The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

One thing that I think people miss on their Daniels evals... That guy has a year and a half to throw.

 

WHich ideally, is what you'd make sure happens if you draft him.

 

Which goes back to my thoughts: If you want to draft Daniels, great. I don't think it's a great plan, but I get it. But you HAVE to make sure the OL is shored up or he's going to look very similar to Howell, except not as stout and probably more likely to get injured.

 

I also find the "Caleb Williams is the guy" crowd to be interesting. One of the knocks on Howell is his size... right?

 

Maye is the prototype of the group, but hasn't looked much different than Howell on film. Trade Howell for... a more asset excessive and taller Howell?

 

If the new group likes a guy... fine. But if the OL isn't fixed we're going down the same sink hole. 

Yeah if we go QB its under the assumption that we sign at least two OL in FA and draft two more.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah if we go QB its under the assumption that we sign at least two OL in FA and draft two more.

That is a bold assumption, though. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

One thing that I think people miss on their Daniels evals... That guy has a year and a half to throw.

 

WHich ideally, is what you'd make sure happens if you draft him.

 

Which goes back to my thoughts: If you want to draft Daniels, great. I don't think it's a great plan, but I get it. But you HAVE to make sure the OL is shored up or he's going to look very similar to Howell, except not as stout and probably more likely to get injured.

 

I also find the "Caleb Williams is the guy" crowd to be interesting. One of the knocks on Howell is his size... right?

 

Maye is the prototype of the group, but hasn't looked much different than Howell on film. Trade Howell for... a more asset excessive and taller Howell?

 

If the new group likes a guy... fine. But if the OL isn't fixed we're going down the same sink hole. 

 

As you know i am VERY vocal as a critic of their efforts on the O line, its been the lead dance of why i've bailed on Ron.

 

I know there are a few stragglers here who think the o line issues are hyperbole and its not that bad.  But most here, i think feel about it the way we do.

 

I think the O line debate is simple the way its presented by some.  Can you improve the O line without using their first pick in the draft on it?  That seems to be the whole discussion more or less.   Ditto I notice with fans on twitter.

 

My feeling is yes.  But, I am also good with using the first pick in the draft on O line which clearly be the most ideal to fix that spot.  And I got no problem with those pushing that narrative.   

 

I don't know for sure if I'd pull the trigger on Daniels.  I am not just ruling it out as some ridiculous get out of here, its not on the table idea which i get the vibe from some -- not you.   The one thing I know with 100% certainty as to what I'd do is i am not taking Fashanu and Alt over Marvin Harrison Jr., if that opportunity arises.  And I am one of the bigger fans here of both tackles.  But Harrison to me is too special to pass over it.  So in that context, yeah i am using those 2 2nd round picks and FA to attack the O line.

 

Am I good with heck using the first rounder and two 2nd rounders on the o line?  Yes.   But I am not married to that.   i am not married to the first rounder must be an O lineman.  To me there are 3 things that would put me away from using the first rounder on O line.

 

A. trading down

B.  Marvin Harrison Jr.

C.  If the new GM thinks a QB at their spot is potentially elite with a higher ceiling than Sam

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Tyler Spiers]

7 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Draft Jayden Daniels and I would be fine with it. Or whoever the Person in charge feels it makes the team better but make the right chose. No need to discredit Howell because Carr and Kirk would have been destroyed by this OL too this year. So glad we did not sign another castoff like Carr this last season. Kirk has Top WR's has had a dominate RB and way better OL these last few years and won nothing too.  At this stage Howell has been equal to Kirk who had a better OL at the time here.   

If you drafted Daniels and traded Howell, what could you realistically get for Howell? A first that we can use on OL? Or would you just have Daniels and Howell compete? Love Howell to death, I think he'll be a star, but if Daniels is a Lamar Jackson type talent, I would be good with that. The question is, Is Daniels that type of talent? And can he survive behind a rebuilding Offensive Line?

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

We have seen that here.

 

And Ron legit tried to sign the guy to a new deal.

Clown show

Eh, somewhat difference scenarios from the QB perspective:

 

It was the last game and it was a meaningless game, and Ron had already insulted him by benching him for Wentz.  I see Hallock's point of not wanting to play in a meaningless game.  

 

Ron should never have signed him to the first contract, let alone tried to sign him to the second.  Thank God the idiot Falcons saved us from ourselves on that one.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, Tyler Spiers said:

If you drafted Daniels and traded Howell, what could you realistically get for Howell? A first that we can use on OL? Or would you just have Daniels and Howell compete? Love Howell to death, I think he'll be a star, but if Daniels is a Lamar Jackson type talent, I would be good with that. The question is, Is Daniels that type of talent? And can he survive behind a rebuilding Offensive Line?

