The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

There's still 4 games left but it ain't looking good.  

I said this weeks ago, but it’s even more true today.  This team is horrendously hopeless and only going to get worse by the week and that’s playing out before our eyes.  I don’t think there is much we can learn about Howell that we don’t already know.  
 

[Warhead36]

Howell doesn't have a superstar ceiling, that much is clear. Doesn't mean he isn't any good or not worth keeping, but if the new regime really loves a guy and believes he can be a franchise carrying star, you go out and get him. Lets not make the same mistake we made in 2020 when we passed on not one, not two, but THREE franchise QBs because we had a young guy already(albeit Howell has looked much better then Haskins).

 

The biggest thing is that EVERYONE needs to be on the same page. Ownership, FO, HC. We can't have an RG3 situation where the ownership goes out and gets a guy the coach didn't really want. Or 2015-2017 when the coach likes the QB but the FO/ownership doesn't wanna pay him. Or 2019 when the owner goes out and gets a guy that nobody wanted. 

 

Look at when the Ravens drafted Jackson. EVERYONE was all in on him from day one. There was absolutely no disputing that, they were all on the same page. Ditto with Allen on the Bills. Mahomes on the Chiefs. etc. etc. Even the Packers with Love, they were trashed for that pick at the time, but now Love is looking legit. 

 

I'm good with what the new regime wants to do. Me personally? If we have a legit shot at Maye without having to give up too much of the future I'd pull the trigger. I'd take Williams if he fell to us but that ain't happening but I don't love him like others do(not because of his talent but something with his attitude just rubs me the wrong way). I don't like Daniels at all. Too much like RG3 except he's older. He'll be 23 at the start of his rookie year. He's only a couple months younger then Howell who already has a couple years of NFL experience. I don't like any other QB. But again, that's me. If the new regime loves someone else and is all on him then go for it.

 

If you don't have a GUY at QB then you have NO CHANCE. And I don't think any of us should be 100% sold on Howell being a GUY. 

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I said this weeks ago, but it’s even more true today.  This team is horrendously hopeless and only going to get worse by the week and that’s playing out before our eyes.  I don’t think there is much we can learn about Howell that we don’t already know.  
 

 

Keim slaughtered the play calling again this time on the Junkies.  As always, he says things so calmly that it doesn't feel savage but his words have been daggers.   And it hits me because he's typically so diplomatic.

 

This time he was talking about how Miami schemes it up on offense and this team doesn't.  And the spacing for the Wrs is off, etc.

 

They talked about how it looked like Ron delegated running the defense to the young DB coach and whomever was in the booth.  Ron not wearing his head set, etc.

 

Unless I hear and hopefully of course i don't hear that Ron has had some health set backs this year, the dude comes off so lazy.  i was impressed that he was willing to put more on his plate finally with taking over the defense but apparently not so much.  Last year and this year, I kept hearing he was giving his coordinators some of his HC duties -- he was delegating HC duties to Del Rio and Bieineimy. 

 

The idea that he didn't know they were eliminated last year was on point -- how much is he paying attention?

 

Is he still expecting his SB ring?

 

Standig below 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

I still think Howell is the guy going forward. The players have not stopped supporting him either, like they have the coaches.

 

I would also draft a QB twice in this draft. Be it day two or whatever and a late rounder/UDFA and build a strong QB room, but the next coach needs to commit to the starter.

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Jonathan Allen now he said that Ron was heavily involved in meetings, that's cool.  but if he didn't actually call the defense on game day that is a surprise to me if so.

 

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I still think Howell is the guy going forward. The players have not stopped supporting him either, like they have the coaches.

 

I would also draft a QB twice in this draft. Be it day two or whatever and a late rounder/UDFA and build a strong QB room, but the next coach needs to commit to the starter.

 

i like Howell.  i am open to anything at QB though.  If they love Daniels take him.  If they love Nix and he drops to the 2nd take him.  Or whatever including doing nothing and run it back with Howell.  Everything on the table.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Jonathan Allen now he said that Ron was heavily involved in meetings, that's cool.  but if he didn't actually call the defense on game day that is a surprise to me if so.

