The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[TheShredder]

3 hours ago, bowhunter said:

Sam WILL break our hearts a few times this season.

I won't let that hurt my feeling.

I'm saving it.

 

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

Not to complain about having stuff to read but maybe somebody should start an OL thread or something 

 

Seriously, some people need to get a room with the OL and figure this thing out. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, skinny21 said:

 

 

Laying it out for next year, I see 1 young starter in Stromberg, 1 guy I think will be a high end player in Cosmi (though it’ll be a contract year for him in 2024), 2 guys that are more than likely challenging for depth roles at tackle - Brooks/Daniels, though both might be better suited inside (and might not even be on the team next year).  Then Paul to challenge for the LG position, hopefully at least capable of serving as a decent depth option.  Essentially, I like that we have some developing youth in the wings, so I see some hope for the future, even though I’d like to add some serious talent next year.  Oh, and theoretically, that youth will probably be competing with Whylie/Gates.  Not in love with those 2, but they at least give us a baseline of talent.

 

As Tischer from Finlay's podcast said if Ron is going to emphasize the trenches, it shouldn't just mean the D line.  The O line matters, too.   I think the roster is stacked but the O line is a major weakness IMO.  Lets go to town on it next off season.  I don't want the ceiling for our O line to be mediocrity.   

 

We used to have a bad to mediocre D line until it was developed into a strength.  I'd like to see the same mindset for the O line.

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

Seriously, some people need to get a room with the OL and figure this thing out. 

 

lol, its what the media talks about too.  Not because they and some of us here are nuts but because the thought is they bought a nice house but one room feels absurdly out of place with the rest of the house and not up to par.  thus that's the focus of conversation about the house.  I don't think its that's crazy.    

 

To put in perspective we got a young unproven QB yet the conversation about this team by many turns into well will the O line hold up?  Much more trust in Howell than O line.  But I think that's a good sign.  Much better it's that unit that's the concern than Howell.  The O line can be fixed much easier clearly than go find another QB. 

 

It feels like eons ago but the consternation years back was on the D line. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, bowhunter said:

Because it seems that almost all of us need some grounding here: Sam WILL break our hearts a few times this season. It's just what Rookie QBs do. I recall well when this board went nuts for Cousins, and then screamed that he should be benched after a bad pick. Even Cousins demeanor seemed to show self doubt. But with games came growth. I excited and optimistic to watch Sam grow. But he's not superhuman. Prepare for some heartbreak along with the puppy love

 

Agree.  We need to patient with his ups and downs.   Overall I am optimistic.   But I am not expecting him to blow the doors off every week.  He deserves plenty of slack and patience.

 

And lol, sorry, I think part of the reason he deserves a break is he doesn't have the best offensive line. 😎 

4 hours ago, bowhunter said:

I still don't see why Strom isn't getting reps at C and let Gates take over at G. Seems too obvious to work I reckon. Strom will only grow with reps

 

For whatever reason I get the vibe listening to Keim among others they don't love what they saw from Gates at guard with the Giants and like him much more at center.

 

But I am with you overall, i ultimately like to see Stromberg at center.

 

I don't care for much of Rivera's moves on the O line over the years.  But if I had to pick a favorite move from him at the O line it would be drafting Stromberg.  IMO that was a good pick.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

From Alex Smith to Carson Wentz, Commanders hoping Sam Howell can end long QB search

SHBURN, Va. -- The understatement was delivered shortly after Washington’s second preseason game had ended.

Commanders coach Ron Rivera was discussing quarterback Sam Howell's performance, both in camp and in the game. He finished by saying Howell had a chance to be a “really good” quarterback for them.

“We’ve been looking for one,” Rivera said about the quarterback position.

Indeed they have.

 

If Howell hits, even if he’s just solid, then the Commanders can -- finally -- scratch "find a quarterback" off their to-do list each offseason. Since Kirk Cousins last played in Washington in 2017, the franchise has started 12 different quarterbacks due to a combination of injuries and ineptitude. In Rivera’s three seasons alone, the Commanders have started eight.

