The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Rolo Tomasie]

Just now, MartinC said:

An interesting way to look at this is how would you feel if the guy you don’t want us to draft fell and was picked by the Giants. 
 

Does Daniel’s or Maye being a Giant worry you? It would worry me - which tells what most already know these are two blue chip prospects and we are lucky to be in a position to make a choice.

If we get Daniels and the G-men get Maye, yeah I would be UNhappy. I would just really have to hope that I'm wrong, which I certainly have been before. 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

9 hours ago, bh32 said:

Peters will look bad if he selects Daniels over Maye and Daniels is a bust and Maye turns out to be a franchise QB..analytics say Daniels will be a bust

 

You could argue he'll look bad if that's swapped, too. Picking good quarterbacks is hard.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, MartinC said:

An interesting way to look at this is how would you feel if the guy you don’t want us to draft fell and was picked by the Giants. 
 

Does Daniel’s or Maye being a Giant worry you? It would worry me - which tells what most already know these are two blue chip prospects and we are lucky to be in a position to make a choice.

 

Exactly.  I'd hate it.  

 

It's no accident that we keep hearing about teams wanting to jockey up the draft for Maye or Daniels depending on the team.  We are lucky to be picking #2 in this draft.

 

As for what happens at #2.  I got no clue.  i am not discounting some of the reports about leanings.  But I also believe that they are digesting this to the end.  Judging purely by rumors I get the vibe that its close between the two.

 

McCarthy feels more like the wildcard, so much mixed reports about him but i strongly suspect he won't be the guy at #2.

Edited April 10 by Skinsinparadise

[tmandoug1]

13 minutes ago, WashingtonRedWolves said:

Daniels after a bad quarter: He’s a bust

Maye after a bad month: We just need to be patient

No matter who we choose they get 20 games. Can't remember which coach coined that phrase but it makes sense to me. I believe that should happen with every rookie QB. But instant gratification is the norm these days. Best of luck to whomever the brain trust picks. 

[BMagic]

8 minutes ago, MartinC said:

An interesting way to look at this is how would you feel if the guy you don’t want us to draft fell and was picked by the Giants. 
 

Does Daniel’s or Maye being a Giant worry you? It would worry me - which tells what most already know these are two blue chip prospects and we are lucky to be in a position to make a choice.

 

Letting Daboll get his hands on Maye after his work with Josh Allen would be a disaster. They already face a player with a similar style to Daniels in Jalen Hurts.

 

Against Daniels, you'd look to play contain with the DEs/LBs and Cover 6. Force him into working the Intermediate MOF and away from the boundary throws, which isn't something he had to do a ton of with Nabers/Thomas Jr.

[redskinss]

4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

An interesting way to look at this is how would you feel if the guy you don’t want us to draft fell and was picked by the Giants. 
 

Does Daniel’s or Maye being a Giant worry you? It would worry me - which tells what most already know these are two blue chip prospects and we are lucky to be in a position to make a choice.

 

I wouldn't want them to get either but I'd be more concerned with maye than daniels.

 

I think daniels could be a nightmare to deal with in the short term but as with all running quarterbacks, even the ones that hit their ceilings they usually have much shorter windows. 

 

That's the deciding factor for me, is that best case scenarios using law of average puts Daniels as an elite threat until he's 30ish which is 6 years or so

 

Best case for maye he's an elite threat until his mid to late 30's which is 15 plus years.

 

 

[MartinC]

3 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

No matter who we choose they get 20 games. Can't remember which coach coined that phrase but it makes sense to me. I believe that should happen with every rookie QB. But instant gratification is the norm these days. Best of luck to whomever the brain trust picks. 

After 20 games Peyton Manning had 5 wins and had thrown 34 interceptions.

2 minutes ago, BMagic said:

 

Letting Daboll get his hands on Maye after his work with Josh Allen would be a disaster. They already face a player with a similar style to Daniels in Jalen Hurts.

 

Against Daniels, you'd look to play contain with the DEs/LBs and Cover 6. Force him into working the Intermediate MOF and away from the boundary throws, which isn't something he had to do a ton of with Nabers/Thomas Jr.

Not quite sure why Cover 6 would be the silver bullet against Daniel’s. Quarter quarter/half versus thirds doesn’t seem to me to be a difference maker against him. I do agree teams will make him prove he can beat them between the numbers. 