 

 

i like Howell.  i am open to anything at QB though.  If they love Daniels take him.  If they love Nix and he drops to the 2nd take him.  Or whatever including doing nothing and run it back with Howell.  Everything on the table.

I don't like taking a QB in the 2nd. That's the half arsed approach. You burn a valuable resource to get a guy but you're not really committed to him 100%.

 

If you love a guy, get him early and make him your guy from day one. 

[skinsfan66]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Howell doesn't have a superstar ceiling, that much is clear. Doesn't mean he isn't any good or not worth keeping, but if the new regime really loves a guy and believes he can be a franchise carrying star, you go out and get him. Lets not make the same mistake we made in 2020 when we passed on not one, not two, but THREE franchise QBs because we had a young guy already(albeit Howell has looked much better then Haskins).

 

The biggest thing is that EVERYONE needs to be on the same page. Ownership, FO, HC. We can't have an RG3 situation where the ownership goes out and gets a guy the coach didn't really want. Or 2015-2017 when the coach likes the QB but the FO/ownership doesn't wanna pay him. Or 2019 when the owner goes out and gets a guy that nobody wanted. 

 

Look at when the Ravens drafted Jackson. EVERYONE was all in on him from day one. There was absolutely no disputing that, they were all on the same page. Ditto with Allen on the Bills. Mahomes on the Chiefs. etc. etc. Even the Packers with Love, they were trashed for that pick at the time, but now Love is looking legit. 

 

I'm good with what the new regime wants to do. Me personally? If we have a legit shot at Maye without having to give up too much of the future I'd pull the trigger. I'd take Williams if he fell to us but that ain't happening but I don't love him like others do(not because of his talent but something with his attitude just rubs me the wrong way). I don't like Daniels at all. Too much like RG3 except he's older. He'll be 23 at the start of his rookie year. He's only a couple months younger then Howell who already has a couple years of NFL experience. I don't like any other QB. But again, that's me. If the new regime loves someone else and is all on him then go for it.

 

If you don't have a GUY at QB then you have NO CHANCE. And I don't think any of us should be 100% sold on Howell being a GUY. 

Agree, we have to be open to all things that take place with a high draft pick. If Maye is there and rated franchise stud with the team brass, take him why not ? Trade the one that loses out. I like Howell but the value of a franchise QB is hard to pass. 

[FootballZombie]

Howell sure can take hits... like on a Homer Simpson level. Actually impressive.

 

 

I'm pretty much left where I have been for a while. I still think Howell has been good overall all things considered, but he is being absolutely hung out to dry.

Terrible O line. Horrible play calling. Horrible gameplanning. Nobody getting open. No defensive support. Just the royal screw-job special. 

 

Nobody is succeeding in that position and to put that on a young player is ridiculous. Just treading water in that ecosystem is impressive.

Most weeks we are just demanding one man to go out and beat the entire opposing team. Its some of the stupidest coaching I have ever seen.

 

That Howell is not currently hurt or Ramsey'd is nothing short of miraculous.

 

 

Unfortunately, even tho Howell is not playing garbage level ball his team is. We are getting blown the crud out on a weekly basis. Nobody is helping this kid right now, an that puts Sam in an increased position to pay the price. If we are in position to easily get a QB the new FO believes in, they will not hesitate to move on... and that aint Sam's fault.

[Warhead36]

Another thing to take into account is that Howell's main value is the rookie contract he's on. Well he's played two years already, so half his value is gone in that respect. 

[Koolblue13]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Jonathan Allen now he said that Ron was heavily involved in meetings, that's cool.  but if he didn't actually call the defense on game day that is a surprise to me if so.

 

 

i like Howell.  i am open to anything at QB though.  If they love Daniels take him.  If they love Nix and he drops to the 2nd take him.  Or whatever including doing nothing and run it back with Howell.  Everything on the table.