It really depends on the last 4 games.

 

If EB reverts to form and they start flinging the ball all over the field again, and he has a few 300 yard games, and is way up there in total yards and TDs, and his other measurables are on the rise, then you could definitely get a high second for him, as a known commodity starter on a 5th round rookie deal.  I don't see a path to a first rounder, and if somebody was willing to trade a first for him, why the hell are you trading him to begin with?  Top 2 draft pick QBs bust all the time, see Trubisky, Baker Baker the TD maker, Wentz (to a lesser extent, he was REALLY good early, then got hurt, and never recovered either his physical tools or brain), etc.  

 

1 bird in hand is better than 2 in the bush.  If he's worth a first, you keep him.  Period.  

[FootballZombie]

45 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

 

 

I sure am.

 

Your welcome to your opinion about it but I view it very much in the same light.

 

[Warhead36]

20 minutes ago, Tyler Spiers said:

If you drafted Daniels and traded Howell, what could you realistically get for Howell? A first that we can use on OL? Or would you just have Daniels and Howell compete? Love Howell to death, I think he'll be a star, but if Daniels is a Lamar Jackson type talent, I would be good with that. The question is, Is Daniels that type of talent? And can he survive behind a rebuilding Offensive Line?

Not sure we'd get much for Howell. The only scenario I could maybe see is if EB got a Coordinator job with a team picking higher than us that needs a QB and maybe we package #4 and Howell to the Pats for #2, something like that(which is like less than .0001% chance).

 

Daniels is a talent but I'm not that high on him. I don't like his more advanced age(I'm against rookies being over 23)and the fact that he's so reliant on running. I wouldn't completely lambast the pick and if our entire new regime(Ownership, FO, coaches)are all in on him then I'd be okay with it but I just get the sense he'll bust in the league.

 

Honestly the only QB I really like is Maye and there is no chance he falls past 2.

[skinsfan66]

17 minutes ago, Tyler Spiers said:

If you drafted Daniels and traded Howell, what could you realistically get for Howell? A first that we can use on OL? Or would you just have Daniels and Howell compete? Love Howell to death, I think he'll be a star, but if Daniels is a Lamar Jackson type talent, I would be good with that. The question is, Is Daniels that type of talent? And can he survive behind a rebuilding Offensive Line?

I am all in on Howell but if we hired a competent Person (with the ball in the Harris group to make) It's his choice I just have mine. Always open to upgrade and have comp. Just need someone to build the right team.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

 

Daniels is a talent but I'm not that high on him. I don't like his more advanced age(I'm against rookies being over 23)and the fact that he's so reliant on running. I wouldn't completely lambast the pick and if our entire new regime(Ownership, FO, coaches)are all in on him then I'd be okay with it but I just get the sense he'll bust in the league.

 

 

Daniels is 22, he will turn 23 towards the end of his rookie season.  

[skinsfan66]

24 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It really depends on the last 4 games.

 

If EB reverts to form and they start flinging the ball all over the field again, and he has a few 300 yard games, and is way up there in total yards and TDs, and his other measurables are on the rise, then you could definitely get a high second for him, as a known commodity starter on a 5th round rookie deal.  I don't see a path to a first rounder, and if somebody was willing to trade a first for him, why the hell are you trading him to begin with?  Top 2 draft pick QBs bust all the time, see Trubisky, Baker Baker the TD maker, Wentz (to a lesser extent, he was REALLY good early, then got hurt, and never recovered either his physical tools or brain), etc.  

 

1 bird in hand is better than 2 in the bush.  If he's worth a first, you keep him.  Period.  

I think he is worth a 1st. so I would keep Howell.

[method man]

I think the fundamental reason a new GM/coach should give Howell next season to prove himself is because he has shown us that he is a special player creating off schedule. It is entirely possible that he is flawed on schedule and he can’t process or anticipate throws quickly enough but he deserves the ability to prove whether or not he can in a better scheme

[skinsfan66]

24 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I sure am.

 

Your welcome to your opinion about it but I view it very much in the same light.

 

It's just a opinion too for me, I think he would have been a fine backup but not at the price Atlanta paid or that he quit on the team. And I respect your opinion too.

[88Comrade2000]

We all have opinions on what we should do but we are going to have to trust what the Gm and coach will do?

 

QB will be the biggest decision they make and they have to decide, do they want to hitch their future on Sam or on someone they draft.  Especially the coach, as Gm likely gets a second crack but if qb doesn’t work out; coach likely is gone.  Just the way it is.  So, they will go with the QB they believe in. Maybe Sam or maybe not Sam but we have to trust in what they do.

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Daniels is 22, he will turn 23 towards the end of his rookie season.  

He turns 23 later this month, which means he'll turn 24 near the end of his rookie season.

