The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[DogofWar1]

"Hello and thank you all for attending," Peters said as he shut the iron gate to the small concrete room from the opposite side of Maye, Penix, and JJ.

 

"You may be confused, but to put it simply, the New York Giants are considering trading up for one of you, or, in Pocket Penix's case, trading back for him, and we simply can't have that.  We are intent on damning them to more seasons of Daniel Jones, and thus, you will all wait here until the draft is over and your disappearances have resulted in the Giants taking someone else."

 

"Oh and we also hid Nabors somewhere, don't want him going there either."

[Skinsinparadise]

I think this is the only team meeting with players this week?  

 

Shows a lack of preperation that they want to squeeze every second of preperation.

 

I tell my kids all the time, you either know it or don't know it when prepping for an exam -- more repetition and more information is the enemy not your friend.

 

Dan by reputation would make decisions based on emotion and gut - now the method was the right one, he was just bad at it.  Maybe Peters will be a bit more spontaneous and shoot from the hip more going forward -- and learn more information isn't his friend?  Will see.  

 

He needs to get more with it as to this century.  Google is a big time stock for a reason.  All the scouting answers exist on Youtube.   And its annoying that the sap has no idea that he can spend a good few hours watching it and figure it all out without wasting these players time with these pesky zoom calls, meetings, visits, etc.

Edited April 16 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This is where I am landing, too. I’m not sure it’s a mistake yet - I see the value. But there are major concerns there as far as frame and I’m curious what he can do against NFL defenses with lesser weapons, too. I don’t know, something feels a bit off with him to me. I think he takes a specific circumstance that I’m not sure this program is ready for.

 

His game feels very smoke and mirrors to me.  It's fundamentally limited, he does everything he can to conceal those limitations, and it did take a very specific circumstance over five years of college ball for him to finally appear to be an early round NFL prospect.  I don't think his accuracy, field vision, playmaking instincts, or arm talent are special at all.  I don't want us to be the team that gets stuck holding the bag when everyone realizes that the emperor has no clothes with this kid, and oh yeah lol I guess we over thought it with Drake Maye.  Who could have known?  Oh well, in X GM to follow Adam Peters I trust.  I can be dumb, but I wonder if that outcome would finally get the lesson to stick for me that my team is a hopeless, bottom tier franchise?

[philibusters]

33 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This is where I am landing, too. I’m not sure it’s a mistake yet - I see the value. But there are major concerns there as far as frame and I’m curious what he can do against NFL defenses with lesser weapons, too. I don’t know, something feels a bit off with him to me. I think he takes a specific circumstance that I’m not sure this program is ready for.

 

i am on the Drake Maye bandwagon, though I am not particularly confident.  I am not a QB evaluator and I know it.  That doesn't stop me from having a take, but it does stop me from taking my take all that seriously.

[KDawg]

Just now, philibusters said:

 

i am on the Drake Maye bandwagon, though I am not particularly confident.  I am not a QB evaluator and I know it.  That doesn't stop me from having a take, but it does stop me from taking my take all that seriously.

 

I, uh, agree?

[CommanderInTheRye]

2 minutes ago, philibusters said:

I am not a QB evaluator and I know it.  That doesn't stop me from having a take, but it does stop me from taking my take all that seriously.

 

 

This is pure wisdom, disguised as levity.

 

Perfect take.

[Warhead36]

4 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

His game feels very smoke and mirrors to me.  It's fundamentally limited, he does everything he can to conceal those limitations, and it did take a very specific circumstance over five years of college ball for him to finally appear to be an early round NFL prospect.  I don't think his accuracy, field vision, playmaking instincts, or arm talent are special at all.  I don't want us to be the team that gets stuck holding the bag when everyone realizes that the emperor has no clothes with this kid, and oh yeah lol I guess we over thought it with Drake Maye.  Who could have known?  Oh well, in X GM to follow Adam Peters I trust.  I can be dumb, but I wonder if that outcome would finally get the lesson to stick for me that my team is a hopeless, bottom tier franchise?

