The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Conn]

Just now, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Will all due respect, there will Always be a hyped QB up-and-comer. If I remember correctly, wasn't Jimmy Clausen super hyped up leading to the draft as this great QB? Who did Washington end up going with in 2010 at No. 4? Trent Williams. You get guys who you think will make your team better. That doesn't always mean QB. Believe me, this team definitely needs to focus on the O-line.

 

Howell 2024. Another QB in 2025 if needed.

He laid out all the reasons why already, and you just ignored them so idk why I’m posting, but you’re just wrong about that. There is not always a worthy blue chip QB prospect (nevermind whether we’d be high enough to draft them anyways). 

 

And no, Clausen was a 2nd round pick. So he obviously doesn’t fit the criteria as an example of how there’s always a potential blue chip riser QB prospect in every class. 

[zCommander]

It is quite interesting that the idea here is that what if we don't take a QB in 2024, say at the #3 or #4 spot then we won't have a chance like this again in 2025. This type of thinking is that somehow Howell will not be good enough to get us into the playoffs next year but will have a 8-9 season and therefore not be able to pick higher in 2025.

 

But we already know pretty much what Howell has been able to do with our current OL. So building the OL and other players around him will make this team a deep playoff team. Why would I care who the top QB is in 2025 at that point? 

 

If you stand back and look at all the games that we have lost so far this year, how many we could have won if had a legit or even a semi-legit D? Is a QB allowed to have a bad day at the office, of course he does. You are not going to win them all. Just like last year when the Eagles were unbeaten and we beat them. It happens to even the best of the best. Hell we almost beat them twice this year but apparently couldn't do so but still went toe to toe with them but ironically we lose twice to the lowly Giants (something is so weird about this NY team like a hex or something lol).

 

My point, the idea of let's run this guy out of town because he has already been here 2 years instead of let's build something so this guy can possibly be the future for the next 10 years instead. I like to set long term goals as in the past these short term goals haven't worked for the last 25+ years and if a GM is smart he will see that as well. The plus on this is that if Howell in year 4 falters all you have to do is get a vet (like the Rams) and win it all since you will already have a great supporting cast in place. 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

18 minutes ago, Conn said:

He laid out all the reasons why already, and you just ignored them so idk why I’m posting, but you’re just wrong about that. There is not always a worthy blue chip QB prospect (nevermind whether we’d be high enough to draft them anyways). 

 

And no, Clausen was a 2nd round pick. So he obviously doesn’t fit the criteria as an example of how there’s always a potential blue chip riser QB prospect in every class. 

Ok, my bad. To meet your criteria of first-rounder: Sam Bradford. A "can't miss" prospect picked one overall and ended up with 18 touchdowns and 15 interceptions over 16 games in his first year. 

 

Point being is it's all just a gamble.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Professor_Nutter_Butter

[Conn]

Just now, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Ok, to meet your criteria of first-rounder: Sam Bradford. A "can't miss" prospect picked one overall and ended up with a QBR of 46.9, 18 touchdowns and 15 interceptions over 16 games.

Sam Bradford was a great prospect who had injury issues. I can also name random players that came out each year, I don’t think being able to name Sam Bradford (who was hyped ahead of time and didn’t just emerge) proves your point that every single year has a blue chip QB worth taking who emerges. 
 

And you still haven’t addressed that even IF you were correct, we’re rarely drafting high enough to take advantage of it any given year. That’s why if you’re at 3rd overall, you have to at least consider it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

I don't care what the Giants do, other than for laughing purposes when they take Flowers, or Saquon, or Danny Nickels etc, but I dont think we should care what they do. Our problems are so much worse than theirs. We've been horrible for 30 years, they've made 3 super bowls just in the last 23 years despite being average or suck for most of that era in general. We've barely won a playoff game since 1993 (what, 1999, and 2005?). We are utterly irrelevant, and shouldn't consider them. We should make the best decisions in the long term interest of the franchise. If the QB is a guy that makes sense, take him. If he doesn't, pass and take one of the best in positional cohort prospects (OL, TE, Edge (gag) or WR). Go from there. This is a 2-3 year fix if everything goes right, caring what our division is doing while we attempt to rebuild this mess is silly.

 

The DB's suck

The LB's suck

The Edge's suck

the OL sucks

The WR's are below average

The running game is meh

the ST's are okay.

 

That takes years to fix. Make the smart, good process decisions. No quick fixes, no short term thinking, think long term, best allocation of draft capital, and salary cap funds, and go from there. 

 

The Giants issue is being warped unintentionally in this debate.