I'd be disappointed, unless it's Maye with our first and that's not the path I want to take, but I'm sure the new GM will be a lot smarter than I am, which will be a nice change. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Howell doesn't have a superstar ceiling, that much is clear. Doesn't mean he isn't any good or not worth keeping, but if the new regime really loves a guy and believes he can be a franchise carrying star, you go out and get him. Lets not make the same mistake we made in 2020 when we passed on not one, not two, but THREE franchise QBs because we had a young guy already(albeit Howell has looked much better then Haskins).

 

 

Agree.  i don't know for sure whether Howell has a superstar ceiling or not but i can easily see it go either way on that front.  If you forced me to bet, I'd bet on Howell being a good QB -- 11-15 range.  

 

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

 

The biggest thing is that EVERYONE needs to be on the same page. Ownership, FO, HC. We can't have an RG3 situation where the ownership goes out and gets a guy the coach didn't really want. Or 2015-2017 when the coach likes the QB but the FO/ownership doesn't wanna pay him. Or 2019 when the owner goes out and gets a guy that nobody wanted. 

 

Look at when the Ravens drafted Jackson. EVERYONE was all in on him from day one. There was absolutely no disputing that, they were all on the same page. Ditto with Allen on the Bills. Mahomes on the Chiefs. etc. etc. Even the Packers with Love, they were trashed for that pick at the time, but now Love is looking legit. 

 

 

100%

 

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

 

I'm good with what the new regime wants to do. Me personally? If we have a legit shot at Maye without having to give up too much of the future I'd pull the trigger. I'd take Williams if he fell to us but that ain't happening but I don't love him like others do(not because of his talent but something with his attitude just rubs me the wrong way).

 

I think both are unrealstic, so i am giving almost no thought to it.  Only long shot to me is if the Cards end up 2nd, and Murray burns it up in the home stretch.

 

14 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't like Daniels at all. Too much like RG3 except he's older. He'll be 23 at the start of his rookie year. He's only a couple months younger then Howell who already has a couple years of NFL experience. I don't like any other QB. But again, that's me. If the new regime loves someone else and is all on him then go for it.

 

If you don't have a GUY at QB then you have NO CHANCE. And I don't think any of us should be 100% sold on Howell being a GUY. 

 

23 doesnt bother me.  Kirk was 24.   RG3 didn't work out for multiple reasons.  I only compare the two because of their builds.   His build is my concern, can he take an NFL beating?  I'd want him to bulk up.   I am not pounding the table for him, i need to watch more.  But I am definitiely not ruling him out.

 

"Overall, they execute their offense to perfection, and it starts with him [Daniels] because he makes the right reads relative to runs and passes and zone-option plays and pass-down plays," Saban said, per 247Sports. "He's very good at reading coverages and makes really quick decisions.

"All those things were evident last year by the way he played," he continued, "and I think he's probably even better now because he has even more experience and knowledge in the offense, and they've got really good players around him." 

Daniels' improvement has raised LSU's ceiling

Daniels has improved dramatically from 2022 to 2023, and that has not been some kind of fluke. Working with offensive coordinator Mike Denbrock, Daniels started in the summer and fall camp with an intentional focus on improving as a deep ball passer. It's paid off, both on a down-to-down basis and with big, explosive plays. Daniels has jumped from averaging 7.5 yards per drop back to 11.5 yards per drop back, and he leads the nation with 23 passing plays of 30-plus yards. 

 

A Burrow-like campaign

If the story of an LSU transfer quarterback taking a jump from one year to the next sounds familiar, the numbers certainly back it up. Joe Burrow was a serviceable quarterback for LSU in 2018, with then-sophomore Justin Jefferson and then-freshman Ja'Marr Chase serving as productive and important pieces of the Tigers' passing attack. But when Burrow leveled up to his Heisman Trophy-caliber of performance in 2019, so too did Chase and Jefferson. Like Nabers and Thomas, they soared to the top of the sport in both receiving yards and touchdowns, combining for more than 3,300 yards and 38 touchdown by the conclusion of LSU's 15-game title march. Chase and Jefferson always had talent that positioned them for an NFL future, but Burrow's year-over-year improvement aided in the highest levels of success in college.

