The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Warhead36]

Mediocre players with trash playcalling and garbage scheme. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Ceiling = Hasselback

Floor = Minshew

 

[CjSuAvE22]

I think Howell is good enough to build around, and someone that can actually win in the playoffs. Lets take a tackle in the first round next year and lets run it again with an offensive minded coach after we bring in someone from a winning organization to be our GM. 

[RWJ]

This was posted before but I don't think it changes several of you on here follow this guy, I don't but know if him and read his post from time to time.  But this!  "Young QB with upside" in his tweet.  Everyone knows it too.  We have our QB to build around.  

 

 

 

 

 

[abdcskins]

I have my doubts. I'll just put it like that.  Clearly talented, not sure he sees the field or makes the right decisions. 

 

Also clearly not getting enough help. I think he is worth another year. 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, abdcskins said:

I have my doubts. I'll just put it like that.  Clearly talented, not sure he sees the field or makes the right decisions. 

 

I don't think any QB can make the right decision or see the field if a defender is always in their face as soon as the ball is snapped. Maybe we just wait and we see how Sam does next year with a functional OL and play calling and a better TE (Thomas and Bates are not going to cut it anymore). 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

More often than not, I think Sam is seeing the field.  He’s just seeing immediate pressure or his reads aren’t even coming out of their breaks yet and/or covered, by the time he needs to let it go.

 

Most every offensive snap is chaotic, unlike any I can recall here.  Every yard we get looks so difficult to obtain.  The best plays are made outside of the play that was called.

 

It’s a bad offense that’s only gotten worse.

Edited December 4, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

The O Line or lack of one is playing a part in his struggles no doubt about it, but to fully absolve him of responsibility is incredibly naive.

 

Not sure I've seen enough to build a franchise around and would be pleased if we got aggressive in the draft for a Williams or Maye, BUT wouldn't be disappointed if Sam is QB1 next season and gets another shot.

[KDawg]

 

I wonder how seriously some of you are taking the OL. They are historically bad. This might be the worst OL this franchise has ever fielded. Including the Spurrier years. 
 

The ask on Howell is huge.

 

If you want to replace him, fine. I don’t but if that’s how you feel it’s how you feel. But these beat downs are not solely on him. Changing the quarterback doesn’t change a thing except the name on the jersey peeling himself off the ground play after play. 

[Going Commando]

8 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Next year is a rebuilding year… If Sam shows that he is your guy, great! If he’s not, then you’re picking high.

 

It's always better for a new coach and GM to get their QB year one, you're rebuild doesn't start until you get your QB.  And it's also better to get your QB in a year where you are picking high in a good QB class.  Next year's QB class is a mystery, but going in, there aren't any prospects who are nearly as strong as Caleb Williams and Drake Maye were coming in to this one.  Quinn Ewers and Shedeur Sanders are not the prospects that they are.

 

The problem for us is that Arizona won and the Patriots keep losing.  Arizona wasn't going to pick a QB and eat 80 million dollars in cap space next year.  #2 would have been up for sale if they got it.  But the Patriots have no obstacles to picking one.  So now we have to figure out how much we like Jayden Daniels or JJ McCarthy, and that is a tougher call.  I would have absolutely traded up for Drake Maye, but I'm not sure I would trade up for either Daniels or McCarthy.

 

That said, I think there is a chance Daniels could be there at four if we pick there.  Top three picks would presumably be Williams to Chicago, Maye to New England, Harrison Jr to Arizona, and Daniels to us at four.  We wouldn't necessarily have to move up to three to get him.

 

And I also think there is a chance that New England could prefer Daniels to Maye at two, and leave Maye on the board for us to either get or trade up to #3 for.  Brian Kelly and Bill Belichick are close and no doubt Kelly will sell Daniels hard to Belichick.  A shocking amount of big decisions in this business come down to who you know and trust on a personal level.

 

Going into the year, Daniels in the top five, or getting picked #2 over Drake Maye would have seemed far fetched.  But he had a Joe Burrow esque senior season.  He might be the best shot at a blue chip QB prospect that our next regime gets.  And punting on taking a QB in their first off-season is what doomed Rivera, I have no interest in seeing the next regime repeat that mistake.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

some more.  their RBs are good but they don't run

 

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

I’d personally stick with Howell in 2024, but if we wind up picking top 4 and a new regime want their own QB, then fine. I’d hesitate to trade away draft capital to facilitate that move, but if they want one of top 3 QBs in this draft, it is what it is. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

It's always better for a new coach and GM to get their QB year one, you're rebuild doesn't start until you get your QB.  And it's also better to get your QB in a year where you are picking high in a good QB class.  Next year's QB class is a mystery, but going in, there aren't any prospects who are nearly as strong as Caleb Williams and Drake Maye were coming in to this one.  Quinn Ewers and Shedeur Sanders are not the prospects that they are.