I've been rewatching Daniels film. I just...don't see it at all. Almost every throw is to a wide open receiver and mostly on the very first read. There are very few if any down the middle throws into tight windows. He does a good job running around to buy time for someone to get open but how sustainable is that in the NFL? Admittedly, his deep ball is excellent with really good placement, and I could see Daniels to McLaurin lighting it up this year. But the best QBs make their money by consistently hitting the 15-25 yarders down the middle. That is not Daniels's specialty at all. 

 

Again he does have clean footwork and mechanics, and his release is lightning quick which I love, but I don't see a special NFL QB for the next decade. At best I see a flash in the pan before inevitable injury due to body type/play style. I don't see a year in year out perennial Pro Bowl type QB unless we're somehow able to surround him with the same type of talent advantage he had at LSU every year, which is impossible because then after we pay him big bucks the team around him will deteriorate and he has shown no ability to elevate a program.

[Dah-Dee]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Sharp has been out to get Maye for months.  First guy to put Maye out of the top ten in a mock.  The list of people who are going to look bad if Maye excels is somewhat long:  Randy Mueller, Chris Simms, Berkert, Sharp among others.

 

While I do get why some could prefer Daniels.  I don't get all the hate Maye gets from some quarters.  Besides being a good player IMO, he also comes off like a super nice guy.

 

 

 

I don't see these particular posts as 'out to get Maye' - looks like the same kind of useful metrics we've seen on Daniels, and seems to confirm the accuracy issues for Maye. The clean pocket grades are widely considered to be more stable/sticky than those under pressure - which seems weird to me but okay - so these on-target analytics for Maye are worrisome. 

 

Also interesting to see how much the UNC pass-pro improved from 2022 to 2023, throws a wrench in the argument that Maye regressed due to poor OL play.

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

i am on the Drake Maye bandwagon, though I am not particularly confident.  I am not a QB evaluator and I know it.  That doesn't stop me from having a take, but it does stop me from taking my take all that seriously.

 

I am big time Drake Maye but not in the Daniels is a disaster camp.

 

But yeah not only don't I believe that I cracked that elusive QB code that no one else has in the history of scouting -- but I don't just assume that apparently other personnel people-coaches are morons and I understand the spot better.

 

Look I totally get those that say its a crap shoot, so why can't their crap shoot take be as valid as the professionals?  OK, that's fine.  But to extend that point that they are confident that they are smarter than scouts as to their evaluation is a bridge too far for me but to each their own.

 

If I felt Daniels is a bad player or vastly inferior to Drake Maye than why worry about Peters taking him?   I respect just about everyone giving a hard take on these QBs.  But would i want name this person on this thread running the FO?  Nope.  Do I think our fans would well receive a hire from this board to take over this team?  Nope.    So am I either trusting the dude running the team or am not. 

 

If the dude running the team proves to suck at their job, then heck yeah I'd be out on them.  I trusted heck even Bruce and Ron initially before turning on them.  I need a sample size before writing anyone off.  But I am going to at least let one draft unfold before landing on the idea that Peters reputation is inflated, don't believe the hype, he sucks at what he does.  Because for me if it was that egregious to take Daniels, if he did it, he would suck at his job clearly.  And maybe Peters does suck?  Will see.  But I am giving him a chance before writing him off just because he may or may not meet my draft board.

 

If I thought that highly about my draft board and acumen I'd consider myself a loser for hanging out here.  I am passionate about football.  More so than my current job.  So if I was that level good, I'd try to work my way up in a FO and expect over time I'd be running a team.  I'd be a fool to waste my talents on a blog.  I'd be working in the league.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

I don't see these particular posts as 'out to get Maye' - looks like the same kind of useful metrics we've seen on Daniels, and seems to confirm the accuracy issues for Maye. The clean pocket grades are widely considered to be more stable/sticky than those under pressure - which seems weird to me but okay - so these on-target analytics for Maye are worrisome. 

