The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Since we’re having conversations about stuff that probably won’t happen…

 

If the Chargers call us and say, “We want your first and McLaurin and we’ll give you Herbert and our second…”

 

Who says no?

Not me.
 

I’d say yes. And I’m not as high on Herbert as others. 

[Going Commando]

11 hours ago, KDawg said:

Can you tell me why Drake Maye is a better prospect than Howell?

 

He's got better instincts, he's more creative, he sees the field way better, he has a far better feel for the pocket, he's a better athlete, he's way bigger, and he has a better arm.

 

Maye plays like the NFL version of Josh Allen, and his upside is in that world.  Howell is a good prospect, but Maye is a great one.

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

He's got better instincts, he's more creative, he sees the field way better, he has a far better feel for the pocket, he's a better athlete, he's way bigger, and he has a better arm.

 

Maye plays like the NFL version of Josh Allen, and his upside is in that world.  Howell is a good prospect, but Maye is a great one.

I disagree with your assessment aside from size and athleticism. I think the arms are close, not sold on his field vision or pocket presence. 
 

He is a bigger Sam Howell in my eyes.

[Going Commando]

21 hours ago, MartinC said:

I still think most likely outcome is we draft a LT and Sam gets another year to show he’s the long term guy behind a better line and with better coaching. 

 

Granting that it's hard to guess what will happen before we know where we will draft and who will run the show, if we pick top three or four, then it's time to think big.  To me, expecting the next regime to punt on QB with a top pick in a special QB class in order to mess around with the previous regime's late round project QB and kick off the new era by building around a damn left tackle would be the business as usual move.  If Josh Harris is the shark that everyone thinks he is, then he's not going to do that.

 

If we finish at the back of the top ten and aren't in range of the good QBs, then what can you do?  Barring a trade up, you have to take what you can get and hope Howell gets good or that another crack at QB comes your way I guess.

 

The next few months will be era defining for us.  Either we win some games and get passive in the draft and probably never make the leap on another short lived GM-HC cycle, or we lose out and make a move that could be genuinely transformative by getting one of these QBs.

 

[MartinC]

14 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Granting that it's hard to guess what will happen before we know where we will draft and who will run the show, if we pick top three or four, then it's time to think big.  To me, expecting the next regime to punt on QB with a top pick in a special QB class in order to mess around with the previous regime's late round project QB and kick off the new era by building around a damn left tackle would be the business as usual move.  If Josh Harris is the shark that everyone thinks he is, then he's not going to do that.

 

If we finish at the back of the top ten and aren't in range of the good QBs, then what can you do?  Barring a trade up, you have to take what you can get and hope Howell gets good or that another crack at QB comes your way I guess.

 

The next few months will be era defining for us.  Either we win some games and get passive in the draft and probably never make the leap on another short lived GM-HC cycle, or we lose out and make a move that could be genuinely transformative by getting one of these QBs.

 

I’m thinking LT on the assumption the top two QB prospects (Williams and Mayes) are gone with the first two picks. Then it comes down to how a new GM views Howell versus Daniel’s. 
 

I worry about his size and how he will translate to the NFL.
 

I think we go LT assuming we are picking 4 and two QBs and Harrison go 1,2,3. I don’t see a trade up into the top 2 being likely because I don’t think those teams will want to trade out. 

 

If we end up picking #3 and one of Williams and Mayes falls if the GM believes his ceiling his higher than Howell pull the trigger.

[method man]

4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I’m thinking LT on the assumption the top two QB prospects (Williams and Mayes) are gone with the first two picks. Then it comes down to how a new GM views Howell versus Daniel’s. 
 

I worry about his size and how he will translate to the NFL.
 

I think we go LT assuming we are picking 4 and two QBs and Harrison go 1,2,3. I don’t see a trade up into the top 2 being likely because I don’t think those teams will want to trade out. 

 

If we end up picking #3 and one of Williams and Mayes falls if the GM believes his ceiling his higher than Howell pull the trigger.

In your scenario, I would absolutely be pissed of they didn’t trade the pick because Fashanu is not worth the haul Daniels would bring

[MartinC]

5 minutes ago, method man said:

In your scenario, I would absolutely be pissed of they didn’t trade the pick because Fashanu is not worth the haul Daniels would bring

You’d certainly listen to offers. But our need a OT is so clear it would need to a compelling offer. Fashanu (and Alt) are plug and play. We could move Leno to RT and come back in the 2nd and get a very good guard.