And as we prepare for Saturday night's massive showdown against Alabama, Daniels finds himself nearly in-step with the 2019 edition of Burrow at this point in this season.  

 

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/lsus-jayden-daniels-following-familiar-path-to-heisman-trophy-contention-ahead-of-massive-clash-vs-alabama/

 

 

Quick game to check out Daniels for those interested.  And there is plenty of games to cherry pick from, he's had a monster season.  Great showcase game for Brian Thomas Jr, for those who like him, that includes me.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't like taking a QB in the 2nd. That's the half arsed approach. You burn a valuable resource to get a guy but you're not really committed to him 100%.

 

If you love a guy, get him early and make him your guy from day one. 

 

I get the point but I am not stuck on a rule when drafting.  Just like it was an exception that Howell fell to the 5th or the Eagles (I read a long story about this) had Hurts in their sights in the 2nd -- Shanny and Kyle scoping out Kirk and Wilson after the first, exceptions exist.

 

Like in 2012 when there was a deep draft at that spot this feels in theory similar, if Brugler ends up right in that he heard that teams he's talked to see Penix and Nix as 2nd rounders and lets say they indeed fall and this brass thinks the league is sleeping on one of them, then pull the trigger.

 

All depends on circumstance for me.  

[Warhead36]

Yeah I just can't get into these gimmicky run to set up the pass type QBs. I mean sure he could be Lamar Jackson but Jackson was younger(only 21 his rookie year) and won a Heisman carrying a Louisville team that is not a perennial powerhouse. 

[DJHJR86]

 

 

People actually want to hire him as the next GM.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I just can't get into these gimmicky run to set up the pass type QBs. I mean sure he could be Lamar Jackson but Jackson was younger(only 21 his rookie year) and won a Heisman carrying a Louisville team that is not a perennial powerhouse. 

 

Lamar's birthday is January 7h,  Daniels Decemeber 18th.  If Lamar was 21 his rookie year, that means he turned 22 in early January. Jayden will be a whopping 22 for most of his rookie year and then turn 23 in Decemeber.  So unless am missing something.  it's basically a one year difference. 

 

To me his age is nothing burger.  There are younger QBs who have come out.  There are older ones.

 

Better passer than Lamar was in college.  Among other things, Lamar with a 57% completion percentage in college.  Jayden right now over 72% with sick stats as a passer.  I recall the narratives at the time about whether Lamar should even be a Qb in the pros -- obviously they were wrong about that.

 

Seems like you are stuck on narratives about Jayden.  i am not sold or unsold on Jayden, I need to watch more.  But there is nothing about the narratives about him that scare me off.  

 

lol, even though i am arguing back with you, i don't know as to Jayden.  But I know enough to think its not crazy to consider.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[RWJ]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Speak volumes, in a bad way?

 

If so not for me.  I don't want the GM to be emotional about this or that.  Be clinical, be an assassain.  Judge Sam versus the prospects.  does one have a distinctly higher ceiling?  If not run it back with Howell.  If you think a Qb in this draft is special and better than Howell, take that QB. 

 

I've been in the Howell camp from the jump.  And I still like him.  And yes I am projecting him already with what if he had a better supporting cast?  If I am judging him purely on how he played, while I like most of it, I'd have no problem passing on him because of inconsistency.  But he's young and you can see the potential, if he had an O line, better receivers, better play calling THEN.....and i expect the consistency to come with more experience and a better supporting cast.

 

So my mind is locked in that I think he's a good QB in the league.  I just don't know if this dude is going to be great.  My mind is mixed on that.

 

Keim who like me is a fan of Howell just said (as I think) you can't ignore QB in this draft, you got to consider it.  i agree.  I am not saying pull the trigger but I think it would be lazy from the new GM to not go through the trouble of digesting these QBs and considering the ceiling of them versus Howell.

