The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

 

 

[Warhead36]

Or its just a sales tactic to get people to invest in season tickets.

 

I don't think Harris is a Snyder type that will force Howell on his new regime. The new GM/HC will make the call regarding Howell.

[88Comrade2000]

9 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Or its just a sales tactic to get people to invest in season tickets.

 

I don't think Harris is a Snyder type that will force Howell on his new regime. The new GM/HC will make the call regarding Howell.

We see how forcing a qb works out.

We will Know the answer for sure in the draft. If one of our first 2 draft picks is QB; then that guy is expected to become the eventual starter. 
 

The GM and coach, who needs to be on the same page; will make the decision on qb. We have to trust whatever decision they make.  Yeah, they could completely botch the decision but it’s their right to make the decision and then live with that decision.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I think the latest pick six was on play calling/scheme, because the Dolphins LB basically said he saw Wylie move to pass protect a screen instantly and knew where the ball was going to be.  I wonder how many of his turnovers are on the scheme and compared to bad decisions/throws by Howell.

This is what I mean when I say things are so bad offensively that it’s hard for me to judge Howell individually.  14 games in and all I can really say about him is that he’s tough as nails and has the ability to make all the throws.  But I’m not sure of his ability to process and make the right decisions, because too often it doesn’t look like there is a good decision to be made, as the play is dead pre-snap.  If you look at this offenses best plays for at least a month now- it’s all off schedule.  Typically when an offense is this bad, there’s plenty of evidence that it doesn’t have to be that bad.  Not the case here.

Edited December 7, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

We see how forcing a qb works out.

We will Know the answer for sure in the draft. If one of our first 2 draft picks is QB; then that guy is expected to become the eventual starter. 
 

The GM and coach, who needs to be on the same page; will make the decision on qb. We have to trust whatever decision they make.  Yeah, they could completely botch the decision but it’s their right to make the decision and then live with that decision.

 

I would also expect them to move Sam if they decide to go QB. Keeping him in house creates an instant QB controversy and it's unneeded drama. I really like Sam and think he can develop vbut if they go another way I will not be mad at it. Just do what you are gonig to do with conviction and a plan to support it. 

 

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This is what I mean when I say things are so bad offensively that it’s hard for me to judge Howell individually.  14 games in and all I can really say about him is that he’s tough as nails and has the ability to make all the throws.  But I’m not sure of his ability to process and make the right decisions, because too often it doesn’t look like there is a good decision to be made, as the play is dead pre-snap.  If you look at this offenses best plays for at least a month now- it’s all off schedule.  Typically when an offense is this bad, there’s plenty of evidence that it doesn’t have to be that bad.  Not the case here.

 

For this is a real positive for Sam. All QBs can produce when given a nice clean pocket. The true difference making is what happens when it breaks down. Sam is very at creating while running for his life. He has spent the better part of 2 of the last 3 seasons doing so gonig all the way back to his last season at NC. His decision making while under duress has mostly been pretty good. Yea, he has some real blunders. But that's expected. At least he is not shy and shakes off bad plays. 

 

Still, if they draft his replacement I will understand. It will be an intersted decision. Will define them (GM/HC) right from the start. 

[clskinsfan]

2 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

 

I like Howell. But the FO and Coaches have to tie their future to him. He is the only thing that has any chance of saving their jobs. Its not gonna work imo. But nice try regardless. 

 

As far as future options at the position. That will be decided by the new staff. As it should be. 

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I like Howell. But the FO and Coaches have to tie their future to him. He is the only thing that has any chance of saving their jobs. Its not gonna work imo. But nice try regardless. 

 

As far as future options at the position. That will be decided by the new staff. As it should be. 

 

For sure. As people who cover the team have said, Rivera and the FO have tried to make most of their argument and or legacy centered around Howell.  It would be like saying privately people in that building think that Hurney, Mayhew and Ron have done a terrific job this season considering circumstance. 

 

I like Howell.  I am not married to him being the guy next season though.  And what Ron and the FO thinks of Howell to me is comedy because it means nothing and they are beyond transparent not just on this issue but everything.  Ron has not hid his telegraphing that he wants this season and his legacy hinged on Howell.  If Howell isn't the guy -- it would make the season and his legacy come off as a bigger train wreck than it already is.

 

I've heard every beat reporter say they expect the door on QB not to be closed this draft.  But they don't know either.  It's all of course dependant on the new GM. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

We see how forcing a qb works out.