 

Also interesting to see how much the UNC pass-pro improved from 2022 to 2023, throws a wrench in the argument that Maye regressed due to poor OL play.

 

Out to get in that context of it being over the top.  Sharp putting Maye out of his top 10 in a mock felt like him being a hipster to get attention.

 

Simms saying that Maye is the 6th best QB in this draft also feels sort of like a hipster position to get attention.

 

Randy Mueller saying he watched him in personal multiple games live and he was underwhelmed and compare him to Mac Jones -- feels over the top.

 

Look a ton of people as part of the draft process say Daniels > Maye.  And some of them say its not even close.  And I got no beef with that even though I disagree.  But the ones that really hammer Maye with an over the top take feels to me as attention seeking. 

Edited April 16 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Admittedly, his deep ball is excellent with really good placement,

 

I don't think it is.  I think the placement on his deep ball is erratic, and it's not so much the overthrows, it's the leaving it inside and short so often that worry me.  So many plays where Brian Thomas had to hold up waiting on the ball or run back toward the field to track the ball.  Those are turnover throws in NFL zones.  So are the floating ducks he throws to the far hash flat.  So are the plays where he takes to long to pull the trigger on crossers and puts it behind.  And so are the plays when he rolls into an occupied flat and has to pick his eyes back up and look for options down field after losing his picture, and nothing is open down the sideline for him.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'm convinced drafting Daniels over Maye is a mistake, and I don't have any interest in rationalizing or normalizing a mistake.  I can't cope with a loss of faith in the team by trying to trick myself.  I'm just going to have to take a step back if/when we do it, and accept that my expectations got too high.  This team is not worth high blood pressure.

I get it, I can be an extremely opinionated person as well. I even agree with you on Maye vs Daniels. But in this case, I don’t think such certainty is healthy or rational. We’ve all completely whiffed and been loud wrong on QB prospects in recent years, including you. 

Edited April 16 by Conn

[HTTRDynasty]

I hope I'm wrong, but this "group outing" seems like such a transparent attempt to see who emerges as the "leader" or "alpha" of the group.  Pretty cringeworthy, IMO, if that's the case.

[Going Commando]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

I hope I'm wrong, but this "group outing" seems like such a transparent attempt to see who emerges as the "leader" or "alpha" of the group.  Pretty cringeworthy, IMO, if that's the case.

 

I don't know what's going on, but I wouldn't read to much into this scheduling crunch.  It could be nothing more than having to work around the schedules of the players themselves.  They are traveling all over to meet with teams right now.

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I hope I'm wrong, but this "group outing" seems like such a transparent attempt to see who emerges as the "leader" or "alpha" of the group.  Pretty cringeworthy, IMO, if that's the case.

Yeah I agree. This group is big on gung ho rah rah rah type stuff. I could see McCarthy really standing out. Possibly Maye as well. Daniels is too shy/introverted for this type of stuff(and there is nothing wrong with that, personally I think they're all good enough leaders and its not really a quantifiable trait for translating to the NFL anyway).

 

They effed up by not bringing in these guys earlier. We're picking 2nd, these guys agents would have prioritized visiting with us over anyone else. And why waste time with Penix jr when there is NO chance we take him? 

 

For other positions sure lump em in together and see. But QBs should get an entire day at your facility dedicated just to them to see if they have it.

 

This is how busts happen.

3 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I don't know what's going on, but I wouldn't read to much into this scheduling crunch.  It could be nothing more than having to work around the schedules of the players themselves.  They are traveling all over to meet with teams right now.

We suffer from decision paralysis and waited too long to schedule these guys. We're picking 2nd, we would have been a priority visit and each QB prospect should have had an entire day dedicated just for them. 

[Ghost of]

23 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I've been rewatching Daniels film. I just...don't see it at all. Almost every throw is to a wide open receiver and mostly on the very first read. There are very few if any down the middle throws into tight windows. He does a good job running around to buy time for someone to get open but how sustainable is that in the NFL? Admittedly, his deep ball is excellent with really good placement, and I could see Daniels to McLaurin lighting it up this year. But the best QBs make their money by consistently hitting the 15-25 yarders down the middle. That is not Daniels's specialty at all. 

