The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Chris 44]

Just now, CjSuAvE22 said:

But wasn’t that a drop on terrys part it hit him square in the hands? 

I guess its debatable, the replay clearly showed his arms being pulled back.

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, EmirOfShmo said:

Outside of the INT, I think his worst play was the 3rd down incomplete pass to Terry. Williams was split wide left & DAL defense was slow to get someone over to cover him. Howell didn't see it pre-snap & then zeroed in on Terry. There were at least 2 people open to the left (I forget who - one I think was Thomas) but Williams was probably open as well. Howell made up his mind pre-snap he was going to Terry & the pass was incomplete.

When the blitz got there in less than a 3 step drop? I'd say that is pretty heads up. Identify the blitz, go to your hot asap and don't take the sack.

[EmirOfShmo]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

When the blitz got there in less than a 3 step drop? I'd say that is pretty heads up. Identify the blitz, go to your hot asap and don't take the sack.

I'll have to re-watch but I don't remember him even looking left when Williams was splitting out wide. Both receivers to the left on slants were wide open as the DAL were out of place due to the split wide RB. 

[skinzplay]

On that play, I think Olsen went on about something that really wasn't there. Looked to me that Dallas was adjusting just before the snap.

[Koolblue13]

 

5 minutes ago, EmirOfShmo said:

I'll have to re-watch but I don't remember him even looking left when Williams was splitting out wide. Both receivers to the left on slants were wide open as the DAL were out of place due to the split wide RB. 

I'm trying to find the play. He got hit almost immediately, which I think is why Terry dropped it, but he may have just been locked on to him. Odd, since he was reading the field really well most of the game. I think he does have a habit of that from College though.

[Chump Bailey]

 

 

It’s going to be an unbearable offseason with QB talk again. There will be a Heinicke group, a Howell group, a trade up group, a sign a free agent group and everyone will be loud and obnoxious

— Nick Akridge (@PFF_NickAkridge) January 8, 2023

[EmirOfShmo]

I posted this somewhere else last night, but Finlay (& those 2 other reporters on the field) were talking on the postgame show that Heini will look elsewhere for opportunities & Logan Thomas was exchanging jerseys with teammates "while he could". I expect both to be gone.

[Koolblue13]

It really feels like everyone knows it's now Howells team (****ing Ron didn't). Heini telling coach to start him. Wentz gave him his box for his family. I can't say a bad thing about Heini or Wentz in regards to this and it really seems like this was the passing of the guard. Wentz and heini both know that they're out. This was just such a cool moment for us as a team. 

 

 

[kingdaddy]

53 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I think we all watched the game.  Howell did some good things but did you see anything that got you really excited?  Given the hit rate of 5th round QBs I think 99% is not that unreasonable.  

I saw some things that got me excited:

1. throws a nice deep ball

2. had a decent pocket presence, especially given the Dallas pass rush

3. he's a good runner who can take a hit.

4. his teammates played hard for him, even with nothing to gain.

5. showed pretty good accuracy for the most part.

 

[DWinzit]

Howell was supposed to be our starter if the team selected the Wolves not the Commanders...😊

 

I am worried Howells positive showing will leave Ron believing Turner and Howell are a great match, no need to change OC's.

[FootballZombie]

I think Howell only had one turnover worthy play, the actual turnover

 

 

MAYBE two if I am being unfairly picky and count that outside scramble where he didn't throw the ball away and a Parsons got an oppo to rip the ball.

 

 

That's pretty good for your first game.

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, kingdaddy said:

I saw some things that got me excited:

1. throws a nice deep ball

2. had a decent pocket presence, especially given the Dallas pass rush

3. he's a good runner who can take a hit.

4. his teammates played hard for him, even with nothing to gain.

5. showed pretty good accuracy for the most part.

 

I can think of two drops that would make his numbers look even better too. That deep ball to Dotson and a ball to Terry on third down. Those two would put him over 200 yards. Plus we have the ability to run read option plays with him which can help his growth in the league since he is willing to run with it. And I love that the WRs were catching slants in stride and getting YAC. 

