The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[skinny21]

Not sure how we can put a ceiling on Howell yet.  Not as inexperienced as he is, with a porous oline, in a new offense, an ineffective run game and a struggling defense.  Not when the worst things you can say about him is he takes too many sacks, needs to get more consistent about protecting himself and is 6’ tall.  Way too early.

 

And on the other side of the ledger, he’s accurate, can make all the throws, doesn’t get rattled, learns from mistakes, is a solid athlete, tough, a hard worker, and has zero character concerns.

 

The real questions (IMO) are - can he protect himself consistently (longevity concerns), and can he get comfortable enough in an offensive system and read defenses quickly enough to speed up his reads/throw with anticipation more consistently.  

 

 

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

Not sure how we can put a ceiling on Howell yet.  Not as inexperienced as he is, with a porous oline, in a new offense, an ineffective run game and a struggling defense.  Not when the worst things you can say about him is he takes too many sacks, needs to get more consistent about protecting himself and is 6’ tall.  Way too early.

 

And on the other side of the ledger, he’s accurate, can make all the throws, doesn’t get rattled, learns from mistakes, is a solid athlete, tough, a hard worker, and has zero character concerns.

 

The real questions (IMO) are - can he protect himself consistently (longevity concerns), and can he get comfortable enough in an offensive system and read defenses quickly enough to speed up his reads/throw with anticipation more consistently.  

 

 

Yep like I said I don't think you can make any sort of judgment on Howell one way or another until season's end.

[zCommander]

10 hours ago, Stihl89 said:

For a dude with zero elite traits, he is going to have to be good all around to be top 10.

 

Taylor Heinicke is that you?

[Ball Security]

Of the six QBs we’ve faced this season, Howell is better than four of them.

[Stihl89]

21 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

Arm strength? He's in the top 15. Period. Don't need more. 

Agree. Which means he’s not elite there. 

 

22 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

Height? I would argue that Brees and Wilson had great careers. 

Exceptions to the rule. Maybe Sam is one of them but people want tall QBs for a reason. Could easily argue that height is maybe part of the reason for some of the sacks 

 

23 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

Speed? Right now he has top 10 QB rushing stats, and I wish we ran him more.  

Again hwre are stats can lie. Not a single person would argue he’s a great or better runner. He’s better than roughly half the starters. If he could see and throw the ball he would have significantly less rushing yards. It’s why you can’t carte Blanche look at stats. It also helps him a ton that his defense is terrible and allows him to start from terrible starting positions allowing lots of available yards. 

[Warhead36]

Howell is shifty and nimble but certainly isn't elite when it comes to speed. But I would like to see him use his legs more. Imagine if half his sacks he took off and ran and instead picked up ~5 yards instead of losing ~7+.

[skinny21]

3 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

Again hwre are stats can lie. Not a single person would argue he’s a great or better runner. He’s better than roughly half the starters. If he could see and throw the ball he would have significantly less rushing yards. It’s why you can’t carte Blanche look at stats. It also helps him a ton that his defense is terrible and allows him to start from terrible starting positions allowing lots of available yards. 

And allows the opposing pass rush to tee off on him (as if our oline could stop any pass rush).

 

edit:  I actually wanna expand on that point.  Our defense being terrible also gives the opposing defense plenty of rest.  So Howell is dealing with defenses that are rarely tired out, a bad oline, an ineffective ground game, receivers that apparently aren’t getting much separation.  And on top of that, he’s often had to come from behind, he’s inexperienced, and in a new offense with a play caller that is also inexperienced.  Talk about the deck being stacked against a qb…

Edited October 16, 2023 by skinny21

[Ball Security]

3 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

Agree. Which means he’s not elite there. 

 

Exceptions to the rule. Maybe Sam is one of them but people want tall QBs for a reason. Could easily argue that height is maybe part of the reason for some of the sacks 

 

Again hwre are stats can lie. Not a single person would argue he’s a great or better runner. He’s better than roughly half the starters. If he could see and throw the ball he would have significantly less rushing yards. It’s why you can’t carte Blanche look at stats. It also helps him a ton that his defense is terrible and allows him to start from terrible starting positions allowing lots of available yards. 