 

Again he does have clean footwork and mechanics, and his release is lightning quick which I love, but I don't see a special NFL QB for the next decade. At best I see a flash in the pan before inevitable injury due to body type/play style. I don't see a year in year out perennial Pro Bowl type QB unless we're somehow able to surround him with the same type of talent advantage he had at LSU every year, which is impossible because then after we pay him big bucks the team around him will deteriorate and he has shown no ability to elevate a program.

 

Earlier Conn said he didn't get joy from watching him throw. Watching the game tape, I was struck by how often Kurt was befuddled about why LSU's reads for a certain concept "started in then go out" because Daniels missed a wide open RB available for an easy pass and big play multiple times.  Throughout, Kurt would talk about him running or say he's not sure what they were asking him to do---basically, a lot more questioning than I thought I would see. He didn't fail to point out fast processing but something he noted in this processing talk is you can go through your progressions too fast.  I've now seen multiple breakdowns talk about him pulling down for a run when someone was open and the concept was calling for a read to that guy, or where someone is sort of confused as to what LSU was asking him to do.  

 

If Jaden Daniels didn't run for over 1,000 yards but ran instead for 2-400 yards---he would not be looked at as a top 5 pick. 

 

Ask yourself this: If Maye or McCarthy had 5th years, what would they look like (assume coaching stability for the last 2-3)?

[illone]

I have exactly zero concern about the process, timing, etc. 

 

300+ (non QB) players that need to be evaluated. 
 

Let that sink in for a moment. 
 

 

 

[fanman8825]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'm convinced drafting Daniels over Maye is a mistake, and I don't have any interest in rationalizing or normalizing a mistake.  I can't cope with a loss of faith in the team by trying to trick myself.  I'm just going to have to take a step back if/when we do it, and accept that my expectations got too high.  This team is not worth high blood pressure.

That is how I feel. Going to be very upset if Daniels is the pick. Don’t like his style of play challenging defenders and getting knocked on his back 10 yards backwards. He is not going to last into his thirties with his body type not avoiding contact.
We have a chance to draft a big guy with a cannon of a arm who can throw into tight windows. Has enough athletic ability to make off schedule throws and is younger than Daniels. JD was not as good as Maye at 21. 
Really surprised Peters would consider taking JD given the risk factor. Sure Maye could get hurt but he has a better chance to play 12-14 yds than Daniels.

 

[Going Commando]

19 minutes ago, Conn said:

I get it, I can be an extremely opinionated person as well. I even agree with you on Maye vs Daniels. But in this case, I don’t think such certainty is healthy or rational. We’ve all completely whiffed and been loud wrong on QB prospects in recent years, including you. 

 

My friend, the healthy and rational choice was to cut bait on this franchise a long time ago.  And even if our team was good and not terrible, what we've been doing here for the past 20 years is participating in the dude version of fangirl chat boards for Ru Paul's Drag Race.  It's fundamentally irrational and unhealthy.

 

What's the response going to be from everyone if we draft Jayden and he ends up being the next Justin Fields, and Drake Maye ends up being the next Josh Allen?

[Fred Jones]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

 

What's the response going to be from everyone if we draft Jayden and he ends up being the next Justin Fields, and Drake Maye ends up being the next Josh Allen?

The sufferring continues.

 

But, we would just have to be more patient while sufferring.

[seantaylor=god]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

What's the response going to be from everyone if we draft Jayden and he ends up being the next Justin Fields, and Drake Maye ends up being the next Josh Allen?

I’ll be apoplectic. The same way I would feel if we took Maye and he turned into bad Carson Wentz, or a less athletic, more inconsistent Trevor Lawrence and Jayden Daniels ends up being Joe Burrow with wheels.