The quest goes back a long way: Since winning the Super Bowl to close the 1991 season, Washington has started 34 quarterbacks, including Howell. Only two -- Gus Frerotte and Cousins -- have started more than 40 games for the franchise.

But Rivera is hopeful this is the year Washington's QB carousel stops.

 

We feel pretty comfortable, pretty good about the guy this year. We feel very strongly -- I know I do -- going into this season that we've got a guy,” Rivera said of Howell.

“For three seasons," Rivera added, "I've always felt that I had a question mark and now it feels like, ‘OK, this is pretty good.’ I mean, I'm pretty comfortable, pretty confident and I look forward to seeing it."

It’s been particularly bad since Cousins left. Look at the combined numbers in the past five years. The Commanders are 31st in total QBR, ahead of only the New York Jets. Their 95 touchdown passes rank 29th and their 75 interceptions were more than all but six teams. They also averaged 6.6 yards per pass attempt, ahead of only three teams.

Washington placed the franchise tag on Cousins twice. After the 2016 season, multiple sources said at the time that many inside the building knew Cousins would not sign a long-term deal. They pushed president Bruce Allen to trade him. Instead, Allen wanted to try to sign him and failed; they later received a conditional third-round pick in 2019 as compensation when Cousins signed as a free agent with the Minnesota Vikings in 2018.

 

“Kirk’s age and what he’s done and how much he was improving, it was a no-brainer to keep him,” said former Washington coach Jay Gruden, who was with the Commanders from 2014-19. “If he didn’t want to come back, then you have to get something for him. This is a hot commodity. For us to get a conditional third is one of the worst things in the history of the NFL.”

The search for a starting quarterback has become exhausting. In the last five years, Washington has gone the trade route (Alex Smith, Carson Wentz) that cost the club a combined three third-round picks plus corner Kendall Fuller; it invested a first-round pick (Dwayne Haskins) and a fifth (Howell); it signed a low-cost free agent (Ryan Fitzpatrick).

“Every year it was a point of discussion. Every year it was, ‘Well, what are we going to do? How are we going to do it?’” Rivera said of the quarterback search.

The players feel it, too.

“If you look at the guys who've won the Super Bowl and been consistently in the playoffs, they have that guy that they've been relying on for some time now,” Washington receiver Terry McLaurin said early in training camp. “Obviously, we're still looking for that guy. We just want someone who's going to be consistently out there and continue to grow with us as a group.”

Punter Tress Way has played for Washington since 2014. He lived through the end of the Robert Griffin III era and the three-year stretch with Cousins as the starter. Since then, Way has witnessed one change after another. After watching Howell this summer, he was, once again, optimistic.

“Maybe this year, man,” Way said.

Washington’s post-Cousins quarterback journey has not been fun for the franchise. Here are all the QBs who have followed him:

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-commanders/post/_/id/43071/commanders-hoping-post-kirk-cousins-qb-search-ends-with-sam-howell

[Skinsinparadise]

The Commanders’ Bet on Sam Howell Has Been a Long Time Coming

Washington coach Ron Rivera’s confidence is unwavering as he gives the second-year quarterback the reins this fall.

 

It was the night of Jan. 8, and Commanders coach Ron Rivera was making the hourlong commute from FedEx Field in the Maryland suburbs back to his Virginia home. Sitting shotgun was his wife, Stephanie, and it didn’t take Rivera long to bend her ear with the 26–6 win over the Cowboys to close out an up-and-down 2022 season.

The topic: quarterbacks. And, really, not quarterbacks plural, but one in particular.

The coach made the decision to turn to Sam Howell a week earlier, starting him instead of going with his initial instinct (to start Taylor Heinicke, then go to Howell after a series or two). And by the time Rivera climbed into his car, he not only had affirmation that the final call was the right one—Howell’s numbers weren’t spectacular, but he also was comfortable and in command during the win—but Rivera also knew he had a rookie who had played well enough to invite new questions.