[Skinsinparadise]

As for Howell, I do agree one game doesn't make a QB, so if people want to pause on that, sure.  And yes there were downs with the ups.  I like what I saw but of course I'd still bring in competition but i wouldn't go crazy.   I was torn about a cheap alternative like Brissett versus doing something more aggressive like Jimmy G in FA.  But that game tipped the balance for me to go cheap.  And maybe double down and find QB #3 in the draft like a Jake Haener.  

 

The back and forth for me in my mind about what to do is driven by I think this is a win now roster.  This defense is win now.  The weapons are win now.  Yeah we can add depth but what team doesn't have depth issues somewhere?  To me its about O line first and foremost.  And elevating the QB play from bad to at least average.  I am not the only dude who thinks this is a really good roster as I mentioned Cooley is a fan of the roster, said with Daniel Jones like QB, it could contend for a SB.  I do think they obviously need to add O lineman, too.   I think Chris Paul played well yesterday from what I saw but have to rewatch.

 

As for Howell, I think context matters both in terms of his college career and what he had against him yesterday.

 

A.  Howell I ranked as my 3rd favorite QB in that draft, we did a top 100 on the draft board and the #2 QB I ranked just one spot in that top 100 above Howell.  What I liked about him was his mental toughness, deep ball and he can make some wicked hard throws, deep outs, etc.  What got me jazzed but also I paused about was his mobility.   He likes to run up the A gap and I wondered if that would translate in the NFL.  We saw yesterday all of those qualities on display including his mobility. 

 

If that was the first time I watched Howell, I'd have more pause but much of what we saw yesterday, showed flashes of peak North Carolina Howell. 

 

B.  He didn't have Robinson-Gibson.  He has a backup left guard making his debut.  This O line according to ex-player observers stink at helping QBs with protections.  Add Scott Turner isn't a hot player caller.  Add a hostile crowd of Dallas fans.    Add the best pass rush in the league who has feasted off this team in recent years.   And he still played well.  Dotson and Terry had rare drops otherwise his numbers would have been better.

 

I get not being giddy about the performance but I think for those who dove deep into the QB class, I probably watched at least 6 Howell games twice, and I along with some others here watched a ton of the QBs in that class, too that year -- you saw enough yesterday IMO of vintage Howell, to give some hope for next season. 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I get not being giddy about the performance

 

If you've been a fan of this team for longer than 1 second, I don't understand how you are not giddy about that performance.  There is no reason to not go into next season with Howell as QB1.  Re-sign Heinicke as the backup and you can worry about QB3 later.

[kingdaddy]

This offseason just got very interesting given the win yesterday with Howell as the starting QB. I think he showed enough to potentially be pretty good, likely a guy we can win with assuming he's gonna get better and better as he learns the system and the league. IF we roll with him we should be able to afford to keep Payne and sign others to really shore up some holes given Howell's being on a 5th round rookie contract. 

Who we bring in to compliment him will be very important. Do you keep TH just to help Howell along as the perfect team guy who's not a real threat to supplant him? Or do you bring in someone like Brissett or maybe Bridgewater to possibly compete to start? These coaches can't afford to **** this up again. Howell is their pick who they've had a year now to look at and coach up, they need to make the right call this offseason.

[CjSuAvE22]

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

If you've been a fan of this team for longer than 1 second, I don't understand how you are not giddy about that performance.  There is no reason to not go into next season with Howell as QB1.  Re-sign Heinicke as the backup and you can worry about QB3 later.

Heinicke wont be signing to be a back up imo.

[Chump Bailey]

Just now, CjSuAvE22 said:

Heinicke wont be signing to be a back up imo.

 

He should prepare to be disappointed in that case.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

If you've been a fan of this team for longer than 1 second, I don't understand how you are not giddy about that performance.  There is no reason to not go into next season with Howell as QB1.  Re-sign Heinicke as the backup and you can worry about QB3 later.

 

OK my post was a plug of Howell.  If you think i am not enthusiastic enough, wow considering all the praise I've been leveling at him leading into this week and to some extent in the past, and I need to be giddy, OK, cool enough. 😉

 

I think the opposite by the way about your comment of being a fan of this team for longer than 1 second, we've certainly seen flashes from some of our other young QBs, some of whom faded.  But with Howell, I have more confidence that this is different.   I like his skill set more, mindset and work ethic by a mile over Haskins (RIP) for example (who ended his rookie year on a high).  