 

The problem for us is that Arizona won and the Patriots keep losing.  Arizona wasn't going to pick a QB and eat 80 million dollars in cap space next year.  #2 would have been up for sale if they got it.  But the Patriots have no obstacles to picking one.  So now we have to figure out how much we like Jayden Daniels or JJ McCarthy, and that is a tougher call.  I would have absolutely traded up for Drake Maye, but I'm not sure I would trade up for either Daniels or McCarthy.

 

That said, I think there is a chance Daniels could be there at four if we pick there.  Top three picks would presumably be Williams to Chicago, Maye to New England, Harrison Jr to Arizona, and Daniels to us at four.  We wouldn't necessarily have to move up to three to get him.

 

And I also think there is a chance that New England could prefer Daniels to Maye at two, and leave Maye on the board for us to either get or trade up to #3 for.  Brian Kelly and Bill Belichick are close and no doubt Kelly will sell Daniels hard to Belichick.  A shocking amount of big decisions in this business come down to who you know and trust on a personal level.

 

Going into the year, Daniels in the top five, or getting picked #2 over Drake Maye would have seemed far fetched.  But he had a Joe Burrow esque senior season.  He might be the best shot at a blue chip QB prospect that our next regime gets.  And punting on taking a QB in their first off-season is what doomed Rivera, I have no interest in seeing the next regime repeat that mistake.

 

 

 

Most around Arizona still think they pick a QB if its Drake or Caleb.  But I'd doubt they do it for Daniels.  Daniels you can argue has similarities to Murray -- he's taller but he has that thin frame where you worry about his durability.   

 

Also, its seems very unlikely Belichick will be one making that call so his relationship with Kelly likely doesn't matter.  Maye looks like the protoype QB and as you know he can run too but not on Daniels level.  I'd be surprised to see him drop.  

 

Considering Lamar Jackson's success next door. Considering the last time this team won 10 games and had excited fans was for RG3.   I'd be surprised if they just shrug off the ability to take Daniels.  At a minimum I'd think he would be on the table for this team. 

 

I am a Howell guy, I've been from the jump.  But my mind is still open to another.  It's not for me about give a new regime a new QB.  It's that this franchise has been awful at picking QBs and often have bad luck at that spot -- the bad years don't come in QB rich drafts or if they do the GM ignores, injuries among other things.  If they bypass a QB that you think is transformative because you want to see more from Howell while not being sure about Howell would add to the pile.

 

In short, if I am the GM I would have to be convinced Howell is the guy.  And my amateur take on Howell is I can see the dude will likely be a good QB in this league.  But I can also see him plateau in that sort of 2nd tier class and if I felt I had a Qb in my sights with first tier potential, I'd pull the trigger.

 

So in short i am open to running with Howell and open to not doing it.  My mind is completely open.  I agree with you that next years class doesn't right now look to be as appealing.  Also we don't know if we will be picking that high in 2025.  Run it back wity Howell or take it with another, I am good with whatever the GM thinks, I'd get it either way,

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

I’d personally stick with Howell in 2024, but if we wind up picking top 4 and a new regime want their own QB, then fine. I’d hesitate to trade away draft capital to facilitate that move, but if they want one of top 3 QBs in this draft, it is what it is. 

 

I wouldn't trade up either.  I doubt anyone would be trading away Maye or Caleb.  i suspect the conversation is likely purely about Daniels.  I can still see Daniels go #3 but there is a shot he's at our pick. 

 

I think it might intrigue the next GM.   To my eyes Daniels is RG3 without the baggage.  His weakness is the same -- thin frame and takes too many chances running. 

 

Sick season, 50 TDs, 72% completion percentage...

 

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

The O Line or lack of one is playing a part in his struggles no doubt about it, but to fully absolve him of responsibility is incredibly naive.

 

It’s not about fully absolving him.  Obviously he’s made bad plays himself.  But he’s been injected into a bad offense, with a bad playcaller, and a bad offensive line.  Very less than ideal circumstances to prove one’s self.

 

It’s not that I’m convinced he can be our guy long term, it’s that everything around him is so poor that it makes it hard to judge him individually.

Edited December 4, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

Thomas is really starting to grow on me. I havent done any WR tape at all. But I cant wait to dig into his film. 