“You can ask Stephanie, all we f---ing talked about was the quarterback, what the quarterback did, who he was,” Rivera said, sitting on his office couch on another steamy August day. “I kept saying, F---, if I would have known this, I would have played him sooner. When you only have so much time to show it, it’s hard, I kept thinking, God … but after that game, everything told me this kid, give him the opportunity and see what he does with it.”

 

By the time the coach and his wife pulled into the driveway, they’d reviewed everything. Rivera told Stephanie he was particularly impressed with Howell correcting the one big mistake he made, a pick on a second-and-goal from the Dallas 5-yard line early in the second quarter. Howell explained to the coaches that he got greedy and tried to feather the ball over the coverage to Cam Sims, rather than lead him to the corner of the end zone.

 

Now, I know, the quarterback told Rivera. I’ll throw it to pylon next time.

Rivera thought to himself, This is a guy that gets it. He understands. He sees what’s going on.

He explained to Stephanie that he wanted to get Howell in the right mindset with the offseason coming, because the coach thought Howell had a real chance. Knowing that exit meetings started the next morning, she asked her husband what he planned to tell the quarterback.

Rivera thought for a minute. He’d tell Howell the opportunity was there for him to win the starting job, and that the Commanders would sign a veteran backup who would come in and compete with him for it—but that Howell would have every chance to assert himself as the No. 1. It was all the QB needed to hear.

 

...But nowhere are the stakes higher than with the Commanders. Howell’s playing for a new owner who will spend the season trying to find the right course for his once-proud franchise, a head coach who needs to win to show that owner that he’s the man to chart that course, and an offensive coordinator who arrived having been passed over head coaching jobs for a half decade, looking to take the final steps to land a top job.

 

So it goes without saying Howell had to do plenty to earn their trust, as much or more so than his draft classmates did, based on how many folks had so much on the line.

And the story there really starts with how Howell fell to the fifth round in the first place.

 

...“I knew I was going to get a leader,” Bieniemy says of assessing Howell before the draft for the Chiefs. “I knew he was a quiet kid but a quiet leader—he does everything with his actions. On top of it, the kid’s got an arm; he’s a very confident kid. He knows how to correct his mistakes. When he makes a mistake, you can tell, he’s just a little hesitant, but once he figures it out, you don’t see him repeat that mistake. The kid has a unique skill set about him, and he’s just got a swag to him. It’s a quiet, confident swag that’s pretty unique.”

All of that led to Bieniemy’s putting the same grade on Howell before the draft that the Commanders did before Howell’s final season at UNC—both saw him as a second-rounder.

 

And doubling back on that grade, and tying to their background work on what happened in 2021, led the Commanders to reverse course on their plan for the position before the ’22 draft. They hadn’t expected to take a quarterback, because they wanted to show Carson Wentz that they were solidly behind him. But as Day 3 of that draft dragged along, Howell’s presence atop the Commanders’ board became more and more glaring.

So with the 144th pick, they pulled the trigger.

---

The story of Howell’s falling into Washington’s lap isn’t wholly unlike what happened with Purdy in San Francisco. Maybe that makes the story of the 2022 draft quarterbacks one of a bunch of players who became undervalued, simply because teams were so afraid to overvalue them—and wind up with a Christian Ponder or EJ Manuel in the first round.

 

Howell was devouring everything, standing behind the starter on the field, asking questions behind the scenes, and working with his position coach, Ken Zampese, to fine-tune things. This situation was new for Howell, but he figured the best way to approach it was as if every day was game day—no exceptions.

“Obviously, it was different for me,” he says. “It was the first time in my life I wasn’t the starter. I started every year of my football career until last year. Coming into it, I knew what the situation was. I knew it was Carson’s job. I came in with the mindset of try to get better. Use this year to try to do everything I can to become the best player I can be. If I do get a chance to play, great. I knew I would go out there and take advantage of it.