We will Know the answer for sure in the draft. If one of our first 2 draft picks is QB; then that guy is expected to become the eventual starter. 
 

The GM and coach, who needs to be on the same page; will make the decision on qb. We have to trust whatever decision they make.  Yeah, they could completely botch the decision but it’s their right to make the decision and then live with that decision.

If we dont take a QB in the first round I dont see a scenario we take one in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. 

 

New GM has to evaluate Sam versus the top available QBs in the draft. If he thinks there is a guy who we can get in the top 5 who he believes is a much better long term bet than Sam he pulls that trigger. If he doesn't see that guy, or his evaluation of Sam is HE could be that guy we use our first four picks to put more talent around Sam and give him at least 24 to show development with (hopefully) much better coaching.

 

If we dont see a guy at the top using a 2nd round pick on a QB just stops us giving more support to Howell - makes no sense IMO.

[philibusters]

3 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I think the latest pick six was on play calling/scheme, because the Dolphins LB basically said he saw Wylie move to pass protect a screen instantly and knew where the ball was going to be.  I wonder how many of his turnovers are on the scheme and compared to bad decisions/throws by Howell.

 

That could be true for almost every screen though.  The O-Line has to give it away to get to the second level.  I don't think it was the play designed, I think it was more we needed to check out of the play given the defensive alignment of Miami. 

[MartinC]

16 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

That could be true for almost every screen though.  The O-Line has to give it away to get to the second level.  I don't think it was the play designed, I think it was more we needed to check out of the play given the defensive alignment of Miami. 

 

I think Wylie has to get out of his stance and cut the DE.

 

But then Sam has to see color flash when he starts to throw and throw the ball over everyones head into the stand.

[Conn]

38 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

That could be true for almost every screen though.  The O-Line has to give it away to get to the second level.  I don't think it was the play designed, I think it was more we needed to check out of the play given the defensive alignment of Miami. 

The LB straight up said that they spotted this exact play as a tendency in that down & distance from that formation with that personnel. So right from the snap he knew to jump it and Wylie confirmed his suspicions, easy TD. If you aren’t that predictable that play doesn’t get jumped like that. Wylie was part of it, but EB himself was the bigger part of it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Logan and Craig Hoffman talk about Bieneimy

 

It's funny, I know Logan is in a pickle because he works for the team.  So he goes he likes Bieniemy but....

 

He doesn't have Mahomes back there and he needs to adjust the offense accordingly

 

The offense doesn't account for their personnel 

 

The offense doesn't account for the opposition

 

The offense doesn't really adjust

 

The offense hasn't evolved

 

They run what they want to run regardless of the opponent. 

 

Logan has gone on in multiple podcasts about how opposing offenses account for their personnel, their opponent's strengths and weaknesses and scheme it up in ways he wishes this team would.  Hoffman goes this team simply runs what they run regardless of who they play against and it works better against bad defenses but not so much versus good defenses.  

 

On a previous podcast, Logan said opposing defenses right now have a really good beat on this offense and how to stop it.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Logan and Craig Hoffman talk about Bieneimy

 

It's funny, I know Logan is in a pickle because he works for the team.  So he goes he likes Bieniemy but....

 

He doesn't have Mahomes back there and he needs to adjust the offense accordingly

 

The offense doesn't account their personnel 

 

The offense doesn't account the opposition

 

The offense doesn't really adjust

 

The offense hasn't evolved

 

They run what they want to run regardless of the opponent. 

 

Logan has gone on in multiple podcasts about how opposing offenses account for their personnel, their opponent's strengths and weaknesses and scheme it up in ways he wishes this team would.  Hoffman goes this team simply runs what they run regardless of who they play against and it works better against bad defenses but not so much versus good defenses.  

 

Football is essentially a game of matchups. If you are not game planning to identify favorable matchups - and that will obviously vary opponent to opponent - and ways to create an exploit them then I don't know what coaches are doing with their time.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, MartinC said:

 

Football is essentially a game of matchups. If you are not game planning to identify favorable matchups - and that will obviously vary opponent to opponent - and ways to create an exploit them then I don't know what coaches are doing with their time.

 

Not sure.  Sounds like Bieniemy has his share of HC duties on this plate.  I mentioned this in another thread that Fowler-Keim in a podcast they just did said Bieniemy has been the defacto HC this year.