What is your point?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

It’s why you can’t carte Blanche look at stats.

 

I think you mean à la carte...because we all literally have carte blanche to look at his stats.

[zCommander]

1 minute ago, Stihl89 said:

Could easily argue that height is maybe part of the reason for some of the sacks 

 

Sounds like to me you are just grasping at straws here. Wentz was taller than Sam and got sacked a lot as well. Might want to blame the lack of a legit OL instead. It is main reason for Sam taking a lot sack but apparently to you that is a non-factor. 

[redskinss]

39 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Taylor Heinicke is that you?

[NoCalMike]

My POV on QB's in the NFL is as such....You've got your Top 3-5 QBs in the league that are so good they elevate JAG players around them.  You've got your Bottom 3-5 starting QB's in the league where no matter how much help you give them, their play does not rise to being NFL level and they are usually replaced as a starting QB ASAP.

Then you have the vast majority of QB's that make up the middle 2-3 tiers who are good enough to win with, but not necessarily win because of.  That is just how it is.  Unless you strike gold and end up with one of those Top 3-5 QB's then the roster around the QB is going to determine a lot of what you can expect to get out of the QB.

 

Just this past weekend, look at how different Purdy & Hurts looked when they faced defenses that could actually pressure them.  They didn't look terrible necessarily, but it definitely made a huge different that Hurts didn't have all day to drop back and survey the field before deciding to pass or take off running.  Then with Purdy, once CMAC went out with an injury and he no longer had the safety of throwing a 3 yards pass to CMAC who would take it for 15 yards every time, suddenly Purdy had to actually drop back and go through more progressions and he didn't look like the world-beater QB that we have been told his record as a starter showed him to be.

[Fan since a Fetus]

Howell needs to cure the sack issue and get better at hitting guys coming out of their break. They both can be cured as he gains more experience and becomes more familiar with the offense. They both go together at times. He can excel in every other part of the game. He’s young. He’s had 7 starts and some of y’all want him to be Tom Brady with 200 rings all ready. 
 

But that brings up another issue.  There is a 99% chance he will have a different offensive play caller next year with a new system. That really hurts development. I feel like we’ve seen that play out here before. 

 

I am super excited for Howell. While I hope we have new coaches and staff next year, I am aware that it might slow his development further. That’s why we need a great offensive mind to be our coach. If we can get consistency through the head coach and qb, things will be a bit better.

 

Also, who has a stronger arm than Howell? Herbert, Mahomes, Allen - I’m drawing a blank on others right now. You know who had a pretty average arm with no elite physical skills? Peyton Manning. He beat you with his knowledge and trickery. I loved every second of watching that guy play.

 

big time shorter QBs:

Wilson (his days are done though)

Brees

Flutie

Jourgensen 

Tarkenton

Kilmer

I’m sure there are others. 

 

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Howell is shifty and nimble but certainly isn't elite when it comes to speed. But I would like to see him use his legs more. Imagine if half his sacks he took off and ran and instead picked up ~5 yards instead of losing ~7+.

 

He’s tried doing that but the holes aren’t usually there to slip through. A lot of times it ends up in a sack. I remember two times it happened yesterday. So, he’s trying in this department, but it’s not working out the way you would want it too. 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Fan since a Fetus

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Warhead36]

I don't think enough emphasis is being placed on our WRs simply not getting the job done. Too often there is nobody getting open. When guys get open Howell is seeing em and hitting em but the guys around him are not consistently winning.

 

Now is it a scheme issue or a talent issue I'm not sure. But EB was able to scheme open the likes of Juju Smith Shuster and Marqez Vantles Scalding in KC so...

[Thinking Skins]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't think enough emphasis is being placed on our WRs simply not getting the job done. Too often there is nobody getting open. When guys get open Howell is seeing em and hitting em but the guys around him are not consistently winning.