 

In contrast, Howell just turned 23 back in September and is already in his second year. CJ Stroud turned 22 in October.

 

It might seem nitpicky, but that extra 1-2 years makes a HUGE difference both in terms of how they look in college and your potential development/prime windows in the NFL.

[FootballZombie]

51 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah if we go QB its under the assumption that we sign at least two OL in FA and draft two more.

 

I think that is necessary regardless of what we do at QB.

[Tyler Spiers]

20 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Not sure we'd get much for Howell. The only scenario I could maybe see is if EB got a Coordinator job with a team picking higher than us that needs a QB and maybe we package #4 and Howell to the Pats for #2, something like that(which is like less than .0001% chance).

 

Daniels is a talent but I'm not that high on him. I don't like his more advanced age(I'm against rookies being over 23)and the fact that he's so reliant on running. I wouldn't completely lambast the pick and if our entire new regime(Ownership, FO, coaches)are all in on him then I'd be okay with it but I just get the sense he'll bust in the league.

 

Honestly the only QB I really like is Maye and there is no chance he falls past 2.

In that case, I would build Howell the best OL money and draft picks can buy, upgrade TE group, add a stud big WR to pair with Terry and roll with Howell. Howell feels like a Hog type player. Thick, tough, scrappy, good improviser, always trying to win. I love those type of guys, those are the type of guys who can help you win consistently throughout the years.

[skinny21]

Lots of good points brought up here, leading to a lot of thoughts bouncing around my brain.  One that stand out - what’s one (or more) negative trait that stands out with Howell?  A negative that makes it hard to see him being the guy going forward, or one that can help lead/carry a team to the playoffs and beyond.  One that makes a new staff come in and think we can (and maybe have to) do better?

 

Just off the cuff, some generic/general examples would be -

Locks onto targets

Poor internal clock

Struggles reading defenses

Accuracy issues

Poor pocket awareness

Makes boneheaded mistakes (every qb has them, but not regularly)

Lacks arm talent

Attitude/work ethic issues

 

Thoughts?

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

He turns 23 later this month, which means he'll turn 24 near the end of his rookie season.

 

In contrast, Howell just turned 23 back in September and is already in his second year. CJ Stroud turned 22 in October.

 

It might seem nitpicky, but that extra 1-2 years makes a HUGE difference both in terms of how they look in college and your potential development/prime windows in the NFL.

 

OK I see that 22 now, 23 for most of his rookie season.   What's the angle though on the age? Older now versus younger prospects in college?   Most QBs who are good play to their late 30s.   I'd get it if he were a running back.  Kirk was 24 from the jump of his rookie season.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

12 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

We all have opinions on what we should do but we are going to have to trust what the Gm and coach will do?

 

QB will be the biggest decision they make and they have to decide, do they want to hitch their future on Sam or on someone they draft.  Especially the coach, as Gm likely gets a second crack but if qb doesn’t work out; coach likely is gone.  Just the way it is.  So, they will go with the QB they believe in. Maybe Sam or maybe not Sam but we have to trust in what they do.

We don’t have to trust in anything. Who is hired will determine my level of trust.

[Skinsinparadise]

We might lose @Koolblue13 to the Bears if so..

 

 

 

[The Consigliere]

15 hours ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Will all due respect, there will Always be a hyped QB up-and-comer. If I remember correctly, wasn't Jimmy Clausen super hyped up leading to the draft as this great QB? Who did Washington end up going with in 2010 at No. 4? Trent Williams. You get guys who you think will make your team better. That doesn't always mean QB. Believe me, this team definitely needs to focus on the O-line.

 

Howell 2024. Another QB in 2025 if needed.

 

EDIT: I'm an idiot for misremembering Jimmy freaking Clausen.

No, Clausen was considered a quality QB and 2nd in the class heading into the 2009 season but by the winter of '09-'10 he was viewed as a 2nd round value. Kiper loved him, but he went where he was expected to go. Round 2. It was a terrible class, with Bradford, and nothing else of note. 

 

Look at 2010, 2013, 2014, 2019, 2022. Every single one of those classes had an "awful" grade on its QB prospects. 

 

If your argument is that the NFL finds a way to push some guy up, even in bad classes, I'd sort of half agree: even in terrible classes like '13, '14, '19, and '22, they talked themselves into guys, any FSU fan could have told the Bills EJ Manuel was gonna bust in '13, I don't know why Bortles went high in '14, but he was hyped, in '19 it was easier, Kyler was the obvious 1.01, Danny Nickels was always bull----, it was all about his athleticism, arm talent and a prayer, he wasn't even good in college, Haskins had #'s, but was a 2nd round talent, '22 didn't really have any 1st round worthy QB's after the season other than maybe a bet on Willis' athleticism. Pickett was a fraud to anyone paying attention, if you do nothing until like you're 5th year or whatever, you're a fool to buy that CV. But anyway, if your point is that even in bad QB classes, guys get elevated? Okay. Well, teams always need QB's, so even in bad classes, usually at least one guy will go 15-30 picks before they should due to a teams desperation. But those classes always turn out as advertised, '13 sucked, '14 sucked, '19 sucked, '22 sucked. None of them surprised. '10 sucked too, even Bradford (who I was suspicious of to begin with).

