6/1 cut.

When they get Ben Johnson as HC, get Jonah Jackson as the LG. Take another T (Guyton, maybe) in the second.  Take an IOL in the third or fourth.
 

Fashanu, Jackson, Stromberg, Cosmi, Leno/Guyton

 

Guyton/Leno, draft pick (Jackson-Powers), Paul, Daniels. Maybe a 10th guy.

 

I believe post 6/1 cuts to Wylie and Gates is a net of -3M.  9M in dead cap, 6M in savings.
 

Hell, you could still go after a center in FA if you are not convinced about Stromberg.

 

 

 

[Ball Security]

4 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'd consider bringing him back as OC to maintain continuity/chemistry with Howell, but you can't give him the HC job.  Not with as bad as the offense has been this season.  I don't think the reason the players might not want him to HC is mainly about his personality/style, I think it's because he hasn't done a good job this year.  But I do think he could make big strides with Howell next season if they can retain some of the parts of the offense that worked, improve the defense/morale, add a significant weapon, improve the middle of the OL, etc.

EB has been given a lot of power this season as in he is already taken on HC duties such as scheduling the practices. 
 

If you pass on him as HC, is he going to be willing to give up the responsibilities that he currently has? You eliminate a large portion of potential HCs. It doesn’t make sense to bring in another offensive minded HC.

 

I think you are correct about results versus style with regards to the players’ perceptions.

 

I can’t see him back unless he is the HC. And, to me, that would be pretty disappointing.

[madden lot]

I said it in the misery game thread Thursday and I'll say it again, EB is ego driven stubborn ass maniac. Why run a play to end the half when we, him and everyone on the sidelines know we not trying to score. He has done this multiple times this season. Why why why??

[method man]

5 hours ago, Ball Security said:

Save $4.5M with a post 6/1 cut.

When they get Ben Johnson as HC, get Jonah Jackson as the LG. Take another T (Guyton, maybe) in the second.  Take an IOL in the third or fourth.
 

Fashanu, Jackson, Stromberg, Cosmi, Leno/Guyton

 

Guyton/Leno, draft pick (Jackson-Powers), Paul, Daniels. Maybe a 10th guy.

 

I believe post 6/1 cuts to Wylie and Gates is a net of -3M.  9M in dead cap, 6M in savings.
 

Hell, you could still go after a center in FA if you are not convinced about Stromberg.

 

 

 

 

At least per PFF, Jonah Jackson is not having a good season - he has a 62 PFF grade. He had a 66 PFF grade the year before and he has always been sub 60 in terms of pass blocking. Going from Wylie at guard to Jackson would be a lateral move and not worth the net incremental cap investment. Penciling Stromberg in as center is much more of an unknown than penciling in Wylie at LG