 

My gut is they don't go QB.  And i am cool with that.  But I want them to consider everything.  We deserve a great team as Josh Harris said he's striving for.   Not saying Howell isn't the guy to make this team great but IMO it feels that great is a wildcard with Howell.  Granted its wildcard with any unproven QB but if the GM feels one of these guys ceiling is a clear peg higher, then take that dude.  If he doesn't, then don't.

 

This isn't in theory an ordinary draft.  It's seems unusually stacked at QB.  We are picking high.  One of our division rivals are picking high, too.  Like I said this GM would be condemned a lot more if they allow NY to get the higher ceiling QB who plagues this team for years.  That would be more damning to me than hey he didn't patiently build around Howell.  Again if this is how they see it.  I am not saying I see it this way.  I don't know.  But it also doesn't feel crazy to me. 

 

Aside from winning or losing, they got a zillion fans in the DMV wearing Lamar Jackson jerseys and some argue that was a contributing factor for the Ravens gaining fans at this team's expense.  I would think it would at least garner some consideration for this FO if they think they are passing over the next Lamar type (again if they feel that way about him) and watch him play against this team for the next 12 years or so.

 

In short, I think its a complicated decision versus a no brainer.  And i am glad we won't have Dan, Bruce, Vinny or Ron making this call.

I agree with most of what you say and I THINK you do too but you have mentioned and I have too Oline and weapons are needed along with Defense.  It will take time.  FA doesn't look all that hot right now to me just overlooking what could be out there because it will change.  We get a new Oline, 3 as you mentioned in a post earlier in the 1st 3 rounds and some weapons then the O can be good.  We know the D needed help but both the O and D need much better coaching as this coaching staff and its HC are the pits and the F.O. too.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

People actually want to hire him as the next GM.

 

People is a really wide open term.  Facebook group posters and Twitter fans are technically people, but dumber than most animals.

 

I have zero interest in Riddick and never have in the past.  But not because of that comment.  I think we all know what point he’s making, but that moves to a tailgate-like topic.

At the end of the day, I don’t see his move here as a lateral move considering he never called plays and given what we’ve seen, it’s fair to question what he actually contributed to KC’s offense.  

 

[NYSkins21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Another factor is you have the Qb if you’re taken in the first for the next 5 years on the cheap. You got Howell for 2 more years on the cheap.

 

my point isn’t give up on Howell. I actually like Howell and not even a whit of my thoughts center on giving up on him. I think he likely has the goods. 
 

My question is his ceiling versus someone else in a draft uniquely in theory stacked at QB and with unique circumstances that give more weight and consequences if you get it wrong.

 

I don’t know what I would do but I do know I would consider it because to me one decision over another isn’t a no brainer easy call 

That’s where I’m at with Howell. I like Howell a lot. I think he could be a very good QB in this league. Not great but very good. But by the time we right this ship and give him the protection he needs, we lose his rookie contract and will need to pay him.

 

With new ownership, front office and coaching in place, I’d like to see us blow up what we have.

 

Draft a QB with this years first. Whether it be Williams, Maye or Daniels. See what kind of interest there is in trading for Howell. Build the OL this year and next through the draft/FA and let them develop together.

 

I feel we missed the boat with Howell. Blow this up and restart. From a PR standpoint, you have to think now would be good time for it and ownership has to asking within… “How much worse can it get?”.

[RWJ]

49 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't like taking a QB in the 2nd. That's the half arsed approach. You burn a valuable resource to get a guy but you're not really committed to him 100%.

 

If you love a guy, get him early and make him your guy from day one. 

Use one of our 3rds on Pratt from Tulane.  I have been screaming this QB.  