 

He looks to have the size-speed we can use

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

I wonder how seriously some of you are taking the OL. They are historically bad. This might be the worst OL this franchise has ever fielded. Including the Spurrier years. 
 

The ask on Howell is huge.

 

If you want to replace him, fine. I don’t but if that’s how you feel it’s how you feel. But these beat downs are not solely on him. Changing the quarterback doesn’t change a thing except the name on the jersey peeling himself off the ground play after play. 

 

I take it very seriously as you know.    Ideally take a tackle in the first.  But its a deep draft, I won't jump off a bridge if they took two with their early 2nd rounders and actually used FA wisely.  Some (not you) act like there was nothing good in FA last year, that's not true, we just shopped in the junk pile, while teams like the Steelers ended up with really good guards for example. 

 

And i like Howell.  If I have a concern about him, its just one.  Is he potentially great?  Is he a top 5 potential?  I don't know.   I've seen enough to think he's good.  In that Carr (when he was good), Kirk range. 

 

If and only if they LOVE a QB in this draft.  And to my eyes, there is just one at their pick potentially with sick ability and that's Daniels -- do we regret later that we got Derek Carr while lets say the NY Giants have the next Lamar Jackson in Daniels?   That would end up worse than hey we take Chase you get your Andrew Thomas move from years ago.

 

And I am not saying it happens like that and I am convinced that's the comparison.  But I'll also say i don't know.  It's not crazy that it goes down that way.  And i want the next GM to consider everything including this.  I don't know if the Giants pick after us.  But I've seen enough of Daniels to know I wouldn't be celebrating if they get him in this draft.  And no I wouldn't take Daniels just to ensure the Giants don't get him. 

 

But the fact that Daniels can end up in our division adds a little oomph to their decision.  If they tihnk Daniels is special and Howell isn't, take Daniels.  And this isn't me pounding the table for Daniels.  I genuinely don't have a hardcore opinion on him yet.  But I've seen enough to have two conclusions.  A.  I don't want to see NY get him.  B.  He has a high ceiling. 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, RWJ said:

Nuff said to me about Sam and the players have supported him all year long.  It's not Sam and I'm not stating this to you, SIP but just about others that say we need a new QB.  Yes, the new GM will have the ability to get a new one but to me it will speak volumes about the new GM if he does.  To me, he sees the ability that Howell has but the disability of coaching and play calling that is holding Howell back.  JMO, all.   

 

Speak volumes, in a bad way?

 

If so not for me.  I don't want the GM to be emotional about this or that.  Be clinical, be an assassain.  Judge Sam versus the prospects.  does one have a distinctly higher ceiling?  If not run it back with Howell.  If you think a Qb in this draft is special and better than Howell, take that QB. 

 

I've been in the Howell camp from the jump.  And I still like him.  And yes I am projecting him already with what if he had a better supporting cast?  If I am judging him purely on how he played, while I like most of it, I'd have no problem passing on him because of inconsistency.  But he's young and you can see the potential, if he had an O line, better receivers, better play calling THEN.....and i expect the consistency to come with more experience and a better supporting cast.

 

So my mind is locked in that I think he's a good QB in the league.  I just don't know if this dude is going to be great.  My mind is mixed on that.

 

Keim who like me is a fan of Howell just said (as I think) you can't ignore QB in this draft, you got to consider it.  i agree.  I am not saying pull the trigger but I think it would be lazy from the new GM to not go through the trouble of digesting these QBs and considering the ceiling of them versus Howell.

 

My gut is they don't go QB.  And i am cool with that.  But I want them to consider everything.  We deserve a great team as Josh Harris said he's striving for.   Not saying Howell isn't the guy to make this team great but IMO it feels that great is a wildcard with Howell.  Granted its wildcard with any unproven QB but if the GM feels one of these guys ceiling is a clear peg higher, then take that dude.  If he doesn't, then don't.

 

This isn't in theory an ordinary draft.  It's seems unusually stacked at QB.  We are picking high.  One of our division rivals are picking high, too.  Like I said this GM would be condemned a lot more if they allow NY to get the higher ceiling QB who plagues this team for years.  That would be more damning to me than hey he didn't patiently build around Howell.  Again if this is how they see it.  I am not saying I see it this way.  I don't know.  But it also doesn't feel crazy to me. 

 

Aside from winning or losing, they got a zillion fans in the DMV wearing Lamar Jackson jerseys and some argue that was a contributing factor for the Ravens gaining fans at this team's expense.  I would think it would at least garner some consideration for this FO if they think they are passing over the next Lamar type (again if they feel that way about him) and watch him play against this team for the next 12 years or so.