 

I do agree overall with @Going Commando though that QB evaluation transcends everything. Howell still has a lot to play for these last four games - and he’s not in a great situation to look good with the **** show all around him.

[method man]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

You’d certainly listen to offers. But our need a OT is so clear it would need to a compelling offer. Fashanu (and Alt) are plug and play. We could move Leno to RT and come back in the 2nd and get a very good guard.

 

I do agree overall with @Going Commando though that QB evaluation transcends everything. Howell still has a lot to play for these last four games - and he’s not in a great situation to look good with the **** show all around him.

With 8-9 tackles potentially receiving first round grades, I am confident that at least one guy who can start Day 1 will be there top of 2nd, say someone like a Guyton or Morgan who would go mid 1st in most drafts. 

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I’m thinking LT on the assumption the top two QB prospects (Williams and Mayes) are gone with the first two picks. Then it comes down to how a new GM views Howell versus Daniel’s. 
 

I worry about his size and how he will translate to the NFL.
 

I think we go LT assuming we are picking 4 and two QBs and Harrison go 1,2,3. I don’t see a trade up into the top 2 being likely because I don’t think those teams will want to trade out. 

 

If we end up picking #3 and one of Williams and Mayes falls if the GM believes his ceiling his higher than Howell pull the trigger.

 

We can cut to the chase: the upside on Williams, Maye, and Daniels is way higher than Howell's.  Williams's best case outcome comparison is Mahomes, Maye's is Allen, and Daniels's is Jackson.  They're all probably going to be top five picks in a draft class that is historically strong in the top ten.  Howell was a second round talent who got picked in the fifth round of a bad class.  I think it's good for perspective to step back and understand this in order to see the best path forward for the new regime.

 

If we pick three or four, then this isn't just a normal draft pick.  It's the major asset for Josh Harris's new regime to found their tenure upon.  It's the pick that will define not just their tenure, but the beginning of Harris's era of ownership.  Also, none of Joe Alt or Olu Fashanu or Taliese Fuaga or JC Latham are the fourth best player in this class.  So reaching for one of them with a gift of an elite pick in an elite top ten would be the most disappointing and low upside continuation of our franchise's team building practices that I can think of.

 

I think this franchise is poor.  I think Josh Harris is going to want to get his Joel Embiid so that they can make some money and start transforming the franchise.  I think the only way he can afford to get that, and get it in a near-term window, is to finish top four or better and get one of these QBs on a dirt cheap contract for five years.  I also think he'll be aggressive and not passively play this draft or GM-HC hiring cycle.

[skinsfan66]

35 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Granting that it's hard to guess what will happen before we know where we will draft and who will run the show, if we pick top three or four, then it's time to think big.  To me, expecting the next regime to punt on QB with a top pick in a special QB class in order to mess around with the previous regime's late round project QB and kick off the new era by building around a damn left tackle would be the business as usual move.  If Josh Harris is the shark that everyone thinks he is, then he's not going to do that.

 

If we finish at the back of the top ten and aren't in range of the good QBs, then what can you do?  Barring a trade up, you have to take what you can get and hope Howell gets good or that another crack at QB comes your way I guess.

 

The next few months will be era defining for us.  Either we win some games and get passive in the draft and probably never make the leap on another short lived GM-HC cycle, or we lose out and make a move that could be genuinely transformative by getting one of these QBs.

 

So what are you going to do about the damn OT that you have no chance to get now? Is the new QB going to make it the whole year? Mahomes is the only one I know who can throw it while on the ground. I guess we could blame it on coaching and the QB holding the ball too long, or the PFF no.s say they are good, the QB has a noodle arm or the usual we can get by and draft more D. Top teams have top OL's just saying. It's not a slam dunk to just take the new QB and not think of the whole rebuild. There are options and the new staff has to make the right one and do their homework with everything considered. 

[method man]

3 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

So what are you going to do about the damn OT that you have no chance to get now? Is the new QB going to make it the whole year? Mahomes is the only one I know who can throw it while on the ground. I guess we could blame it on coaching and the QB holding the ball too long, or the PFF no.s say they are good, the QB has a noodle arm or the usual we can get by and draft more D. Top teams have top OL's just saying. It's not a slam dunk to just take the new QB and not think of the whole rebuild. There are options and the new staff has to make the right one and do their homework with everything considered. 