[MartinC]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Not sure.  Sounds like Bieniemy has his share of HC duties on this plate.  I mentioned this in another thread that Fowler-Keim in a podcast they just did said Bieniemy has been the defacto HC this year.

There are other offensive coaches - I can’t believe there is no opponent specific game planning going on. There has to be.

[Llevron]

This right here is how you know the offense is just not functioning well and its not all the players. To me this speaks to play calling more than any other of these stats we have seen. If we call so many plays that are 'perfectly' covered, we are not calling good plays. As many of you have been saying all season. The ****s not working, and hes not changing it. He is clearly bad at this. 

 

 

 

 

Though I have seen some other things today that point to the players indeed being soft as baby ****, that doesn't change the fact that the plays called are just not good. I don't really think its arguable anymore. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

Yeah its obvious our offensive scheme is trash. We don't maximize our best players or strategize/gameplan to get them the ball in optimal situations.

 

Can't believe EB is actually WORSE than Scott Turner. How the heck do we downgrade from that garbage...

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, MartinC said:

There are other offensive coaches - I can’t believe there is no opponent specific game planning going on. There has to be.

 

I am sure.  I doubt Paulsen and Hoffman meant to be that literal.  But if Paulsen is right, this is more of a we do this and try to stop us offense than one tailored to the opponent's weakness.  

 

Even superfically, that general approach is hard to miss.  I recall the NY Giants were struggiling mightly against the run.  Their calling card was Martindale and his blitzes.  Yet, our game plan was to throw the ball like mad.

 

Keim in a more subtle way has referenced how other offenses come off more thoughtful as to exploting their own personell and the opponent's weakesses.

 

I've not had the time to rewatch any of these games to land on my own opinion. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This is what I mean when I say things are so bad offensively that it’s hard for me to judge Howell individually.  14 games in and all I can really say about him is that he’s tough as nails and has the ability to make all the throws.  But I’m not sure of his ability to process and make the right decisions, because too often it doesn’t look like there is a good decision to be made, as the play is dead pre-snap.  If you look at this offenses best plays for at least a month now- it’s all off schedule.  Typically when an offense is this bad, there’s plenty of evidence that it doesn’t have to be that bad.  Not the case here.

True enough, and this kind of gets at a point I made earlier - I don’t think I’ve seen anything from Howell that makes me think he cannot be a high end/franchise qb.  That’s not even remotely a guarantee he gets to that point of course.

 

This touches on something else I was thinking about.  If a GM/HC come in and think Howell can give them a baseline of play to produce wins, while improving the roster, that’s pretty attractive… even if they’re not sure Sam’s a guy that can get them deep into the playoffs.  In effect, Sam can buy them some time.  They can build a better supporting cast for the next qb, stockpile picks to better enable them to find that guy in the next couple years, and who knows… maybe Howell pans out/exceeds their expectations.

The alternative - drafting a guy early this year - brings pretty significant risk.  They’d need that guy to show he’s the real deal in the next 2 years.  And if he doesn’t, they’re likely going into year 3 needing to 1) still find their answer at qb, and 2) they might not be afforded 2 years with that new guy if the wins aren’t coming.  And they’ve just (presumably/likely) used two 1st round picks (or more) on qb in 3 years, limiting their opportunities to land high end players at other positions.

 

Now, to SIP’s point, I don’t really want the new FO to just play it safe.  If they don’t believe in Howell, but do believe in Daniels (or whoever), then go for it.  I certainly wouldn’t want them to avoid Daniels (or whoever) simply because they’re afraid it might bite them in the long run if they’re wrong.

But if they think it’s more important to improve the roster - to see how Howell performs with a better supporting cast, and/or to prepare for when they do get their guy, I can understand it for sure.  And frankly, I’d like the new FO to be afforded some time, and since the book’s still out on Howell, I don’t see rolling with him as punting a season… Of course, if Howell fails and a guy that could have drafted succeeds in a big way, that’s a fairly significant black mark.  Tricky spot for sure.

 

 

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah its obvious our offensive scheme is trash. We don't maximize our best players or strategize/gameplan to get them the ball in optimal situations.

 

Can't believe EB is actually WORSE than Scott Turner. How the heck do we downgrade from that garbage...

I can’t help but feeling a pretty big part of this has to be the oline and an inability to hold the ball for longer routes.  Of course, those routes are more suited to Terry and Jahan than the shorter routes you have to (generally) win quickly on.  Turner faced some similar issues, starting pass heavy and then having to switch to heavy running due (at least in large part) to protection issues.  EB ain’t making that change really though.