[Warhead36]

I have no fear of anyone if we get Maye, because he represents a home run swing and if he hits, we're gonna be contending for the next decade regardless. If he misses, then we're back to where we are right now anyway in a couple of years and it makes no difference who anyone else has.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

I don't buy this at all.  And the example you gave about Gruden sending them the playbook in advance to see how much they'd learn from it is a test of work ethic much more so than processing.  The aspect of information processing that is most relevant to QB success is what happens on the field.  Being able to read coverages and pressures and make decisions. You can see how a quarterback does this. You can tell when he's not reading pressure well. You can tell when he's getting lost on the coverages. You can tell when he's seeing things too narrow and too slow. You can tell when he's late. You can tell when he's not anticipating his windows. I didn't think these issues were even hard to pick up on. I am an idiot layman and I can see them in Jayden. I could see them with Fields and Howell too and mentioned the vision and processing being issues with them over and over again during their draft threads. I don't understand how supposed experts keep missing this, it is there in the film, and it is so important that it's what everyone should be looking for. Reading and instincts/anticipation are basically one half of the equation (the other being able to manage adversity and create) that separates the great players from the regular ones at all positions, but especially at QB where they make reads every play. But instead apparently all of these pros are stuck looking at a player's ****ing feet and never get past that.  Nevermind that Allen and Mahomes back foot 40% of their passes and dirt a bunch of throws every game in the middle of genius playmaking that constitutes the most valuable individual play in the league every season.

 

 

Gruden's point also seemed to center on their memory and understanding of coverages by inserting purposely flaws into the playbook.

 

Arians points out that the NFL game is different from college.  Everything happens fast and much of it is different from college.  Your ability to see the field and process everythng.

 

A. Presnap

B. Postsnap

C. Adjust protections

 

And you need to do it all in three seconds give or take.  And in his mind, he doesn't see that to a tee watching college QBs as to the transition to the NFL.  But he can see it in a snap once they play in the NFL. And yeah work ethic is part of it, he talks about that too.  You watch the opposing defense to death to the extent that it helps you see things in a snao when it unfolds on game day.  But you can work like crazy and still not have the field vision.  But you need both.

 

As for Daniels, my point wasn't that his field processing is good.  I didn't reference him at all on that front.  Was purely talking about the theory.  But as to Daniels, for him not throwing with anticipation, I've mentioned it forever, so no argument from me. 

 

Jay speaking about it in Keim yesterday thinks that part of that is that's how the offense was designed.  That was interesting for me to hear, I didn't think any offenses aren't predicated as to throwing with anticipation. Weird hearing it from Jay of all people because his WCO offenses are about throwing with anticipation and I recall leaks back in the day that he was frustrated with RG3 for struggiling with this.  And some extent Alex Smith too. 

 

Back to Daniels. It's something he would have to evolve as a passer. Can he do it?  i got no idea.  

Edited April 10 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

You were somewhat high on Daniels months back, unless am misreading you, you've soured on him.  If your point is his running is "meh" or overrated, but not sure if that's your point, I'd be down on him, too.

 

I think his running is overrated as an NFL weapon in two respects, 1 - all QB running is overrated as an NFL weapon.  Justin Fields ran for 1100 yards and it wasn't actually very valuable.  2 - the big middle field runs where Jayden made a ton of hay last season will not translate to the NFL for him.  He does not have the stature for it.  Remember how back in '22 I argued that Sam Howell's running wouldn't translate to the NFL because he was just too slow to run for 800 yards gingerly picking his way up field on RPOs like he did over and over again at UNC.  I was right about that, and it's the same deal for Jayden.  He's not slow like Howell, but he's not strong and he can't read defenses well enough to run through the middle of an NFL field over and over again.

 

I don't think I soured on Jayden that much, just seems that way because he became so wildly overrated over the past four months.  He is still my QB3 but there is a massive cliff between him and Drake Maye.  Maye is a bet I'd be comfortable making in any year.  Jayden is a bet I would never even contemplate making when I can draft Maye.  The situation reminds me a lot of 2021.  A lot of people had Fields over Lawrence during parts of that draft process, and they were dead ass wrong about that.  And then later too many people had Mac Jones over Fields and they were dead ass wrong about that too.  Jayden is better than McCarthy.  Maye is better than Jayden.