This is a historically deep OT class with 8-9 tackles getting first round consideration. Will be able to get one with our first second

[skinsfan66]

19 minutes ago, method man said:

With 8-9 tackles potentially receiving first round grades, I am confident that at least one guy who can start Day 1 will be there top of 2nd, say someone like a Guyton or Morgan who would go mid 1st in most drafts. 

Tackles go early and bust a lot. While starting day one is one thing put being a improvement is another. I doubt 8/9 Tackles can start as rookies or become quality starters. Just like 6 QB's? have Ist rd. grades but how many will make it. And who is giving the grades which are opinions too. We cannot just predict what comes later and not take a player because of his position. 

[Going Commando]

27 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

So what are you going to do about the damn OT that you have no chance to get now? Is the new QB going to make it the whole year? Mahomes is the only one I know who can throw it while on the ground. I guess we could blame it on coaching and the QB holding the ball too long, or the PFF no.s say they are good, the QB has a noodle arm or the usual we can get by and draft more D. Top teams have top OL's just saying. It's not a slam dunk to just take the new QB and not think of the whole rebuild. There are options and the new staff has to make the right one and do their homework with everything considered. 

 

What I would do is keep Charles Leno.  I'd also look to draft the position later.  Either way, an OT isn't going to make or break my rebuild, but a QB will.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

We can cut to the chase: the upside on Williams, Maye, and Daniels is way higher than Howell's.  Williams's best case outcome comparison is Mahomes, Maye's is Allen, and Daniels's is Jackson.  They're all probably going to be top five picks in a draft class that is historically strong in the top ten.  Howell was a second round talent who got picked in the fifth round of a bad class.  I think it's good for perspective to step back and understand this in order to see the best path forward for the new regime.

 

If we pick three or four, then this isn't just a normal draft pick.  It's the major asset for Josh Harris's new regime to found their tenure upon.  It's the pick that will define not just their tenure, but the beginning of Harris's era of ownership.  Also, none of Joe Alt or Olu Fashanu or Taliese Fuaga or JC Latham are the fourth best player in this class.  So reaching for one of them with a gift of an elite pick in an elite top ten would be the most disappointing and low upside continuation of our franchise's team building practices that I can think of.

 

I think this franchise is poor.  I think Josh Harris is going to want to get his Joel Embiid so that they can make some money and start transforming the franchise.  I think the only way he can afford to get that, and get it in a near-term window, is to finish top four or better and get one of these QBs on a dirt cheap contract for five years.  I also think he'll be aggressive and not passively play this draft or GM-HC hiring cycle.

 

I like Williams - he will go #1 we are not getting him. I’m not as sold on Mayes and Daniel’s as you seem to be. The other guys in the draft have no more upside than Howell for my money.
 

If the new GM is sold on one of them and can get them he should pull the trigger. 

[UK Skins]

Please remind me, is it Mayes or Williams with the crummy attitude problem? Cos I don't want that one, and I'm thinking Daniels will get injured playing for us. I can just see it.

[RWJ]

6 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

Please remind me, is it Mayes or Williams with the crummy attitude problem? Cos I don't want that one, and I'm thinking Daniels will get injured playing for us. I can just see it.

Williams. 

[sjinhan]

2 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Williams. 

and who knows.. if you believe their bluff...  Williams might decide sit out a year if a "crappy" team picks him in the draft.  I guess with amount of hits that Howell is taking this year... Maybe we are on his black list.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

We can cut to the chase: the upside on Williams, Maye, and Daniels is way higher than Howell's.  Williams's best case outcome comparison is Mahomes, Maye's is Allen, and Daniels's is Jackson.  They're all probably going to be top five picks in a draft class that is historically strong in the top ten.  Howell was a second round talent who got picked in the fifth round of a bad class.  I think it's good for perspective to step back and understand this in order to see the best path forward for the new regime.