 

I'll say it again i am never taking a player because some other team would take them.  I'd be a moron.   And I've never advocated something that stupid.

 

My point is if they take or don't take a QB  -- lets say they don't and that QB shines with the Giants and whatever decision this GM makes doesn't work out --- it will make his decision look worse.

 

Heck Giants fans crow about they got Andrew Thomas and we got Chase.  Deonte Banks is pissy that we took Forbes and not him.  If the Giants and not us get the next Lamar Jackson when we pass over him. Again i am not saying Jayden is Lamar, I don't know but lets say worse case scenaro.  then heck year its going to be part of that dude's narrative as to his career.  And our new Gm will have to own it. 

 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

18 minutes ago, zCommander said:

It is quite interesting that the idea here is that what if we don't take a QB in 2024, say at the #3 or #4 spot then we won't have a chance like this again in 2025. This type of thinking is that somehow Howell will not be good enough to get us into the playoffs next year but will have a 8-9 season and therefore not be able to pick higher in 2025.

 

But we already know pretty much what Howell has been able to do with our current OL. So building the OL and other players around him will make this team a deep playoff team. Why would I care who the top QB is in 2025 at that point? 

 

If you stand back and look at all the games that we have lost so far this year, how many we could have won if had a legit or even a semi-legit D? Is a QB allowed to have a bad day at the office, of course he does. You are not going to win them all. Just like last year when the Eagles were unbeaten and we beat them. It happens to even the best of the best. Hell we almost beat them twice this year but apparently couldn't do so but still went toe to toe with them but ironically we lose twice to the lowly Giants (something is so weird about this NY team like a hex or something lol).

 

My point, the idea of let's run this guy out of town because he has already been here 2 years instead of let's build something so this guy can possibly be the future for the next 10 years instead. I like to set long term goals as in the past these short term goals haven't worked for the last 25+ years and if a GM is smart he will see that as well. The plus on this is that if Howell in year 4 falters all you have to do is get a vet (like the Rams) and win it all since you will already have a great supporting cast in place. 

That easy huh? Lol 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

1 minute ago, Conn said:

Sam Bradford was a great prospect who had injury issues. I can also name random players that came out each year, I don’t think being able to name Sam Bradford (who was hyped ahead of time and didn’t just emerge) proves your point that every single year has a blue chip QB worth taking who emerges. 
 

And you still haven’t addressed that even IF you were correct, we’re rarely drafting high enough to take advantage of it any given year. That’s why if you’re at 3rd overall, you have to at least consider it. 

The only injury Bradford had in college -- at least reported that I could find -- was his shoulder in 2009. I list Bradford because it's kinda relevant considering we're in a similar situation (trash team with a high pick) and there's talk of O-lineman or QB.

 

And ok, sure, consider a new QB. But really how much good is he going to be if he's on his ass within like two seconds most times he drops back to pass? 

[Conn]

26 minutes ago, zCommander said:

It is quite interesting that the idea here is that what if we don't take a QB in 2024, say at the #3 or #4 spot then we won't have a chance like this again in 2025.
 

 

That is usually how it goes for us, so it’s a natural way to think about it. We’ve bottomed out only every 4-5 years and rarely when it would actually be good to do so.

 

26 minutes ago, zCommander said:

But we already know pretty much what Howell has been able to do with our current OL. So building the OL and other players around him will make this team a deep playoff team. Why would I care who the top QB is in 2025 at that point? 

Huh? We know he can go (likely) 4-13 with this current OL, why would it naturally follow that with an improved OL this is a deep playoff team? That’s an enormous leap. Even if you take for granted we’d automatically have a playoff caliber offense, this team currently has no defense. So yeah, likely that would lead to being a middle-of-the-road team. 8-9 maybe. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Conn said:

Have really appreciated reading the thoughtful, considering-both-sides posting of @The Consigliere and @Skinsinparadise in this thread. This is going to be an enormous moment for our franchise. Anyone posting confidently like it’s obvious what the answer is on this topic is being irrational. The ONLY rational stance imo is essentially what SIP is arguing—that even if you like Howell, you’d be an idiot not to at least consider another high-upside option if we’re drafting high enough to take one without a franchise-altering trade. Consider deeply. 
 

Maybe none of this matters bc we end up beating the Jets and QB isn’t even an option. Could very well happen. But anyone who thinks they can boil this down to a black and white definite answer today on 12/4/23 is frankly full of ****. 

 

Great summary.