 

I guess we will just have to see how it goes. Both could fail miserably.

[Skinsinparadise]

This is one of the biggest decisions in franchise history IMO.  New start, new beginnings -- trying to revitalize a dying fan base.  Taking a QB in a stacked QB draft.

 

Ron's incompetence happened at the perfect time.  We finally got lucky and Dan is gone.  We got a new owner who is patient and is sparing no expense to help them team get an edge.  We got a GM who many say was the best talent evaluator available.  I've heard that Quinn is already pulling 16 hour days and is at the building at 5 am, forgot which beat guy said that but I recall one did.  They had a really good FA season.   They are getting praised around the league for having their act together.

 

It's all a novel ride.

 

So why assume Peters is going to blow this?  It's always possible.  But why dwell on it?  The fact that he wants to leave no stone unturned is a good thing -- not a bad thing.  The fact that we don't know is a good thing -- not a bad thing.

 

My 2 cents is enjoy the process for next 9 days or so.  We are picking #2 we have 6 top 100 picks -- new era, new day run by an a group of people who come off super smart and forward thinking.

 

Maybe they take your favorite QB in the draft, maybe they don't.  But IMO why fret about them not doing it.  For example, if I was 100% sure that I knew the right way to play QB in this draft, I'd have zero fear it wouldn't happen.  

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

What's the response going to be from everyone if we draft Jayden and he ends up being the next Justin Fields, and Drake Maye ends up being the next Josh Allen?

 

It would suck.

 

Likewise it would suck if Maye is the next Wentz or Bortles and Daniels is the next Lamar.

 

I see some make the point that its only OK if they took Maye and he fails, that's fine -- there is no wrong answer with Maye sink or swim.   Daniels succeeding and Maye failing is fine.

 

It's not fine for me either way.  No double standard for me on this. 

 

@Conn nailed it for me.  Like him, like you, I prefer Maye.  But I agree with him that its unhealthy to have that level of certainty about what the right and wrong move is.  This is picking QB -- the same spot that so many fail at, including anyone here.  It's more than fine to have a preference but this isn't an absolute certainty game.   Not even close.

 

And heck if I genuinely believed it was that level ridiculous as to the choice being that level clear, I'd have zero fear that they aren't take Maye.  Zero.  

Edited April 16 by Skinsinparadise

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know the trade back is what you've been on and off pining for -- for a long time.

 

But the impression i get is the opposite.  There is so much mixed takes from NFL insiders as to what happens at #2.  But the one point they almost all rally and converge on is that Washington is sticking at #2.  If you were a Patriots fan though this would be a dream period for you, a lot of smoke that they might trade back.

 

I don't get the vibe that Peters wants to dabble in the land of mediocrity-QB purgatroy with a trade back.  Feels very much like they are either torn between 2 QBs and want to dissect every detail or are in the lets make sure our preference is the right guy by diving into that player right to the end.

I’d put pretty good money on us sticking at 2 (and I’m quite cautious).  Bringing in Penix though gives me the feeling Peters is putting bait in the water to see what kind of bites he gets.  I think we can all agree Penix isn’t going to be the pick at 2 and top 30 visits are valuable.

IMO, basically a zero percent chance he’d move back to 11, but if Minny can get up to 4 or 5?  Who knows (I’d still doubt it though).

[Going Commando]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So why assume Peters is going to blow this? 

 

We'll see what happens on draft night, maybe he takes the QB that I think is the no-brainer choice.  But why assume that he's not going to blow this?  To me, blind faith in this franchise is way more ridiculous than trusting your own eyes.

 

At the end of the day, we have no power to influence outcomes.  I do understand the coping technique of placing blind faith in whoever seems to have power in the moment, it's just something I'm unwilling to do any more.  That's not fun to me.

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And heck if I genuinely believed it was that level ridiculous as to the choice being that level clear, I'd have zero fear that they aren't take Maye.  Zero. 

 

Why?  Where does your rock solid confidence in this team's ability to get it right come from?