 

As the weeks wore on, Rivera’s desire to give him that opportunity grew. Then came the real tipping point, when it wasn’t just that the coach was hearing it just from players in the locker room, but others in the quarterback room.

“Taylor told me, Coach, this guy’s got arm talent. I can’t throw the ball like he does,” Rivera says. “Taylor told me that. I think the world of who Taylor is. For him to tell me that, that’s what drove me to play [Howell] against Dallas, it was really how honest and up front Taylor was about this thing. I thought, I got to play this kid. Sure enough, he lived up to it.”

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/08/28/commanders-bet-on-sam-howell-starting-qb-rivera

 

[Going Commando]

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And doubling back on that grade, and tying to their background work on what happened in 2021, led the Commanders to reverse course on their plan for the position before the ’22 draft. They hadn’t expected to take a quarterback, because they wanted to show Carson Wentz that they were solidly behind him. But as Day 3 of that draft dragged along, Howell’s presence atop the Commanders’ board became more and more glaring.

So with the 144th pick, they pulled the trigger.

---

The story of Howell’s falling into Washington’s lap isn’t wholly unlike what happened with Purdy in San Francisco. Maybe that makes the story of the 2022 draft quarterbacks one of a bunch of players who became undervalued, simply because teams were so afraid to overvalue them—and wind up with a Christian Ponder or EJ Manuel in the first round.

 

I think the author displays how roster politics play a role in QB draft value, but he comes away with the wrong conclusion.  Teams aren't worried about EJ Manuel and Christian Ponder when they're on the clock and trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on a QB.  I doubt they're even thinking about them at all. They're worried about the QB1 already on their roster.  If there is a clear job opening, they'll just pick the QB where they have him graded.  If there isn't, they won't draft the QB for fear of messing things up or breaking promises with their current QB, until the value becomes so extreme and the risk so heavily mitigated that they might as well pull the trigger.  That is what happened to the entire 2022 QB class, not just with Sam Howell.

[HigSkin]

45 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I think the author displays how roster politics play a role in QB draft value, but he comes away with the wrong conclusion.  Teams aren't worried about EJ Manuel and Christian Ponder when they're on the clock and trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on a QB.  I doubt they're even thinking about them at all. They're worried about the QB1 already on their roster.  If there is a clear job opening, they'll just pick the QB where they have him graded.  If there isn't, they won't draft the QB for fear of messing things up or breaking promises with their current QB, until the value becomes so extreme and the risk so heavily mitigated that they might as well pull the trigger.  That is what happened to the entire 2022 QB class, not just with Sam Howell.

 

 

Unless you're the Cowboys (ref Lance trade and Dak's reaction).  😂😂

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by HigSkin

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

 

Unless you're the Cowboys (ref Lance trade and Dak's reaction).  😂😂

 

 

What was Dak's reaction?

[Conn]

Rivera admitting he would have started Howell earlier if he only knew how good he already was is embarrassing, but I’m not going to weigh the thread down with yet another rant about our consistent failure to self-scout under his regime. 
 

Admitting he told Howell on January 9th—before holding any meetings with his scouts or personnel people focused on the draft process—that they essentially weren’t going to draft a higher-round rookie QB no matter what, that’s another insight into their rigid and limited processes. As a fan and knowing he’s in a make or break year, I’m glad Rivera didn’t waste a pick on a destined-for-failure rookie QB. But he shouldn’t be locked into that decision in January right as the season ended and he shouldn’t be telling Howell about it. Telling him he’d compete for the starting job was enough. Some here will spin this as a positive, that Rivera finally committed to “his guy”. But he shouldn’t be recklessly sure of that decision about a guy with one start, in January. Again, it’s the rigidity I have a problem with here. 
 

He may stumble into positive outcomes at times, but there is very little good going on with Rivera’s standard processes in regards to roster construction. And process > outcome in successful organizations. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Conn

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

Rivera admitting he would have started Howell earlier if he only knew how good he already was is embarrassing, but I’m not going to weigh the thread down with yet another rant about our consistent failure to self-scout under his regime. 
 