 

Now is it a scheme issue or a talent issue I'm not sure. But EB was able to scheme open the likes of Juju Smith Shuster and Marqez Vantles Scalding in KC so...

I think a serious conversation needs to be had with EB about throwing a 4 verts call on second and 14 from the 21 with NO CHECKDOWN. We didn't need to get everything there. We just needed to get some offense and do a screen or a draw play or something and he just left the QB out to dry. It was a Spurrier type play. 

[Warhead36]

5 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I think a serious conversation needs to be had with EB about throwing a 4 verts call on second and 14 from the 21 with NO CHECKDOWN. We didn't need to get everything there. We just needed to get some offense and do a screen or a draw play or something and he just left the QB out to dry. It was a Spurrier type play. 

I think he relies on the TE too much too. I mean it makes sense when you have the GOAT in Kelce but we have anything but.

 

Terry needs to be the focal point of the pass game. 10+ targets every game. The best offenses prioritize getting the ball to their stars early and often and the complimentary pieces get theirs here and there when the opportunity comes up, and mid game you can adjust if there is some super favorable matchup.

[Stihl89]

As I’ve been saying 

 

These QBs are purgatory leading 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Stihl89

[srtman04]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think he relies on the TE too much too. I mean it makes sense when you have the GOAT in Kelce but we have anything but.

 

Terry needs to be the focal point of the pass game. 10+ targets every game. The best offenses prioritize getting the ball to their stars early and often and the complimentary pieces get theirs here and there when the opportunity comes up, and mid game you can adjust if there is some super favorable matchup.

 

This is probably why we need to draft a top TE talent on the next up coming draft.   Having a monster TE is a big staple in modern NFL offenses that are successful.  

Edited October 16, 2023 by srtman04

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think he relies on the TE too much too. I mean it makes sense when you have the GOAT in Kelce but we have anything but.

 

Terry needs to be the focal point of the pass game. 10+ targets every game. The best offenses prioritize getting the ball to their stars early and often and the complimentary pieces get theirs here and there when the opportunity comes up, and mid game you can adjust if there is some super favorable matchup.

If you sort players on PFR by SUCC% (40% on 1st down, 60% on 2nd, 10% on 3rd), then Logan Thomas ranks 15th. and Samuel ranks 31st. and Terry 48th. So you can see that Sam is distributing the ball and getting it to his outlets and they are reliable. 

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

As I’ve been saying 

 

These QBs are purgatory leading 

What’s the difference between Howell and the rest of them?

[Warhead36]

If Howell gives you Dak like production on a rookie contract that's a steal.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

He’s surpassed my expectations for sure. I think he has the talent to be a perennial top 16 guy and that’s at the VERY least. But his pocket presence stinks and I’d argue yesterday was his worst showing in that department. He walked into damn near every sack and some of those were pristine pockets. Hope he isn’t “seeing ghosts” after all of those hits. If he could simply just be “bad” at sack taking and not “historically bad”, he’d be firmly in the top 12 best QBs so far. I just really don’t want him getting rolled up on and getting hurt. It only takes one. 

17 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

As I’ve been saying 

 

These QBs are purgatory leading 

Those QBs are only “purgatory leading” bc of their contracts. It’s way to early to start thinking that way in regards to Sam. 
 

Also, Dak and Jimmy win a ton of games and are always in the playoffs so if that’s purgatory, sign me up. 

17 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

As I’ve been saying 

 

These QBs are purgatory 

Edited October 16, 2023 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

He’s tied for 5th in Big Time Throws according to PFF. Definitely a big talent in there that needs nurturing

[Ball Security]

30 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

As I’ve been saying 

 

These QBs are purgatory leading 

It’d be helpful to have some explanation of what this visualization is depicting. I’m assuming that the number of sacks is what drives the size of the circle, but that is a guess, but there’s no indication of what the x and y axes represent, or where other QBs land.