 

One of the reasons I lost my ---- every draft season from '17-'21 was because we refused to pay attention to the QB in the quality classes ('17, '18, '20, '21) and eventually felt forced to make "need" QB selections in '19 and '22 because of such stupidity. In fairness to the team, the '18 and '21 classes ended up busting for the most part ('18 was a C, '21 looks like a D- after having "A" grades going in), but that isn't why we didn't select QB's, we didn't select QB's because we incompetently assessed our own rosters and own needs and preferred to go after defensive help instead. 

 

For now anyway, '25 looks like a "C" class. Maybe it will be a little better, maybe a little worse, right now it looks better than '22, similar to '19 (maybe a touch better), but not great, which is why its a problem. '25 will have first round QB's, but better than these guys? Probably not. And the 2nd and 3rd best QB's in that class appear far worse than the 2nd and 3rd tier of this class. It's a problem because we needed to know who/what Howell was by the end of this season, and unfortunately, we are not going to know. the team gifted Howell a putrid OL, and a bottom of the league defense, and distorted the hell out of the process of learning and refining one's ability as a QB. We will leave this season without clarity on Howell, although the final grade is going to be a C to D+. Is he a backup? A league average starter, below average? We don't really know, and if you don't have a QB, you have to get one. It's NFL 101, we flunked this decision in 2017-2021 every single offseason. What do we do? I don't have any good answers. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Speaking of Bieineimy was listening to Logan Paulsen and he echoed what the Dolphin players said.  He goes defenses are really cued into this offense and what they want to do and game plan well to stop it.  The best thing according to him (this is similar to what the Dolphins said) is what Howell does running off script.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Tyler Spiers]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

Lots of good points brought up here, leading to a lot of thoughts bouncing around my brain.  One that stand out - what’s one (or more) negative trait that stands out with Howell?  A negative that makes it hard to see him being the guy going forward, or one that can help lead/carry a team to the playoffs and beyond.  One that makes a new staff come in and think we can (and maybe have to) do better?

 

Just off the cuff, some generic/general examples would be -

Locks onto targets

Poor internal clock

Struggles reading defenses

Accuracy issues

Poor pocket awareness

Makes boneheaded mistakes (every qb has them, but not regularly)

Lacks arm talent

Attitude/work ethic issues

 

Thoughts?

Locks onto targets - Doesn't look like it to me.

Poor internal clock - Not seeing it although hard to judge with this OL.

Struggles reading defenses - Possibly, which is why he throws all the pick 6's. Can this be fixed with experience?

Accuracy issues - I think he's very accurate. Have only seen a handful of really off target throws.

Poor pocket awareness - He rarely ever has a pocket but when he does, he stands in there and usually makes a big play. The beautiful Dotson TD for an example.

Makes boneheaded mistakes (every qb has them, but not regularly) - Could be a problem if not fixed. Is this his Achilles' Heel or is it because he's young and has zero time? This will be what makes his career if he can overcome it.

Lacks arm talent - The best arm talent Washington has had in years.

Attitude/work ethic issues - Zero issues here and don't think there ever will be. In fact, if the rest of the team had his current attitude, we'd be in the playoff hunt.

[RandyHolt]

39 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

We might lose @Koolblue13 to the Bears if so..

 

 

 

I think the record will show we regret letting most of our assistants walk.

 

Teams have been plucking future stud coaches from under our noses for 10+ years. I am sure some GM is interested in how EB would look with an offensive line, or run game, with some fine tuning of his play calling that I think is obvious Ron is NOT giving him. Lets just call it working in a functional organization that isn't led by guys walking the plank arms crossed.  Now that they have him not Andy Reid on record the curtain has been pulled back. He looks raw (anyone really truly surprised??) but anyone expecting otherwise may have set too high an expectation. ALL knew our OL sucked. Did all adjust expectations on EB accordingly? Play calling all starts up front.

I'll be the salmon betting $10 to win $100000 that one day EB will be a respected OC and people here will be complaining about our OC of the day, en route to stardom in his next stop.

 

EB has us in the top 10 in RZ efficiency.  Ok 10th - still that is nothing to scoff at. Turner scheming everyone open had us at 25th.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by RandyHolt