 

Not absolving EB, just think this oline was gonna make life hard on him regardless.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

Though I have seen some other things today that point to the players indeed being soft as baby ****, that doesn't change the fact that the plays called are just not good. I don't really think its arguable anymore. 

I didn’t love the player quotes.  Wasn’t really a good look for them.  But, they probably don’t **** about that stuff if it’s paying off.  

 

Another thing, I saw a quote about Bienemy being there til midnight and how that’s not sustainable for the staff.  Not a great look for whoever said that either.

 

However, that’s a worse look for EB.  How are you working 18 hour days, and it looks like you worked 18 minutes every Sunday?

 

A lot of time and energy went into the Titanic.

[Skinsinparadise]

this is another topic from Paulsen-Hoffman the lack of motion.  they've talked about how motion for various reasons made some of their opponents harder to defend

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I didn’t love the player quotes.  Wasn’t really a good look for them.  But, they probably don’t **** about that stuff if it’s paying off.  

 

Another thing, I saw a quote about Bienemy being there til midnight and how that’s not sustainable for the staff.  Not a great look for whoever said that either.

 

However, that’s a worse look for EB.  How are you working 18 hour days, and it looks like you worked 18 minutes every Sunday?

 

A lot of time and energy went into the Titanic.

 

As you referecned it felt like Rivera put his stamp on much of that article.  Comes off like Keim tipped Rivera off that they are doing one abut how the season went off the rails and Rivera decided to share what he could to make himself look as good as possible.  The Bieineimy is putting in the time felt like a Rivera sell.   Rivera seemed to hitch the whole offseason to Bieniemy and Howell.

 

If I had to wager a bet I think Rivera drew it up this way.  Maybe Harris fires him no matter what.  He clearly didn't have too much confidence that they'd have a big season but I bet the 8-8-1 reference from Ron wasn't an accident when saying sending me my SB ring after the 8-8-1 2023 season.

 

A. Defense is great

B.  Howell shows enough to be the future franchise QB

C. Ron finds his successor in Bieniemy.

 

So he leaves with finding the team their QB, its his roster and his assistant coach as the next HC -- so Rivera's stamp is all over the team.  I don't think he expected that the defense would suck, Bieniemy doesn't look like the successor and he's poised to have one of the worst seasons in franchise history.  The only vesitige left for him is Howell might be a franchise QB.

 

But imagine if this roster is tore down some more.  Most if not all of his coaches and FO are canned.  And they go for a new Qb?  It would be a total repudiation of his regime.  I bet that's shocking to him.  There is a better chance that his regime goes down as a bit of a punchline let alone a regime that set up the team for success.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Logan and Craig Hoffman talk about Bieneimy

 

It's funny, I know Logan is in a pickle because he works for the team.  So he goes he likes Bieniemy but....

 

He doesn't have Mahomes back there and he needs to adjust the offense accordingly

 

The offense doesn't account for their personnel 

 

The offense doesn't account for the opposition

 

The offense doesn't really adjust

 

The offense hasn't evolved

 

They run what they want to run regardless of the opponent. 

 

Logan has gone on in multiple podcasts about how opposing offenses account for their personnel, their opponent's strengths and weaknesses and scheme it up in ways he wishes this team would.  Hoffman goes this team simply runs what they run regardless of who they play against and it works better against bad defenses but not so much versus good defenses.  

 

On a previous podcast, Logan said opposing defenses right now have a really good beat on this offense and how to stop it.

These are all reasons why I hard time with EB supporters and Sam haters. Well that along with the OL EB thought would be good with his tweaks hasn't quiet worked out

[philibusters]

24 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

this is another topic from Paulsen-Hoffman the lack of motion.  they've talked about how motion for various reasons made some of their opponents harder to defend

 

 

 

So I didn't listen to the latest Paulsen-Hoffman episode, but Keim had Paulsen on  his podcast a month, maybe a month a half ago and they discussed.   Paulsen said to the extent there is a downside, it changes the reads for the QB.  If a WR on one side then he is on the other, it does change the reads and leverages of the play and maybe you don't want to overwhlem a first year starter.  But at the time I don't think he fully agreed with not using more motion, but Keim explicitly asked him what the downsides are and he said the downsides is it puts more on the QB's plates because he has know his reads if the WR is here and a different set of reads and leverages if the WR is there.