Admitting he told Howell on January 9th—before holding any meetings with his scouts or personnel people focused on the draft process—that they essentially weren’t going to draft a higher-round rookie QB no matter what, that’s another insight into their rigid and limited processes. As a fan and knowing he’s in a make or break year, I’m glad Rivera didn’t waste a pick on a destined-for-failure rookie QB. But he shouldn’t be locked into that decision in January right as the season ended and he shouldn’t be telling Howell about it. Telling him he’d compete for the starting job was enough. Some here will spin this as a positive, that Rivera finally committed to “his guy”. But he shouldn’t be recklessly sure of that decision about a guy with one start, in January. Again, it’s the rigidity I have a problem with here. 
 

He may stumble into positive outcomes at times, but there is very little good going on with Rivera’s standard processes in regards to roster construction. And process > outcome in successful organizations. 

 

The weird thing about Rivera is how disarmingly honest he can be about the process even though it often makes him look bad?  

 

I just don't know why because its strange.  I gather that either he falls in love with his own glib nature and openness to the media who he seems to badly want to curry favor with or as Randy Mueller expressed it, he acts like he has all the job security in the world.

 

For me, among all of Ron's revelations in his interviews the most stunning one is him revealing why he wouldn't have taken Herbert no matter what.  And the kicker was revealing that his defense of that action is that it fit conventional wisdown from plenty of other teams back then.

 

IMO Ron isn't an idiot or bad at his job.  But IMO he's not in the league of the better GMs-roster constructions guys in the league.  And heck ironically Ron's own interviews help reveal that he's nothing special as an evaluator.  

Edited August 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

3 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

What was Dak's reaction?

 

Salty!

 

 

[HigSkin]

 

[oraphus]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

IMO Ron isn't an idiot or bad at his job.  But IMO he's not in the league of the better GMs-roster constructions guys in the league.  And heck ironically Ron's own interviews help reveal that he's nothing special as an evaluator.  

apparently "Hey guys at least he is not a complete idiot" is the bar we set for a Skins HC these days ... sad. 

its great tv to watch him consistently stick his foot in his mouth, without the self realization to understand how it sounds to everyone else... then clumsily tries to explain away what he really meant. Then rinse, repeat a few days later.  

"The English idiot originally meant “ignorant person,” but the more usual reference now is to a person who lacks basic intelligence or common sense rather than education."  This definition seems to fit well. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I think extrapolating too much from “If I knew he was this good, I would’ve played him sooner” is mostly just confirmation bias. 

[SkinsFTW]

Just now, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I think extrapolating too much from “If I knew he was this good, I would’ve played him sooner” is mostly just confirmation bias. 

 

Fans were calling for him to play after Wince went down and all we heard was that he wasn't ready. Now RR admits that he doesn't have eyes apparently because he required Heine telling him that he could make throws that Heine couldn't.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

15 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Fans were calling for him to play after Wince went down and all we heard was that he wasn't ready. Now RR admits that he doesn't have eyes apparently because he required Heine telling him that he could make throws that Heine couldn't.

Fans were screaming for Lache Seastrunk to start a few years ago. 😆

 

Ron drafted Sam Howell. Does that not show that he thinks he can play a little?

 

Also, there were plenty of fans that were scared he was gonna get killed by Dallas behind our OL. Is it possible that Ron might’ve felt the same?

 

I mean, he committed to Howell after watching him play one game. Is that not fast enough for you guys?

 

Before everyone grills away, I have said numerous times that I would hire a new HC because I think we can upgrade. But this narrative that Ron is some blabbering idiot has gotten to ridiculous levels. 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[Renegade7]

Dude, you see this man more then his mom does now...you drafted him...how is this...wtf do you...

 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10087581-commanders-ron-rivera-says-he-regretted-not-playing-sam-howell-sooner-in-2022

 

"If I had known sooner" has somehow supplanted him not knowing we could be eliminated last year..."ohhh..."

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Renegade7

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

People forget that we kept winning games and were in the playoff hunt for most of the time Taylor was starting. You’re not going to bench him for a rookie when that’s happening.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[zCommander]

I would imagine it is Turner's fault for not starting Howell and not Ron. Turner was the OC and he should have made that call and then told Ron that he is going to put Howell in, at least after the bye week due to lack luster performance TH had in the 1st Giants game. 

 

3 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

People forget that we kept winning games and were in the playoff hunt for most of the time Taylor was starting. You’re not going to bench him when that’s happening.

 

This is also true. But I think he should have been put in the Browns game if you are trying to get to the playoff and TH wasn't doing it so as a coach you have to put everything on the line and have balls to do it. Turner didn't have any balls or a sound scheme. 

[FootballZombie]

16 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

People forget that we kept winning games and were in the playoff hunt for most of the time Taylor was starting. You’re not going to bench him for a rookie when that’s happening.

 

Judging by that new quote maybe Ron was not aware of that.

[Renegade7]

23 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

People forget that we kept winning games and were in the playoff hunt for most of the time Taylor was starting. You’re not going to bench him for a rookie when that’s happening.

 

I would've if I knew he was better then Taylor last year.

 

People forget as bad as Wentz was, we benched Taylor for him.

[samy316]

1 hour ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Fans were screaming for Lache Seastrunk to start a few years ago. 😆

 

Ron drafted Sam Howell. Does that not show that he thinks he can play a little?

 

Also, there were plenty of fans that were scared he was gonna get killed by Dallas behind our OL. Is it possible that Ron might’ve felt the same?

 

I mean, he committed to Howell after watching him play one game. Is that not fast enough for you guys?

 

Before everyone grills away, I have said numerous times that I would hire a new HC because I think we can upgrade. But this narrative that Ron is some blabbering idiot has gotten to ridiculous levels. 

 

 

He keeps opening his mouth and digging a deep hole for himself as far as credibility goes.  NO ONE wanted Wentz to start that Browns game last year.  He literally cost them a playoff spot with that move. Then to make matters worse, he didn’t know that the team could get eliminated with a lose.  The guy’s awareness is at zero.  I’m not much for calling people names, but when I hear things like this from him, along with the EB comments he made a few weeks ago, it certainly doesn’t help his case if fans think that he’s an idiot.

 

Like I said before, he should be locked in a room for a week, and be forced to watch nothing but Bill Bellichick press conferences, and copy that style going forward.  It’s better to talk less or not speak at all, then open your mouth and let people think that you’re an idiot.

Edited August 29, 2023 by samy316

[Renegade7]

Rivera's not an idiot, he just does things that are idiotic sometimes.  A lot of things do in hindsight.

 

I do that, too, but he's batting .500 at this point, Jeff Fisher reincarnated from a win loss perspective.

 

He still gave a master class in handling non-football matters with this franchise while it was getting it from every direction.

 

Maybe its because the bar has been so low for this franchise that I feel fine with a HC that has two coordinator better then him and what they do.  Gibbs II was like that and it was decent when there was decent QB play. 

 

I'd be just surprised if he was fired as I would be if he was extended at this point.  This season could change that.

[Koolblue13]

Ron is retired already. There is some revisionist fantasy going on in here. 

 

We were in the playoff hunt, because we relied on our terrible run game and ran the ball constantly to keep fro having our terrible QB throw the ball.

 

The first Giants game Heinicke ****ing sucked ass and the QB should have been changed then at the bye, because it was obvious that we were not a playoff team.

 

Then we came out flat as **** and our season was over and Ron didn't even realize it and tried to walk back his comment about starting Howell, but the team captains told Ron that Sam was still going to start. Heinicke did the best thing he ever did for us and refused to start and forced Rons hand to start Sam. 

 

Howells teammates knew Sam was the guy and they're vocal about it and Ron was clueless. How does that happen?