 

As far as you pushing Heinicke.   For me only if Turner is back which I hope doesn't happen.  Otherwise I hope to see Heinicke play elsewhere.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinsfan66]

3 hours ago, SonnySideUp said:

I thought Sam looked really good in his pre-season game and by most reports has looked very strong in practices all season as well. Also, in spite of what I thought was terrible playcalling by Turner in the Dallas game he looked sharp for someone playing in let alone starting as QB his first in season game. His first pass being a touchdown reminded me of Clinton Portis' first play as a Commanderskin. It was the first play of the game and he ran from scrimmage to end zone for a TD. He later said that Joe Gibbs told him after the play "Clinton, that was perfect!"

 

So what if he had an interception? He threw for a TD, also ran for a TD and was quite mobile. He also threw some nice long balls. I think he would have looked even sharper if Turner had called plays that made better use of his skills.

 

We're right back in the QB hell we always seem to be in and Sam is the only bright spot we have at the moment. I think we have to work like heck over the offseason to develop him into the starter. We still will need to draft another QB though if we can do so without spending all the draft picks we need for other positions. I think we might even bring TH back as back-up QB if we can get him cheaply enough. He has a great attitude, wants to be here, the team responds well to him and he is likely no worse than others in his price range. I don't know how he'd do if we have a different OC though.

 

The point is, if you don't make him the starter, the alternatives are not plentiful or attractive as I will show below. The FA list for QB's is thin again in terms of quality this year and the draft is only a few months away. As of week 17, the NFL reportedly had 64 different QB starts for the year. That speaks to QB performance (and lack thereof) and durability (and lack thereof). There's going to be a lot of teams chasing better, healthier, younger, QB's and will be willing to spend a lot of money and/or draft picks to get them. Sam is already here, signed to a rookie deal and we have a least a small picture of what kind of QB he is. And..that picture is not at all a bad one, quite the opposite. He looks pretty darned good so far.

 

So we keep him for a year as the starter. Could he be worse than Haskins, Kyle Allen, Wentz, Fitz or TH turned out to be? We can already pretty much tell that he's better than TH and TH was at least serviceable. If you don't think Sam is the solution, who do you think is? Giving up the store for enough picks for a marque QB in the draft? Or take a look at the list of QB FA's below and see who on that list would be a better solution than making Sam the guy. Darnold? Jones? JG? Brissett? Mayfield? How many Wentz II's are on that list. Oh, and I hear that Cam Newton is still available.  

 

I agree with those who don't trust the current coaching staff to handle this situation properly this offseason (including trusting Turner to utilize the starter properly if he returns next season). I thought his playcalling against Dallas was terrible, as usual. I am hoping that we will have a new OC next season at a minimum but don't know how realistic that hope is. If the coaching staff stays the same, then I say Sam is QB1, keep TH as backup (if not too expensive) and draft a QB. Hopefully, by 2024 we have a totally new owner, FO and coaching staff. 

 

Here's the list of QB's who will be FA's 2023. Who on this list do you think is either REALLY worth going after as a starter or that we'd have a chance at in lieu of using Sam at that position? At least we didn't get suckered into shooting a wad of cash at flameout Russell Wilson like Denver did (and we almost certainly tried to do). Jackson is the only one on that list i think is worthy of going after as a starter and the Ravens aren't likely to let him even get close to the FA market. JG would be in some sort of cast by game four. 

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/which-quarterbacks-make-top-nfl-free-agents-2023

 

 

Here’s a list of all 37 ranked by their 2022 average annual value, via Spotrac: 

 

• Tom Brady (45), Tampa Bay Buccaneers: $15 million – UFA
• Baker Mayfield (27), Los Angeles Rams: $8.1 million – UFA
• Sam Darnold (25), Carolina Panthers: $7.5 million – UFA
• Jimmy Garoppolo (31), San Francisco 49ers: $7 million – UFA
• Teddy Bridgewater (30), Miami Dolphins: $6.5 million – UFA
• Daniel Jones (25), New York Giants: $6.4 million – UFA
• Case Keenum (34), Buffalo Bills: $6 million – UFA
• Mason Rudolph (27), Pittsburgh Steelers: $5.08 million – UFA
• Jacoby Brissett (30), Cleveland Browns: $4.6 million – UFA
• Geno Smith (32), Seattle Seahawks: $3.5 million – UFA
• Joe Flacco (37), New York Jets: $3.5 million – UFA
• Andy Dalton (35), New Orleans Saints: $3 million – UFA
• Mike White (27), New York Jets: $2.5 million – UFA
• C.J. Beathard (29), Jacksonville Jaguars: $2.5 million – UFA
• Kyle Allen (26), Houston Texans: $2.5 million – UFA
• Taylor Heinicke (29), Washington Commanders: $2.3 million – UFA
• Lamar Jackson (25), Baltimore Ravens: $2.3 million – UFA
• Blaine Gabbert (33), Tampa Bay Buccaneers: $2.2 million – UFA
• Chase Daniel (36), Los Angeles Chargers: $2 million – UFA
• Chad Henne (37), Kansas City Chiefs: $2 million – UFA
• Nick Mullens (27), Minnesota Vikings: $2 million – UFA
• Drew Lock (26), Seattle Seahawks: $1.7 million – UFA
• Brandon Allen (30), Cincinnati Bengals: $1.5 million – UFA
• Josh Johnson (36), San Francisco 49ers: $1.1 million – UFA
• Nate Sudfeld (29), Detroit Lions: $1.03 million – UFA
• Nathan Peterman (28), Chicago Bears: $1.03 million – UFA
• Cooper Rush (29), Dallas Cowboys: $977,500 – UFA
• Brett Rypien (26), Denver Broncos: $965,000 – UFA
• Tyler Huntley (24), Baltimore Ravens: $895,000 – RFA
• John Wolford (27), Los Angeles Rams: $895,000 – RFA
• Phillip Walker (27), Carolina Panthers: $895,000 – RFA
• Trace McSorley (27), Arizona Cardinals: $850,000 – UFA
• Jarrett Stidham (26), Las Vegas Raiders: $788,423 – UFA
• Bryce Perkins (25), Los Angeles Rams: $742,500 – ERFA
• Easton Stick (27), Los Angeles Chargers: $699,391 – UFA
• Gardner Minshew (26), Philadelphia Eagles: $677,721 – UFA
• Shane Buechele (24), Kansas City Chiefs: $660,000 – ERFA

Taylor looks like a bargain at on that list and he is a backup.  Sign Mike White and throw in the mix with Howell? Draft a no.1 from Florida with a 53% pass comp? Draft a lower QB and throw in mix.  sign one of the top castsoffs for 30mil plus. 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

 

Who we bring in to compliment him will be very important. Do you keep TH just to help Howell along as the perfect team guy who's not a real threat to supplant him? Or do you bring in someone like Brissett or maybe Bridgewater to possibly compete to start? These coaches can't afford to **** this up again. Howell is their pick who they've had a year now to look at and coach up, they need to make the right call this offseason.

 

Howell, Brissett and Haener would be my vote right now.  Brissett is a good teammate reputation wise and if gets beat in camp, he reputation wise isn't the type to make a stink. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Chris 44]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK my post was a plug of Howell.  If you think i am not enthusiastic enough, wow considering all the praise I've been leveling at him leading into this week and to some extent in the past, and I need to be giddy, OK, cool enough. 😉

 

I think the opposite by the way about your comment of being a fan of this team for longer than 1 second, we've certainly seen flashes from some of our other young QBs, some of whom faded.  But with Howell, I have more confidence that this is different.   I like his skill set more, mindset and work ethic by a mile over Haskins (RIP) for example (who ended his rookie year on a high). 

 

As far as you pushing Heinicke.   For me only if Turner is back which I hope doesn't happen.  Otherwise I hope to see Heinicke play elsewhere.

This may be my imagination...but it has not appeared like Ron or Turner are particularly pleased that Howell has emerged as the starter, understandably so. Wentz was their pick to start, big contract, gave up draft capital. Heineke was the chosen back up of Turners, could execute his system better than anyone else. Reluctantly went to Howell after the two that were hand picked not did not work out. Is it a slight to Ron / Turner that the 5th round rookie outplayed them in the last game of the year? Pretty sure Howell was drafted to firmly be the #3, to sit and learn. Im not insinuating that they did not want Howell to do well but it has to be a bit of a blow to the ego.

[Koolblue13]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Add the best pass rush in the league

 

That would be the Eagles by a large margin and it's not close. They were historic this year. 3rd most ever, 1rst team with 4 10+ sack guys and Hasson Reddick had a better year than Parsons. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

34 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I saw some things that got me excited:

1. throws a nice deep ball

2. had a decent pocket presence, especially given the Dallas pass rush

3. he's a good runner who can take a hit.

4. his teammates played hard for him, even with nothing to gain.

5. showed pretty good accuracy for the most part.

 

 

I agree with all of this. And the reaction from desperate fans is completely understandable  Just wish we had more to go on, how many fell in love with TH and proclaimed him as the possible answer after his first game?  I'm just being cautious and realistic, there is a very good chance Sam Howell is not a viable option.

 

But at this point I'm fine rolling with Howell and a cheap vet, if they waste more draft capital on a retread QB I will be frustrated.  And if it fails then you draft a QB next season, possibly with a higher pick.  

 

Sad what happened to Logan Thomas.  We thought they had a steal after his first season, perhaps it's the injury.   Never thought they would get next to nothing from both Thomas and McKissic this year.  

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

This may be my imagination...but it has not appeared like Ron or Turner are particularly pleased that Howell has emerged as the starter, understandably so. Wentz was their pick to start, big contract, gave up draft capital. Heineke was the chosen back up of Turners, could execute his system better than anyone else. Reluctantly went to Howell after the two that were hand picked not did not work out. Is it a slight to Ron / Turner that the 5th round rookie outplayed them in the last game of the year? Pretty sure Howell was drafted to firmly be the #3, to sit and learn. Im not insinuating that they did not want Howell to do well but it has to be a bit of a blow to the ego.

 

Keim said they were high on Howell before the draft and would have considered him in the 2nd round if they didn't make a move for Wentz.  Even with Wentz in the fold they couldn't resist taking Howell when he kept falling.   Howell himself said he spent a lot of time with this coaching staff pre-draft and this is the place he wanted to go.

 

I think Howell succeeding would save Rivera's job if anything, if its on the line.   The best way to overcome screwing up on Wentz, is yeah that was a mistake but we got it right with Howell.    They wanted Howell, he wasn't foisted on them.

 

It's like killing the Seahawks for overspending on Matt Flynn and then Russell Wilson ending up the guy.  As a Seahawks fan, I wouldn't care about Flynn.

 

As I've said here multiple times, I love Howie Roseman's take on the process which he laid out years ago, its very very very hard to find a Qb, you will make mistakes, so keep taking shots and don't dwell or double down on the mistakes.  Roseman drafted Foles.  He traded for Bradford.  He signed a ridiculous contract for Chase Daniel.  He traded up for Wentz and it ultimately blew up on him.  And he drafted Hurts.   The sausage making was ugly but it ended well.  

 

I don't care who our FO is, I don't want to crap on them for throwing multiple darts at the draft board and killing them for darts missing along the way.  That's how I want them to roll.  Try different things, be fearless, ignore fan wrath, that's the right approach IMO.  Doubling down with Jason Campbell or RG3 or name that QB who is struggiling for too long, just wastes time (unless you like what you see from said QB and there is contect to their struggles), and its how this franchise has rolled.  Yuck. 

 

We don't know yet if Howell is the right guy, I think he has a good chance, will see.  But I don't care at all about what misses they had in the process, I like the process a lot.  If people want to give a hard time to Rivera for misses for whatever reason, I am OK with that, but I'll defend the process of throwing darts.  It's taken me a long time to get here but I want to keep shooting at the QB spot until we find that guy, versus being patient, I expect some misses, but I want a FO who doesn't double down on them and takes multiple shots.  And there is nuance to my point, for example if we draft the first QB in the draft and he's an insane talent, yeah take your time but as for QB's with questionable skills-work ethic, etc -- either move on or if you want to hedge your bets draft competition.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Darrell Green Fan]

Agree with the last post. Just keep drafting QBs and hope you hit on one. But not 5th round QBs, the odds are just too long. And no reaches in the 1st either.