 

In short, I think its a complicated decision versus a no brainer.  And i am glad we won't have Dan, Bruce, Vinny or Ron making this call.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

@Skinsinparadise, your posts this morning are on the money, saying many of the things I think myself but am useless at actually vocalising in posts.

 

I like Sam, but I want the new GM to explore all options that could take this franchise forward, that includes reaching out to the Bears to check on what they want for 1 overall. If they fall in love with a Daniels then pull the trigger and draft him, no time for emotion, just pure focus on what they feel will improve this franchise.

 

If it shakes out that the compensation to go up is too much, and the GM doesn't believe what's left has the potential to be any better than Howell in the long run then we can look at other positions / maybe even a trade back depending on circumstances. Either route feels quite exciting when paired with the new hires and vast cap space.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

@Skinsinparadise, your posts this morning are on the money, saying many of the things I think myself but am useless at actually vocalising in posts.

 

I like Sam, but I want the new GM to explore all options that could take this franchise forward, that includes reaching out to the Bears to check on what they want for 1 overall. If they fall in love with a Daniels then pull the trigger and draft him, no time for emotion, just pure focus on what they feel will improve this franchise.

 

If it shakes out that the compensation to go up is too much, and the GM doesn't believe what's left has the potential to be any better than Howell in the long run then we can look at other positions / maybe even a trade back depending on circumstances. Either route feels quite exciting when paired with the new hires and vast cap space.

 

 

Usually teams don't trade away chances to get QB prospects as ballyhooed as Drake and Caleb.    Among other examples, I recall Cincy had no price they were willing to listen to for Burrow, Jax for Lawrence, Indy for Luck, etc.

 

So i am not thinking at all at trading up.   that's a dance that typically doesn't happen.  We were lucky (or unlucky depending on the perspective) that the Rams were high on their first round pick QB from recent years in Bradford and hence were willing to trade their pick.  But usually that doesn't happen.  From what i heard, Bears are moving on from Fields.  NE have no one at QB and won't pass on the rare opportunity.  The Cards i think would go QB too but maybe they'd trade -- that's the one shot, I'd gather. 

 

My thoughts are squarely on picking 4th lets say and Daniels is there.   It would be such an interesting decision because there are some politics to it, too.

 

A.  Good chance if you pass on him, you will face him in your own division.

 

B.  The parallels to RG3 are a bit uncanny (without the baggage) and the idea that that's was the last time the fans were really engaged

 

C.  the damage that the Ravens and Lamar Jackson did to this franchise as to fans bolting to the Ravens.

 

I forgot what business-marketing guy talked about Lamar but it was interesting. They referenced studies had that Lamar sold more jerseys around the DMV including the city by a mile over any Washington player.  Lamar was a big hit with kids, etc.  And the marketing guy explained he's a key part in getting the next generation including around DC to become Ravens fans.  Lamar has been a PR boon for Baltimore and a disaster for this team. 

 

And look the politics of it is just gravy.  it's not the point in play at all.  But if this regime thinks this dude both is the better player AND would help corral fans-bring some 2012 level excitement, I think it would be tough to ignore.

 

And it might come off like I am advocating taking Daniels.  I am not.  i am just playing some devils advocate on two points.

 

A.  You got to consider it.

 

B.  There are likely some consequences for passing on him and being wrong about it that are uncommon compared to the typical season.

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

 

 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

The recent success of Jordan Love makes me hopeful that you can't give up on Howell just yet.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

2 hours ago, Going Commando said:

It's always better for a new coach and GM to get their QB year one

A quick look around the league tells me that that is not always the case.

[DJHJR86]

11 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

The recent success of Jordan Love makes me hopeful that you can't give up on Howell just yet.

 

Jordan Love was a 1st round pick.  They generally get more rope.  This year is the audition for Howell to prove he is worth building around.  There's still 4 games left but it ain't looking good.  The new GM should not be tied down to developing Howell.

[Skinsinparadise]

Another factor is you have the Qb if you’re taken in the first for the next 5 years on the cheap. You got Howell for 2 more years on the cheap.

 

my point isn’t give up on Howell. I actually like Howell and not even a whit of my thoughts center on giving up on him. I think he likely has the goods. 
 

My question is his ceiling versus someone else in a draft uniquely in theory stacked at QB and with unique circumstances that give more weight and consequences if you get it wrong.

 

I don’t know what I would do but I do know I would consider it because to me one decision over another isn’t a no brainer easy call 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise