The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I don’t think the narrative on Williams being a diva is crafted by the media.  It’s built off what’s come from his camp and the behaviors/actions he’s exhibited on the field for all to see.  Up until that stuff, he was basically in Andrew Luck status as the unquestioned #1 pick, without any shadow of doubt.  It remains to be seen how much of that is just looking for chinks in his armor or if it’s of legit concern going to the pros.  At the end of the day, I think the only way he doesn’t go #1 is if GM’s poke around and find fire where there’s smoke.  What really matters though is I don’t see anyone capable of drafting him, putting that pick up for trade.

 

 

[PeterMP]

17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

You keep saying I'm ignoring things. I'm not. I know that is your go to argument when it comes to these things. I am putting those things aside because they are things that I feel would be catastrophically stupid at this point. Trading up would be a major blunder... in my opinion.

 

And yes, we have to see where things fall in the draft. But these conversations take place in context. The post you quoted was someone saying those two guys (Maye and Williams) aren;t on the board. Follow along the context and you'll see why I made the post I made.

 

As for your second paragraph: I agree.

 

And your third: No one has said that they are. The conversation is here is centered around, "if you are in position to get an elite prospect, then take them". My argument is: I'm not sure there will be an elite prospect... especially available to us... but maybe at all.

 

Okay.  How about it isn't something you mentioned?

 

I'd be hesitant to move up but sitting here today with 0 details (how far would they have to move up, what would be the cost, and who would they be getting), I can't sit here and say it would be a mistake.

 

If you are in a position to get an elite prospect, then take them.  If there isn't an elite prospect there, then you don't take one.

 

Even assuming we draft 2, Chicago picks 1 and doesn't take a QB, we have our choice between all of the QBs, and the FO decides to pass on a QB and roll with Howell, I'm not going to yell that it's a mistake.  (Depending on who they do pick I might say that pick is mistake.  But If they decide neither of the QBs is elite and they decide to roll with Howell, then I'm going to assume there is something about the QBs in this class that they don't like and that might include things like Williams potentially being a prima donna that won't put in the work.)

Edited December 6, 2023 by PeterMP

[skinsmania123]

If you go and review the history of elite QB's like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and a current player like Pat Mahomes, one thing that is consistent across the board for these 3 QB's was the protection upfront.  In addition to great O lines, Peyton Manning's offenses were loaded with superstars like James (2006), Harrison, Wayne, and Addai (2000) The runs from scrimmage for Addai and James were off the charts because of the lanes their O line provided. The O lines for Manning for most of the years he was there were stellar.  There have been articles written about Brady, saying one of the main reasons he succeeded was due to his stellar O lines.  Pat Mahomes last year said during interviews it was the strength of the O line giving him time and a very good D that made the difference for the team.  I mean they lost Tyreek Hill, a very strong weapon and they still won the SB.  

 I don't see any QB doing well under center for the Commanders based upon its composition. Sam is a very calm guy, and he seems to benefit from a really good mind set, that I am sure his coach father instilled in him.  It is so hard to know who Sam will be.  Terry and Jahan are not elite. We do not have any TE who can get YAC. We need an elite player to pair with Sam IMO.  Like Brady had Gronk.  Mahomes has Kelsey.  Manning had Harrison and Wayne. Terry who is a solid WR, is not elite. Maybe it is the play calling of EB, and the routes but both Terry and Jahan have been disappointments this year.  So what does Sam need? A solid or at least a decent O line that will give him time. That will block efficiently.  And like Mahomes, like Brady, and eventually for Manning, a good Defense. It not even have to be elite. It just has to be solid in coverage. Solid in getting after the QB sometime.  We linebacker issues. We do not have a shutdown corner. It goes on and on.  And it is true that it starts upfront, and they have not played up to their billing.  

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

If you go and review the history of elite QB's like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and a current player like Pat Mahomes, one thing that is consistent across the board for these 3 QB's was the protection upfront.  In addition to great O lines, Peyton Manning's offenses were loaded with superstars like James (2006), Harrison, Wayne, and Addai (2000) The runs from scrimmage for Addai and James were off the charts because of the lanes their O line provided. The O lines for Manning for most of the years he was there were stellar.  There have been articles written about Brady, saying one of the main reasons he succeeded was due to his stellar O lines.  Pat Mahomes last year said during interviews it was the strength of the O line giving him time and a very good D that made the difference for the team.  I mean they lost Tyreek Hill, a very strong weapon and they still won the SB.  

 I don't see any QB doing well under center for the Commanders based upon its composition. Sam is a very calm guy, and he seems to benefit from a really good mind set, that I am sure his coach father instilled in him.  It is so hard to know who Sam will be.  Terry and Jahan are not elite. We do not have any TE who can get YAC. We need an elite player to pair with Sam IMO.  Like Brady had Gronk.  Mahomes has Kelsey.  Manning had Harrison and Wayne. Terry who is a solid WR, is not elite. Maybe it is the play calling of EB, and the routes but both Terry and Jahan have been disappointments this year.  So what does Sam need? A solid or at least a decent O line that will give him time. That will block efficiently.  And like Mahomes, like Brady, and eventually for Manning, a good Defense. It not even have to be elite. It just has to be solid in coverage. Solid in getting after the QB sometime.  We linebacker issues. We do not have a shutdown corner. It goes on and on.  And it is true that it starts upfront, and they have not played up to their billing.  

This is the crux of the conversation for me. It’s not that I’m married to the idea of Howell (though I still think higher of him than many do) it’s that it doesn’t matter who the QB is with our current OL situation. 
 

That needs to be sorted. And even if you don’t use our one for that… it has to be sorted. And if you’re going to use our one, which I believe will be 3 or 4, on a non OL, and we have our pick of the board outside Williams and Maye who might be off the board… why the heck wouldn’t you use it on Harrison if available? If Harrison is gone and we are 3, I’d argue a small trade back with Maye or Williams on the board would net us a fortune for a rebuilding team. 
 

And that trade back could even still land us in a situation where we can get a QB and OL in the first, if you prefer that route. 
 

This is about asset management to me… and improving the roster the most. I just don’t think a QB does that in a vacuum. 
 

Now, if we somehow trade for 3 OL and we’re good there and want the QB… maybe that’s the path. I think people are giving up on Howell too fast but if we have smart people in charge and they make the move I’ll hope for the best.

[MartinC]

11 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Sam is not elite. It is too early to define that right now. But he can be with a decent OL and a productive D. He has already proven what he can do with less. Just want to see what he can do with more. My whole thing about Josh Allen was that Allen didn't start becoming true elite until his third year (because of a lot better OL and D play). It does take a QB at least 2-3 years to get to that mark. 

 

So I understand why some want the new staff to start with a QB so they can have the full 5 years to work with but with Sam he will need a bigger payday after his 4th year here. But if Sam is only 1 year away from going to that potential status then you have to look at that very hard. I know I would. The worst thing that can happen is you trade him for a higher pick to another team after year 4 if he is not the guy. I know his ceiling is higher than Kirk though, and I liked Kirk a lot until I didn't. Kirk was the last QB I wanted to be our franchise QB.

 

Also, the new GM shouldn't stop at looking for a QB in every draft to bring up when and if Sam is no longer on the team or is not going to work out. But, given the right formula Sam can be the face of the franchise and I truly believe that. But I will not be happy if they go with a QB with their 1st pick this year though. 

 

Sam should have been the starter last year but stupid Ron wanted Wentz and not spend the money on the OL instead. When this thread was started back in 2021 I said build the OL first and then drop a QB from the draft. I would have been a kick ass GM with a foresight, sorry @Sacks 'n' Stuff lol

 

There is also another factor one has to consider is that the new HC might be here longer than 5 years, if he is a younger coach like Tomlin was (16 years with the Steelers so far). I know Harris doesn't want to field a middle of the pack team but if you draft a rookie in 2024 and start him over Sam that is exactly what you are going to get for the first two-three years. 

 

I found this on one website. How many checkboxes does Howell already has on this list?

12 Qualities of Top-level NFL Quarterbacks

The qualities of an elite NFL quarterback include:

1. Combination of superior arm strength and pinpoint accuracy
2. Sixth sense connection with receivers, ability to place the ball where only the receiver can get it
3. Learns the offensive system and runs it with unfettered poise
4. Studies film; able to read opponent's defensive schemes and anticipate their likely moves
5. Able to stay calm in the midst of pressure and make wise decisions about how best to distribute the ball
6. Ability to quickly scan the entire field to find the most open receiver
7. Mastery of the 2-minute offense
8. Demonstrates leadership on the field; motivates and makes other players better
9. Openly shares his appreciation and all success with the other members on the team
10. The ability to lead a team back to victory in the fourth quarter
11. Rises to the occasion in all games; even more so in big games
12. Wins championships!

 

 

That a pretty meh list tbh. It misses out - or at least does not explicitly state - the two most important qualities that makes a QB successful in the NFL. Ability to process information at game speed under pressure and then make consistently good decisions based on that. 

[KDawg]

Just now, MartinC said:

 

That a pretty meh list tbh. It misses out - or at least does not explicitly state - the two most important qualities that makes a QB successful in the NFL. Ability to process information at game speed under pressure and then make consistently good decisions based on that. 

And most important: quality coaching and line situations, which are external variables that matter.

[FootballZombie]

There is entirely too much hand shaking and not enough fat mama jokes going around for my liking.

 

I'm wasting perfectly good popcorn over here.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Especially if its the Bears and Patriots picking 1 and 2.  Why would they trade away their picks if Maye and Caleb are as good as their hype?  

 

Over the years we've heard per draft, while teams are never hanging up the phone up, the Bengals have no price for Burrow, they aren't trading him by trading away the pick, ditto the Colts with Luck, Jags with Lawrence, etc.  For among other reasons, any GM would be roasted if they traded away a potential franchise QB when their team was lacking one.  It doesn't really happen that often when you see these guys moved.  

 

Lets take this team pre Sam Howell.  If we were picking 1 or 2, we'd be ecstatic at the prospect of finally being in position to take in theory a hyped potential franchise QB.  Who among us would be saying, its cool to be in that position but if another team wants a QB, lets consider trading the pick to said team.

 

So lets take the Patriots for example.  They are almost never picking this high.  Their Qb situation is garbage.  This is an historic opportunity for them in theory to do something about it.  Their fan base judging by twitter are dying for Drake Maye.  But the Pats brass with all of that decide, "meh" lets punt on this, Washington really really wants a QB lets trade the pick to them, lets try to do this without a QB like we have been in recent years and see how it goes?

Edited December 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

As to the Marvin Harrison talk here.  That's my guy.  If I had to pick one thing in the sea of decisions that are in front of us that I don't waver on one whit, its taking him.

 

ZERO chance I am taking Fashanu or Alt (and I like both players) over Harrison.

 

As for helping Howell, IMO its not just the O line.  Our pass weapons are overrated.  I like Terry but he's going to be 29 next year.  I think he's closer to 10-15 range than a top 10 WR. I liked Dotson but he's been just OK this season. 

 

Look at the Eagles.  They have BOTH a good O line and great receiving options with AJ Brown, D. Smith, Goedert. 

 

Harrison as a prospect is out of this world.  That's not a luxury IMO for this team.    You watch the 49ers and they are loaded with weapons everywhere.  That's not this team.

 

If they took Harrison I'd still have my code red thought about O line.  Use three of the next 4 picks on O line.  While FA is never hot for O line its almost never barren either, there are typically some good interior O lineman if you pick from the top of the pile versus the bottom of the pile like we tend to do.  I gave some examples on the FA thread.

 

You want to build this team up quickly.  Have Terry as the #2 WR to Harrison, Dotson #3 and now we are cooking with fire like a contender as to passing weapons IMO.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As to the Marvin Harrison talk here.  That's my guy.  If I had to pick one thing in the sea of decisions that are in front of us that I don't waver on one whit, its taking him.

 

ZERO chance I am taking Fashanu or Alt (and I like both players) over Harrison.

 

As for helping Howell, IMO its not just the O line.  Our pass weapons are overrated.  I like Terry but he's going to be 29 next year.  I think he's closer to 10-15 range than a top 10 WR. I liked Dotson but he's been just OK this season. 

 

Look at the Eagles.  They have BOTH a good O line and great receiving options with AJ Brown, D. Smith, Goedert. 

 

Harrison as a prospect is out of this world.  That's not a luxury IMO for this team.    You watch the 49ers and they are loaded with weapons everywhere.  That's not this team.

 

If they took Harrison I'd still have my code red thought about O line.  Use three of the next 4 picks on O line.  While FA is never hot for O line its almost not barren, there are typically some good interior O lineman if you pick from the top of the pile versus the bottom of the pile like we tend to do.

 

You want to build this team up quickly.  Have Terry as the #2 WR to Harrison, Dotson #3 and now we are cooling with fire like a contender IMO.

I'll do ya one better... Harrison, Terry and Pittman. 

[philibusters]

41 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

 I don't see any QB doing well under center for the Commanders based upon its composition. Sam is a very calm guy, and he seems to benefit from a really good mind set, that I am sure his coach father instilled in him.  It is so hard to know who Sam will be.  Terry and Jahan are not elite. We do not have any TE who can get YAC. We need an elite player to pair with Sam IMO.  Like Brady had Gronk.  Mahomes has Kelsey.  Manning had Harrison and Wayne. Terry who is a solid WR, is not elite. Maybe it is the play calling of EB, and the routes but both Terry and Jahan have been disappointments this year.  So what does Sam need? A solid or at least a decent O line that will give him time. That will block efficiently.  And like Mahomes, like Brady, and eventually for Manning, a good Defense. It not even have to be elite. It just has to be solid in coverage. Solid in getting after the QB sometime.  We linebacker issues. We do not have a shutdown corner. It goes on and on.  And it is true that it starts upfront, and they have not played up to their billing.  

 

Elite QB's can play well behind bad offensive lines but even with an elite QB, their play will have a high variability if they are playing behind a bad line.  Due to injuries in 2020, the Chiefs had a bad O-Line by the time of playoffs. Mahomes got them to the Superbowl, but then they only scored 9 points or something like that in the Superbowl.  The next year, the Bengals had a below average line and made the Superbowl.  They went 10-7 and the offensive was very up and down.  Burrow got hot during the playoffs and Mahomes had one of his worst playoffs game ever in the AFC Championship game.

 

Sam Howell is not elite right now and may never be in teh same range as Mahomes or Burrow. I do think improving the O-Line would help him.  Unlike other posters, I don't think our O-Line is terrible--it is below average.  From listening the PFF podcasts over the last 5 years it has been ingrained in my head that sacks are largely a QB stat (obviously not entirely) and I do think that a lot of the sack issues fall on Howell.   That said I think the sack issues would be a lot more manageable if we had a good O-Line.

[method man]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I'll do ya one better... Harrison, Terry and Pittman. 

 

Someone is going to way overpay Pittman this offseason. He strikes me as the type of player who will get paid like an elite player without the elite player ceiling. If you want to pay a receiver big money, pay the guy who has had 10 straight 1000 yard seasons and a bunch of TDs

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, KDawg said:

I'll do ya one better... Harrison, Terry and Pittman. 

 

Pittman was an old draft crush of mine, if I recall ditto you.  Actually Terry was a draft crush, too for me back then.  So it would be an all timer for me.  

 

The Eagles couldn't handle SF with all of their weapons.  That team doesn't stop loading their team -- they have Kittle, Deebo, yet draft Aiyuk, trade for McCaffrey.  They have all those rock stars who major in YAC.   

 

I recall watching various LSU players one draft season but couldn't keepo my eyes off of Ja'marr Chase.  He was every bit his hype, he was unstoppable and couldn't be stopped.  And that was a year before he came out.  Same experience watching Ohio State, yet couldn't keep my eyes off of Marvin Harrison -- sick talent, even sicker than Jamar.

 

If we are going to compete with the big boys we want IMO at least a player or two that teams have to game plan mightly to stop.  According to the Dolphins at least we don't have a single player like that.  It's a dynamic that must change IMO if we want a trophy.   

[KDawg]

Just now, method man said:

 

Someone is going to way overpay Pittman this offseason. He strikes me as the type of player who will get paid like an elite player without the elite player ceiling. If you want to pay a receiver big money, pay the guy who has had 10 straight 1000 yard seasons and a bunch of TDs

I don't think they will overpay. But we'll see.

 

Evans wouldn't be a bad option... but my guess is being a 2/3 isn't really what he wants.

[method man]

6 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Elite QB's can play well behind bad offensive lines but even with an elite QB, their play will have a high variability if they are playing behind a bad line.  Due to injuries in 2020, the Chiefs had a bad O-Line by the time of playoffs. Mahomes got them to the Superbowl, but then they only scored 9 points or something like that in the Superbowl.  The next year, the Bengals had a below average line and made the Superbowl.  They went 10-7 and the offensive was very up and down.  Burrow got hot during the playoffs and Mahomes had one of his worst playoffs game ever in the AFC Championship game.

 

Sam Howell is not elite right now and may never be in teh same range as Mahomes or Burrow. I do think improving the O-Line would help him.  Unlike other posters, I don't think our O-Line is terrible--it is below average.  From listening the PFF podcasts over the last 5 years it has been ingrained in my head that sacks are largely a QB stat (obviously not entirely) and I do think that a lot of the sack issues fall on Howell.   That said I think the sack issues would be a lot more manageable if we had a good O-Line.

 

Good OL and a scheme that gives Sam easy answers on the longer developing pass plays. To be fair, taking sacks and being slower to process were flaws of Sam's at UNC. 

Just now, KDawg said:

I don't think they will overpay. But we'll see.

 

Evans wouldn't be a bad option... but my guess is being a 2/3 isn't really what he wants.

 

He would be 1a or 1b here. He seems unselfish about that stuff - he shared that mantle with DJax and Godwin at different points in his career

[KDawg]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Pittman was an old draft crush of mine, if I recall ditto you.  Actually Terry was a draft crush, too for me back then.  So it would be an all timer for me.  

 

The Eagles couldn't handle SF with all of their weapons.  That team doesn't stop loading their team -- they have Kittle, Deebo, yet draft Aiyuk, trade for McCaffrey.  They have all those rock stars who major in YAC.   

 

I recall watching various LSU players one draft season but couldn't keepo my eyes off of Ja'marr Chase.  He was every bit his hype, he was unstoppable and couldn't be stopped.  And that was a year before he came out.  Same experience watching Ohio State, yet couldn't keep my eyes off of Marvin Harrison -- sick talent, even sicker than Jamar.

 

If we are going to compete with the big boys we want IMO at least a player or two that teams have to game plan mightly to stop.  According to the Dolphins at least we don't have a single player like that.  It's a dynamic that must change IMO if we want a trophy.   

 

I'm in fantasy land right now but...

 

Harrison, Beebe, Corum, Jackson Powers-Johnson, Jordan Morgan...

 

Sign Pittman.

 

*salivating*

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, method man said:

 

 If you want to pay a receiver big money, pay the guy who has had 10 straight 1000 yard seasons and a bunch of TDs

 

Evans is awesome but wonder if he'd come here at his stage of his career I assume he wants to win.  I think we can but its a tougher sell coming off of lets say a 4-13 season.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, method man said:

 

 

He would be 1a or 1b here. He seems unselfish about that stuff - he shared that mantle with DJax and Godwin at different points in his career

 

Not if we draft Harrison...

[method man]

 

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Evans is awesome but wonder if he'd come here at his stage of his career I assume he wants to win.  I think we can but its a tougher sell coming off of lets say a 4-13 season.

 

Probably a fantasy for me but it is a possibility if he is focused on maximizing $ at this point in his career (he has his ring) and if some of the guys he likes on the TB staff come over here this offseason (such as Dave Canales who would be a great #2 to an offensive minded HC).

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I'm in fantasy land right now but...

 

Harrison, Beebe, Corum, Jackson Powers-Johnson, Jordan Morgan...

 

Sign Pittman.

 

*salivating*

 

I think some (me included) over the years overestimated the weapons here.  When you watch what the Eagles and 49ers built, its clearly not the same. 

 

It took awhile for it to kick in with me in a big way but the 49ers-Eagles game made me find religion on this in a bigger way.   The weapons especially YAC weapons that the 49ers have are so special.  It's not that I wasn't aware but watching them overwhelm the Eagles with it was masterful.  

 

I liked Achane and I took him in the mock draft we ran ironically for the Dolphins.  Speed-YAC.  They keep adding weapons.  When I hear beat guys keep saying yeah but the Dolphins have too many weapons for us to stop and for example on the play where Hill was wide open so was Achane, etc.  Why them?  Why not us?

 

We need guys like that clearly.   The Dolphins did a rebuild faster and much better than us clearly.  What have they tried to do?  Load up on weapons and upgrade that O line.   That's what the Lions are clearly trying to do.

 

Arguably Purdy, Goff, Tua aren't elite QBs.  But they have some elite weapons and a good O line or at least good enough.  I think most of us here agree on the O line.  But I think some (not you) might be sleeping on the need to upgrade our weapons.

 

8 minutes ago, method man said:

 

 

Probably a fantasy for me but it is a possibility if he is focused on maximizing $ at this point in his career (he has his ring) and if some of the guys he likes on the TB staff come over here this offseason (such as Dave Canales who would be a great #2 to an offensive minded HC).

 

He's awesome, I'd love it.  

Edited December 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

When I hear beat guys keep saying yeah but the Dolphins have too many weapons for us to stop and for example on the play where Hill was wide open so was Achane, etc.  Why them?  Why not us? 

 

While I dont disagree with your central point about us lacking really elite level skill positions players who can change games, its helps teams like the Dolphins get multiple guys wide open when they face dumb defensive calls and matchups. Put a rookie safety on Terry with no deep help and Terry will run past him - he might not be 4 yards open like Hill was, but he'd have plenty of separation. 

 

The one time the Dolphins allowed Samuels to get matched up on a 'backer in man Samuels ran past him and Sam hit him on wheel for an explosive. Part of what we see with other teams when they play us is a function of our defensive dysfunction as much as their superior skill level.

 

But bottom line when you watch elite teams like the Eagles and 49ers play you do see the gulf in talent AND COACHING that we currently have. 

[skinsmania123]

25 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Elite QB's can play well behind bad offensive lines but even with an elite QB, their play will have a high variability if they are playing behind a bad line.  Due to injuries in 2020, the Chiefs had a bad O-Line by the time of playoffs. Mahomes got them to the Superbowl, but then they only scored 9 points or something like that in the Superbowl.  The next year, the Bengals had a below average line and made the Superbowl.  They went 10-7 and the offensive was very up and down.  Burrow got hot during the playoffs and Mahomes had one of his worst playoffs game ever in the AFC Championship game.

 

Sam Howell is not elite right now and may never be in teh same range as Mahomes or Burrow. I do think improving the O-Line would help him.  Unlike other posters, I don't think our O-Line is terrible--it is below average.  From listening the PFF podcasts over the last 5 years it has been ingrained in my head that sacks are largely a QB stat (obviously not entirely) and I do think that a lot of the sack issues fall on Howell.   That said I think the sack issues would be a lot more manageable if we had a good O-Line.

The only player I saw consistently play behind an average to poor O line which they never adequately addressed was Andrew Luck. There was even an article written where their GM at the time said because of the contract they signed with Luck, following his rookie deal, they could not sign decent O-line players, which made no sense. I loved watching Luck play.  Luck was close to elite IMO or could have been with the right tools.  But because they did not address deficiencies in terms of protections, it prematurely ended his career because of all the hits he took. 

 

The SB of 2020 was between the Chiefs and Niners. And the Chiefs won 31-20, overcoming a 10- point deficit.  I actually think the Chiefs had a decent O line in 2020. 

Our O line is a struggling unit at best. There is not a lot of talent there.  Many of the sacks and hits Howell has taken, have been assessed by analysts to be because of the line. We have eyes as fans, and we see that too.  Nick Gates has struggled in setting protections, and Andrew Wylie has just been plain bad, in terms of missed assignments/blocks.    But yes, of course some of it is on Sam. Some of his decisions have been downright boneheaded, but something I would expect in what is essentially a 1st year QB. 

 

 I guess I just wonder if we had a more consistent line, that could set protections, create running lanes and say a real quick, RB, and gave Sam a bit more time, along with just one or two weapons like a Marvin Harrison Jr., the sort of pieces that Manning had for his career in Indy, what might he become?  I mean Manning could have won probably more SB's with Indy, but their D was simply not a solid unit. The year they were, in 2005, they won it all.  But Manning in his rookie year had 28 INT's, and yeah, he looked like a rookie. But he had flashes. And I see the same flashes with Sam, with less talent around him. 

[RandyHolt]

With the focus almost predictably now turned to complaining about our players it needs to be said again. Our coaching has been abysmal.   EB predictably looked like a rookie OC but did get some things done with an elite crap OL via Sam's strengths so he gets a small pass on some of his shortcomings. OCs used to always come across as stubborn to me but the younger generation of OCs have changed, but EB seems old school stubborn.  Gruden chiming in that its hard to even watch game tape of the defense has me thinking Ron has been trying to get fired. Jack before him. Ron allowing Cheeseman to remain employed?? Really? 100% proof of a coach that doesn't care about his job if Quan on Hill wasn't proof enough. The Dolphins even knew Hill would face man. Ron is checked out.

 

Because of those clowns the players look like damned fools running around in a failed scheme run by coaches that clearly don't adjust, on either side of the ball. I pity the fool being fooled.

Edited December 6, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Question for everyone, would you trade the better 3rd rounder to move up 1 spot for Harrison? (From #4 to #3)

[Warhead36]

9 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Question for everyone, would you trade the better 3rd rounder to move up 1 spot for Harrison? (From #4 to #3)

Are both top two QBs already gone? Also would need to gauge the potential trade up market. I love Harrison but if we can pull off a reverse RG3 and load up the new regime with a bunch of assets to rebuild with I'd have to think about it.