 

I like McCarthy better than I liked Mac Jones though.  McCarthy is sharper and has more physical talent than Jones did, he's just got way less than Jayden.  McCarthy is clean, if he can go to a situation like Minnesota with an easy mode offense where all of the creation is being handled by the coach and his playmakers, he'll be good.

[Warhead36]

11 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

I like McCarthy better than I liked Mac Jones though.  McCarthy is sharper and has more physical talent than Jones did, he's just got way less than Jayden.  McCarthy is clean, if he can go to a situation like Minnesota with an easy mode offense where all of the creation is being handled by the coach and his playmakers, he'll be good.

That's how I see him as well. I don't think he's a special elite talent that can elevate a franchise but with good players around him he'll do well. Basically a better version of Brock Purdy. He'd be the perfect fit for Minnesota and I think that's what will end up happening.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I think his running is overrated as an NFL weapon in two respects, 1 - all QB running is overrated as an NFL weapon.  Justin Fields ran for 1100 yards and it wasn't actually very valuable.  2 - the big middle field runs where Jayden made a ton of hay last season will not translate to the NFL for him.  He does not have the stature for it.  Remember how back in '22 I argued that Sam Howell's running wouldn't translate to the NFL because he was just too slow to run for 800 yards gingerly picking his way up field on RPOs like he did over and over again at UNC.  I was right about that, and it's the same deal for Jayden.  He's not slow like Howell, but he's not strong and he can't read defenses well enough to run through the middle of an NFL field over and over again.

 

 

I argued the same thing about Howell.  When I did my write up back then, I flat out said I don't think his running would translate the same way.  And it wasn't hard to miss that he wasn't fast.  Howell would run up the middle and try to bull doze guys in college.  He was actually better as a runner in the NFL than i expected.  5.6 YPC is good.   I think they could have used his legs more, almost no designed runs with him.

 

As for Daniels he looks in the 4'4s for me.  Some say 4 '3's but I don't think so but who knows.  Nonethless, they aren't too many QBs with his speed which is special IMO.   His runs are fairly wide ranging, agree he can't run up the middle like that, but he's no slouch running on the edges.   He has plenty of lateral zig and zag that contribute to some of his bigger runs.

 

But yeah agree about durability.  It's been my concern from the jump about him.

 

13 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I don't think I soured on Jayden that much, just seems that way because he became so wildly overrated over the past four months.  He is still my QB3 but there is a massive cliff between him and Drake Maye.  Maye is a bet I'd be comfortable making in any year.  Jayden is a bet I would never even contemplate making when I can draft Maye. 

 

I am in a similar place in wanting Maye by a good margin.  I think our difference is they are two totally different flavors.   Ice cream or pie versus pie versus pie.  

 

If they want to build an offense around Daniels legs -- touch on the deep ball -- first level throws.  I'd get it.  It's a different dynamic.  

 

13 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

The situation reminds me a lot of 2021.  A lot of people had Fields over Lawrence during parts of that draft process, and they were dead ass wrong about that.  And then later too many people had Mac Jones over Fields and they were dead ass wrong about that too.  Jayden is better than McCarthy.  Maye is better than Jayden.

 

I like McCarthy better than I liked Mac Jones though.  McCarthy is sharper and has more physical talent than Jones did, he's just got way less than Jayden.  McCarthy is clean, if he can go to a situation like Minnesota with an easy mode offense where all of the creation is being handled by the coach and his playmakers, he'll be good.

 

I don't recall a lot of people having Fields over Lawrence. I agree with your order:  1. Maye  2. Daniels.  3. McCarthy

 

Mac Jones to me is more in that Bo Nix mode though Bo has more talent.    McCarthy to me screams Alex Smith. 

Edited April 10 by Skinsinparadise

[Command The 414]

57 minutes ago, MartinC said:

An interesting way to look at this is how would you feel if the guy you don’t want us to draft fell and was picked by the Giants. 
 

Does Daniel’s or Maye being a Giant worry you? It would worry me - which tells what most already know these are two blue chip prospects and we are lucky to be in a position to make a choice.