 

If we pick three or four, then this isn't just a normal draft pick.  It's the major asset for Josh Harris's new regime to found their tenure upon.  It's the pick that will define not just their tenure, but the beginning of Harris's era of ownership.  Also, none of Joe Alt or Olu Fashanu or Taliese Fuaga or JC Latham are the fourth best player in this class.  So reaching for one of them with a gift of an elite pick in an elite top ten would be the most disappointing and low upside continuation of our franchise's team building practices that I can think of.

 

I think this franchise is poor.  I think Josh Harris is going to want to get his Joel Embiid so that they can make some money and start transforming the franchise.  I think the only way he can afford to get that, and get it in a near-term window, is to finish top four or better and get one of these QBs on a dirt cheap contract for five years.  I also think he'll be aggressive and not passively play this draft or GM-HC hiring cycle.

I’m a fan of Howell.  I haven’t seen anything to suggest he cannot get into that tier just below the top qbs.  Setting aside Allen and Mahomes, I think it’s worth noting that some of these other top notch qbs have serious questions - most notably contracts and injuries.  Not to say he will reach that point of course.  It’s especially hard to say/project with so much crap he’s had to deal with.

 

With that said, that’s a very compelling argument you make.

 

Some semi-random, semi-related thoughts that I’ve been thinking about…

 

1.  Shanahan (I think?  SIP’s said it enough I should remember) saying that you never know until you get a guy into the building.  The new FO might not know what exactly they have in Howell, but I feel comfortable at least saying he gets positive marks for work ethic, intelligence, attitude, etc.  I’m not sure if Howell checks all the boxes implied by Shanahan’s quote - like processing speed and ability to read defenses, but he does check a lot of them.

 

2.  Feels like moving Howell if we draft a qb makes the most sense, but then the new FO risks the possibility that Howell goes on to be a more successful qb than the guy they draft.

 

3.  I’m wanting to take the long view.  It shouldn’t be about next year.  And yet, with new ownership, a new regime, and the state of the fanbase and franchise, it sure seems like they need to generate excitement (at the very least show some promise) next year.  I’m fine with moving on from Howell if they draft their guy… I just hope they’re right.

 

4.  I don’t know how excited the fanbase would be, but I think trading back to add a (hopefully) 1st next year would also be a super positive move for a new regime.  Showing savvy and forward (and long term) thinking would be a really nice change.  That’s assuming they have a plan for qb of course, whether that’s belief in Howell, thinking he deserves a shot, or if they see him at minimum as a placeholder (don’t love this last angle as a reason to punt on qb… unless they don’t love the draftable qbs).

 

Gonna be fascinating to see how this plays out

[MartinC]

It’s worth noting that next years QB class is not as highly touted as this year. 

[skinsfan66]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

What I would do is keep Charles Leno.  I'd also look to draft the position later.  Either way, an OT isn't going to make or break my rebuild, but a QB will.

Sorry but if you blow the QB pick it will break your rebuild, is my opinion. I have some proof,  Shuler, Haskins... blew our rebuilds to this day. But then you could sign say another TH to hold down the fort for another 4 years and we could start crying about his noodle arm or the play calls, coach, OL, QB's hold the ball to long, what ever.  I am not saying OT should be the pick, just be openminded on everything and hope for the best. A best friend of a QB is his blind side protector and Leno is not that any more but I would keep him too if, they went OT or QB. My wanted rebuild has all options considered and Howell is in the mix no matter what QB is there before I move on. 

[Ball Security]

Why didn’t Daniels come out last year? 
 

If Howell spent the last two years in college, where would he project to go in this draft?

[zCommander]

24 minutes ago, sjinhan said:

and who knows.. if you believe their bluff...  

 

He actually said it himself that there is no throw that Mahomes makes that he can't make. I highly doubt he is at Mahomes level but he thinks he is. 

 

There is also the possibility that he might not declare because of the team that might be picking him. His father was also vocal about that he doesn't want his son to go to a crappy team. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

He is a bigger Sam Howell in my eyes.

If his diet isn't restricted to chicken nuggets, I'm sold.  

[Conn]

1 hour ago, RWJ said:

Williams. 

Allegedly. 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Ball Security said:

Why didn’t Daniels come out last year? 
 

If Howell spent the last two years in college, where would he project to go in this draft?

Probably UDFA because Maye would have taken his job, but if he came out a year earlier than he did, he was a top 10 pick.

 

QB is such a stupid crap  shoot.