 

I am not arguing for or against Howell in this context.  I've more than earned my stripes backing and defending Howell on this thread and elsewhere.  I am a fan of him.  If you read my posts on this thread I'd have to be at least top 5 as to having Howell's back even when it wasn't cool. 

 

But I am not emotionally tied to any player.  I am emotionally tied to the success of this team. 

 

If we end up picking in the top 5.   Just by chance we might have the chance to get the Heisman Trophy winner who had a sick season.  i am not saying we take him.  But the idea of just shrugging it off and ignoring that dynamic seems crazy to me.  

 

Can the GM digest this dynamic and decide Howell is the dude let Daniels go to New York or whomever, cool with me.  But I think this needs to be digested and considered.  And everyone that I noticed that covers this team agrees.  it's worth giving some thought, that's all.  My argument is its not a no brainer to just ignore this dynamic if they pick top 5.

 

 

 

  

Edited December 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

Harrison would be the num 1 pick in most other years.

[KDawg]

I think it’s pretty easy. We need to upgrade the OL or the QB means squat. Does that mean you have to draft OL? Not necessarily. Though I don’t see a great path to upgrade without that but there are some opportunities.

 

My bigger issue with going QB is that I don’t believe in either of the two big prospects.

 

I’m most intrigued by Daniels upside. I think Rattler is an interesting mid round option that, if he develops, has really high upside but also a mediocre at best case of making that improvement.

 

So, I can’t argue that we have to keep Howell or have to draft OL. But I can argue that I think the OL FA options are meh, the QB draft options are iffy and the OL draft class is deep and solid. And therefore, I think improving the OL via draft is our biggest upgrade.

 

But who knows.

[Daniel.redskins]

One thing I know for sure, this will be a long debate all off-season. Howell or Daniels. I think it's a lock that Williams and Maye will be gone by 4-6 pick.  

 

I'm a huge Howell fan, but unfortunately I don't see him playing any better this season.  The oline and tight ends are getting worse by the week.  Daniels is on the skinny side, I honestly don't think he can take the hits Howell does behind this atrocious oline.  

 

I'm on the tackle in the first round side.  But I can't argue if people feel Daniels is a better prospect.  Tough, tough decision. 

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

So, I can’t argue that we have to keep Howell or have to draft OL. But I can argue that I think the OL FA options are meh, the QB draft options are iffy and the OL draft class is deep and solid. And therefore, I think improving the OL via draft is our biggest upgrade.

 

 

This!  What I took from your post.  The meat of it.  

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

It is quite interesting that the idea here is that what if we don't take a QB in 2024, say at the #3 or #4 spot then we won't have a chance like this again in 2025. This type of thinking is that somehow Howell will not be good enough to get us into the playoffs next year but will have a 8-9 season and therefore not be able to pick higher in 2025.

 

But we already know pretty much what Howell has been able to do with our current OL. So building the OL and other players around him will make this team a deep playoff team. Why would I care who the top QB is in 2025 at that point? 

 

If you stand back and look at all the games that we have lost so far this year, how many we could have won if had a legit or even a semi-legit D? Is a QB allowed to have a bad day at the office, of course he does. You are not going to win them all. Just like last year when the Eagles were unbeaten and we beat them. It happens to even the best of the best. Hell we almost beat them twice this year but apparently couldn't do so but still went toe to toe with them but ironically we lose twice to the lowly Giants (something is so weird about this NY team like a hex or something lol).

 

My point, the idea of let's run this guy out of town because he has already been here 2 years instead of let's build something so this guy can possibly be the future for the next 10 years instead. I like to set long term goals as in the past these short term goals haven't worked for the last 25+ years and if a GM is smart he will see that as well. The plus on this is that if Howell in year 4 falters all you have to do is get a vet (like the Rams) and win it all since you will already have a great supporting cast in place. 

My God, I'm shocked I agree with you. Spot on, buddy. Or almost. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Professor_Nutter_Butter

[Skinsinparadise]

@Koolblue13 guest appearance on this segment?

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

One thing I know for sure, this will be a long debate all off-season. Howell or Daniels. I think it's a lock that Williams and Maye will be gone by 4-6 pick.  

 

I'm a huge Howell fan, but unfortunately I don't see him playing any better this season.  The oline and tight ends are getting worse by the week.  Daniels is on the skinny side, I honestly don't think he can take the hits Howell does behind this atrocious oline.  

 

I'm on the tackle in the first round side.  But I can't argue if people feel Daniels is a better prospect.  Tough, tough decision. 

 

I agree with most of this.  The point is its a real decision.   That's not a shot at Howell like some are making it.  i am one of Howell's biggest fans here.  But this is not some no brainer, it doesn't deserve any thought type of decision IMO. 