This is a awesome analogy of the situation and 1 that more then likely has been thought of by many of us fans, but I surely hope not by our FO in AP or DG or Harris and Co.

 

 you can’t make a move worried about another team… I highly doubt when a GM trades a player (great player let’s say) that he’s worried how that player will make that team better, he’s only worried about the players he got back and how they can make them better.

 

So, AP and Co better not be concerned with the would Maye or Daniels on the Giants make them better but be concerned with who will make us better and who under the coaching of Kingsbury and Co will be best suited for us 

 

funny thing is I highly doubt the Giants nor their fans care which 1 we take cause in their eyes which ever 1 falls to them is better then Jones and is/will be a upgrade and was meant to be… 

 

but imho it’s going to be a mute point cause I can’t see the Pats not taking the guy we don’t draft, if anything it looks like JJ McCarthy might be there for them to take 

Edited April 10 by Command The 414

[CommanderInTheRye]

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Been waiting for this one:

 

 

 

 

Here's part of the qb section.

 

Sorry for the small print. If you have eye issues like I do you'll need to click on each individual image and expand it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10 by CommanderInTheRye

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

An interesting way to look at this is how would you feel if the guy you don’t want us to draft fell and was picked by the Giants. 
 

Does Daniel’s or Maye being a Giant worry you? It would worry me - which tells what most already know these are two blue chip prospects and we are lucky to be in a position to make a choice.

 

I don't want them to have either guy. I want them to try the Jones experiment again. Just one more time. He can do it this time. 

[Warhead36]

I mean the Giants can throw anyone at QB and beat us. Ffs they beat us with Tommy effing Devito. Who the Giants end up with is irrelevant to our team building process.

[Llevron]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean the Giants can throw anyone at QB and beat us. Ffs they beat us with Tommy effing Devito. Who the Giants end up with is irrelevant to our team building process.

 

You are correct but we weren't really arguing that. He was just saying it shows how dangerous either prospect has the potential of being, when you wouldn't want your rival to get that person. Thats all. 

[ntotoro]

9 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean the Giants can throw anyone at QB and beat us. Ffs they beat us with Tommy effing Devito. Who the Giants end up with is irrelevant to our team building process.

 

I'm willing to wipe the slate clean from the Del Rivera days. The roster is still a rough construct, but Peters is working what he can. It had no leadership prior, either on the field or the staff.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

2 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

I don't buy this at all.  And the example you gave about Gruden sending them the playbook in advance to see how much they'd learn from it is a test of work ethic much more so than processing.  The aspect of information processing that is most relevant to QB success is what happens on the field.  Being able to read coverages and pressures and make decisions. You can see how a quarterback does this. You can tell when he's not reading pressure well. You can tell when he's getting lost on the coverages. You can tell when he's seeing things too narrow and too slow. You can tell when he's late. You can tell when he's not anticipating his windows. I didn't think these issues were even hard to pick up on. I am an idiot layman and I can see them in Jayden. I could see them with Fields and Howell too and mentioned the vision and processing being issues with them over and over again during their draft threads. I don't understand how supposed experts keep missing this, it is there in the film, and it is so important that it's what everyone should be looking for. Reading and instincts/anticipation are basically one half of the equation (the other being able to manage adversity and create) that separates the great players from the regular ones at all positions, but especially at QB where they make reads every play. But instead apparently all of these pros are stuck looking at a player's ****ing feet and never get past that.  Nevermind that Allen and Mahomes back foot 40% of their passes and dirt a bunch of throws every game in the middle of genius playmaking that constitutes the most valuable individual play in the league every season.

I kinda want us to draft Daniels just to watch your processing speed in real time.

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

We need to be patient - period. We have been waiting for ‘the guy’ for about 30 years. Arguably since Sam Baugh retired.

 

I don't need to do nothing.

[WashingtonRedWolves]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

 

Guess it depends on who's typing. 

 

If it's you it'll clearly be the other way around.

 

Not at all, I like both Maye and Daniels and would be happy with either

[skinsfan66]

2 hours ago, MartinC said:

An interesting way to look at this is how would you feel if the guy you don’t want us to draft fell and was picked by the Giants. 
 

Does Daniel’s or Maye being a Giant worry you? It would worry me - which tells what most already know these are two blue chip prospects and we are lucky to be in a position to make a choice.