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by RWJ

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, RWJ said:

I agree with most of what you say and I THINK you do too but you have mentioned and I have too Oline and weapons are needed along with Defense.  It will take time.  FA doesn't look all that hot right now to me just overlooking what could be out there because it will change.  We get a new Oline, 3 as you mentioned in a post earlier in the 1st 3 rounds and some weapons then the O can be good.  We know the D needed help but both the O and D need much better coaching as this coaching staff and its HC are the pits and the F.O. too.  

 

All of that is true.

 

I think its one heck of a decision for the new GM.

 

A.  You got a QB who has teased enough that he can be the goods but what version of being the goods can he be -- good or great?

 

B.  You got potentially one of the best WR prospects in eons, one of the best TEs and IMO high end LT prospects

 

C.  You got in theory a deep draft at need spots like the O line.  

 

D.  If you pick ahead of the Giants and you skip a QB, they likely pick the QB you skip.

 

Everything feels calm now because nothing has played out.  But lets say they discard Howell and he becomes great elsewhere?  Or lets say they don't and ends up just average to good and the QB they passed over is killing it with the Giants?

 

For me I want the new GM to consider all of this.

 

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

All of that is true.

 

I think its one heck of a decision for the new GM.

 

A.  You got a QB who has teased enough that he can be the goods but what version of being the goods can he be -- good or great?

 

B.  You got potentially one of the best WR prospects in eons, one of the best TEs and IMO high end LT prospects

 

C.  You got in theory a deep draft at need spots like the O line.  

 

D.  If you pick ahead of the Giants and you skip a QB, they likely pick the QB you skip.

 

Everything feels calm now because nothing has played out.  But lets say they discard Howell and he becomes great elsewhere?  Or lets say they don't and ends up just average to good and the QB they passed over is killing it with the Giants?

 

For me I want the new GM to consider all of this.

 

Absolutely and he will.  He has too.  I think in the end and both of us do, Howell has two cheap years on his contract.  I think they go with him and they should take a QB, you know I like Pratt, semi early (2nd 3rd round pick).  You have seen my mock with two TEs and we need help at ILB and both that I have listed are multi-LB types.  Best options in FA and they aren't great right now is secondary from what I see but I could be mssing something, SIP. 

[DJHJR86]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

At the end of the day, I don’t see his move here as a lateral move considering he never called plays and given what we’ve seen, it’s fair to question what he actually contributed to KC’s offense.  

 

Riddick wasn't the only one banging that drum.  It was Kansas City's worst kept secret.  Everyone (outside of some Bieniemy truthers on social media) knew that Reid and Mahomes were the reason for Kansas City's success on offense.  But you had people in the media like Riddick practically having aneurisms week in and week out about what more did Bieniemy have to do to become a head coach since he's proven himself in Kansas City.  

[srtman04]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Howell doesn't have a superstar ceiling, that much is clear. Doesn't mean he isn't any good or not worth keeping, but if the new regime really loves a guy and believes he can be a franchise carrying star, you go out and get him. Lets not make the same mistake we made in 2020 when we passed on not one, not two, but THREE franchise QBs because we had a young guy already(albeit Howell has looked much better then Haskins).

 

 

 

Not sure why you keep saying this or how you've come to such a determination this soon.  Howell's stats are on pace to surpass Peyton Manning's first rookie year and you say he "doesn't have a superstar ceiling"?    Really Dude?  

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, srtman04 said:

 

Not sure why you keep saying this or how you've come to such a determination this soon.  Howell's stats are on pace to surpass Peyton Manning's first rookie year and you say he "doesn't have a superstar ceiling"?    Really Dude?  

We don't know yet about superstar ceiling but with all that crap they have given Howell to work with (i.e., OLine in particular and playcalling (EB), he can do much better with a fresh, new F.O. and coaching staff.  

[srtman04]

3 minutes ago, RWJ said:

We don't know yet about superstar ceiling but with all that crap they have given Howell to work with (i.e., OLine in particular and playcalling (EB), he can do much better with a fresh, new F.O. and coaching staff.  

 

I think alot of people can't look past his draft position and automatically label him a certain status based on where he was drafted.