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

@Koolblue13 guest appearance on this segment?

 

 

 

I say both were exposed. 

[CTskin]

I don’t have strong feeling for or against sticking with Howell, but I certainly lean toward seeing what he can do with NFL-level talent around him / protecting him.

As a UMass grad, the one knock I could always throw at Brady and my masshole friends was that he was sub-par when he faced pressure… 

 

same deal goes for bienemy. He got dealt a trash hand by inheriting an offense that consisted of average weapons and the worst OL ever created.

 

I’m just counting down the days until we have a new braintrust to see what they can do with the extra picks and plenty of cap.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, RWJ said:

I say both were exposed. 

 

@Koolblue13 and Bieniemy?

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

It is quite interesting that the idea here is that what if we don't take a QB in 2024, say at the #3 or #4 spot then we won't have a chance like this again in 2025. This type of thinking is that somehow Howell will not be good enough to get us into the playoffs next year but will have a 8-9 season and therefore not be able to pick higher in 2025.

 

But we already know pretty much what Howell has been able to do with our current OL. So building the OL and other players around him will make this team a deep playoff team. Why would I care who the top QB is in 2025 at that point? 

 

If you stand back and look at all the games that we have lost so far this year, how many we could have won if had a legit or even a semi-legit D? Is a QB allowed to have a bad day at the office, of course he does. You are not going to win them all. Just like last year when the Eagles were unbeaten and we beat them. It happens to even the best of the best. Hell we almost beat them twice this year but apparently couldn't do so but still went toe to toe with them but ironically we lose twice to the lowly Giants (something is so weird about this NY team like a hex or something lol).

 

My point, the idea of let's run this guy out of town because he has already been here 2 years instead of let's build something so this guy can possibly be the future for the next 10 years instead. I like to set long term goals as in the past these short term goals haven't worked for the last 25+ years and if a GM is smart he will see that as well. The plus on this is that if Howell in year 4 falters all you have to do is get a vet (like the Rams) and win it all since you will already have a great supporting cast in place. 

With each week, watching Sam, it's becoming clear to me that he is actually very good and more comfortable moving around making plays than he is sitting in the pocket waiting to get smoked. When he can use his legs he is a real play-maker and seems to be able to protect himself better. He's also harder to defend. This is the kind of QB I hope a new staff comes in and brings out. Yesterday one of the analysts talked about the clock in a QB's head: "Count one, two and then start looking to move around if it's not there." He said that's how young QB's are commonly taught. Wish I could remember who said it, maybe it was Schlereth? 

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

@Koolblue13 and Bieniemy?

 

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

@Koolblue13 and Bieniemy?

No. 😆 RR and EB.  

[Warhead36]

Id like to see what Howell can do with a real offensive scheme and OL but if the regime feels a guy in this class can be a star you have to go for it.

[Skinsinparadise]

Pretty wacky this story.  Jets want to give the job back to Zach but Zach doesn't want it.  Talk about mentally soft.

 

 

 

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Pretty wacky this story.  Jets want to give the job back to Zach but Zach doesn't want it.  Talk about mentally soft.

 

 

 

Yep.  Jets spent a #2 overall on this guy and he has had other issues as well in the past.  Maybe he wants out.  With his stats and I think the Jets would be happy to oblige but looks like he will be cut rather than someone taking on his salary.  

 

 

[kingdaddy]

36 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think it’s pretty easy. We need to upgrade the OL or the QB means squat. Does that mean you have to draft OL? Not necessarily. Though I don’t see a great path to upgrade without that but there are some opportunities.

 

My bigger issue with going QB is that I don’t believe in either of the two big prospects.

 

I’m most intrigued by Daniels upside. I think Rattler is an interesting mid round option that, if he develops, has really high upside but also a mediocre at best case of making that improvement.

 

So, I can’t argue that we have to keep Howell or have to draft OL. But I can argue that I think the OL FA options are meh, the QB draft options are iffy and the OL draft class is deep and solid. And therefore, I think improving the OL via draft is our biggest upgrade.

 

But who knows.

How would you feel about going with Bowers (TE) at 4 or 5 and then going O-line with the next two picks or grabbing the best available early in round 2 if a great prospect falls that far? 

I guess it depends on how Bowers grades out but he could be a game changer for Howell. If it's that deep of an O-line class then maybe we can get two good ones in round 2? Or is that too risky given our needs?

[Koolblue13]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

@Koolblue13 and Bieniemy?

I most certainly was watching that game alone in a bathrobe drunk and high af