Maye would worry me because he is pick 1 for me size, age and upside potential. Would not lose a wink of sleep if Daniels goes to the Giants he is not the type QB I prefer. The Giants loose out on one of the top WR's is a plus, who I fear more and because they have nothing at that spot. Daniels would not have the luxury of his offensive weapons he had at LSU in college. I would rather they take Daniels than McCarthy too, who I like better.  If we draft Daniels, not who I want, Rg3 was not what I wanted either but I have to be all in and support him as the team QB.

Edited April 10 by skinsfan66

[SoCalSkins]

51 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean the Giants can throw anyone at QB and beat us. Ffs they beat us with Tommy effing Devito. Who the Giants end up with is irrelevant to our team building process.

Ideal scenario for me is we draft Maye and the Giants trade up to 3 for Daniels. The 2025 first round pick they give up will be the first overall pick. 
 

They fire Daboll after the season and Bellichick takes over the empty cupboard because it’s the only job he can get.  Daniels can’t handle the hard coaching and is backing up Lamar in 3 years for a 5th rd pick. 

 

All plausible.

[RWJ]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

lol, because the Daniels fantatics have somewhat dissapeared here.  I feel like I've become the defacto Daniels defender here even though I am a Maye guy.  But i am not in the Maye is great Daniels sucks crowd.  It's becoming a joke with the beat guys I noticed about how some love one but dislike the other.

 

"Anayltics" meaning the pressure to sack ratio.  This year it was almost the exact same score as Maye. But over his career its higher.  Maybe that's the be all and end all. Maybe not. If it was just about that stat, judging QBs would be easy.  It's certainly a red flag, I agree.  There was an anayltics dude who talked about it on Standig the other day, some QBs have been fine with that stat, many haven't.  But the dude didn't say he thought Daniels would be a bust, he was high on him.

 

PFF guys are high on Daniels.  I've watched their draft shows for months talking about him.  They are even higher though on Maye.  So my takes dovetail off of the PFF guys pretty much.

 

Daniels is better than Maye on a series of anayltics measures.   Not that it matters though.  The PFF guys have joked in their own draft youtube segments that they thought their metrics can dicipher who would be a good or not good NFL QB but their metrics have failed them on that count, so they are guessing as wildly as anyone else.

 

Some may or may not like Peters.  Some may or may not like Kingsbury or Quinn.  But no one says they are stupid.  So if they end up taking Daniels its not because name that random fan can pick up on one defining stat to make the case, and these guys have no idea.

 

As Jay Gruden said last night and its a variation of Arians has said in this QB book -- tough to judge college QBs from afar.  The key component that you can't judge until they are in the building is their processing skills.  And processing skills is critical to succeed in the NFL. 

 

Hence the idea for these pro vists, etc.  Jay said he'd sent them the playbook in advance and see how much work they'd do to encode it and how well they can explain it, he said he'd often put in a mistake in the book to see if they can spot it.  I gather all these FO-coaches have their tricks of the trade to judge their processing.

 

lol, hearing Jay explain that gives me the vibe that Haskins probably didn't excel in that predraft game considering he and the scouts of the team had a third round grade on him.

 

I'm in on Maye and if not Maye, JJ McCarthy group.  

[DogofWar1]

59 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean the Giants can throw anyone at QB and beat us. Ffs they beat us with Tommy effing Devito. Who the Giants end up with is irrelevant to our team building process.

Sure but I'LL  be sad.

[Warhead36]

6 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Ideal scenario for me is we draft Maye and the Giants trade up to 3 for Daniels. The 2025 first round pick they give up will be the first overall pick. 
 

They fire Daboll after the season and Bellichick takes over the empty cupboard because it’s the only job he can get.  Daniels can’t handle the hard coaching and is backing up Lamar in 3 years for a 5th rd pick. 

 

All plausible.

I don't see the Pats moving off 3. 1 2 3 will be Williams - Maye or Daniels - Maye or Daniels.

 

Lets just hope Peters makes the right choice and doesn't fall for the Daniels trap. My fear is him being a 1st time GM he'll succumb to the smoke and bs. It doesn't mean he's a bad GM or anything, because even the best GMs eff up QB, but itd still be a big disappointment.