The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FLSkinz83]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

O line's ranked in the division by PFF, ours climbed up in recent weeks I recall it was in the mid to late 20s early on.

 

ESPN has us ranked 10th in run blocking win rate and 26th in pass blocking.  

[Skinsinparadise]

For Lamar Jackson and the Ravens, a trade might be the only way out

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/23/lamar-jackson-contract-baltimore-ravens/

All of it makes one wonder where this years-long contract saga is headed, and there are no shortage of opinions about that eagerly awaited endgame. In the short term, nothing has changed, in the estimation of executives, contract negotiators and agents who are paying close attention to the situation. The Ravens will place an exclusive rights franchise tag on Jackson early in the offseason (projected to be in the neighborhood of $45 million fully guaranteed), and if the sides cannot come to a long-term deal by April — I’d be quite surprised if they did — then prepare for Lamar Jackson Trade Rumor Szn to be in full force as we head toward the draft.

“He has as much leverage now as ever,” said one NFL personnel executive whose team faced the Ravens this season and who knows their roster well. (He spoke on the condition of anonymity because he is not permitted to speak freely about other teams.) “Not playing is the best thing for him for the contract. They can’t score without him. That’s not a great team. That’s not a great roster. But they win a lot of games because of him.”

 

...Jackson’s game has not hit a new level — and given the meager cast around him it’s hard to project a takeoff when he does return from his knee injury. But the larger reality is while few of the big 2022 quarterback deals are bearing much fruit, they altered the marketplace. Russell Wilson, Derek Carr, Aaron Rodgers and Watson have not distinguished themselves, but none have the attributes Jackson does, and the cost of quarterback salaries never decreases.

 

 

The price point for a deal remains around $50 million a season, according to those I’ve caucused, and Jackson will almost certainly seek record guarantees. Owner Steve Bisciotti was unwilling to entertain such a deal last year, and he publicly described winning a Super Bowl as the goal for Jackson to achieve such a contract. It’s doubtful his stance has changed much with this offense ranking 24th in scoring since Week 4, 31st in passing yards, tied for 31st in passing touchdowns and dead last in yards per pass in that span.

Having a quarterback of this stature, still this young, playing on the franchise tag is generally a losing proposition for the team, to say nothing of a $45 million cap figure that would complicate roster construction. A trade may be the only way out. In fact, that projects as a less surprising outcome by the week.

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

ESPN has us ranked 10th in run blocking win rate and 26th in pass blocking.  

 

Makes sense, some who have studied this offense have said, good at run blocking, not hot at pass blocking. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He thinks if he has a bad half, they give him one more drive in the 2nd half and if that doesn't go well he thinks we will see Wentz

Which would be massively unfair to Wentz. If he also struggles, then he’s going to also get crushed. And he hasn’t played in months and is going to face the same rush.  
 

And Ron will have to pick between them for the Cleveland game.

 

I think if Ron goes into this game with TH he has to ride it out with TH for better or worse and then make a change for Cleveland. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Cooley right now.

 

I gave Heinicke a bit of an out on the first fumble because it seemed to happen so fast.

 

But among other things Cooley agrees with @KDawg among others about Heinicke's first fumble, in short he puts some blame on him, said some QBs would feel that pressure, and he had a shot to get that ball out and even if not you can't keep fumbiling when you get hit. 

 

Cooley thinks the margin of error is thin with an offense like this that can't score, you can't also spot the opposing offense.

 

He was impressed with Brian Robinson, saying the Giants paid extra guys on the line of scrimmage throhgout the game to stop the run and Robinson ran anyway.

 

About half way through the podcast.   

[Koolblue13]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think they got no shot agaiinst SF.  I think the beat the Browns.  And the last week is do or die versus Dallas.

 

Feels like 2016 season round 2 where they play a division rival who likely plays with nothing at stake but they enjoy knocking this team out of the playoffs anyway. 

 

I think the Lions and Seattle lose a game so that leaves that last week as the deciding game.  I bet they flex it to Sunday Night.  And my gut is the Cowboys defense suffocates Heinicke and the offense and we lose lets say 20-10.

 

Heinicke, judging by his rhetoric last season seems intimidated by the Cowboys defense.   I don't think I've ever seen a Washington player so effusive about another unit on another team, Heinicke's gushing about Dallas' defense gives the vibe to say that he sees them on the Bears 85 elite level.    I was a bit annoyed as I recall @Koolblue13 was last season reading his comments about the Cowboys -- you'd think he was saying we were Apollo going against Drago in Rocky 4 where we had no chance.

Heini will play looser than you with the Rocky references which I take personal.

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, zCommander said:

I have a great idea! Just roll with Howell than Love or anyone else for that matter for the 23 season. 

Here’s the problem: this team is poised to win and make runs into the playoffs for the next 3-4 years.  You can’t waste the McLaurin contract and the time you still have young players waiting for a QB to develop.  
 

They need a solution. They can’t roll with Howell or Heinicke and hope.  Hope is not a strategy. 

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Cooley right now.

 

I gave Heinicke a bit of an out on the first fumble because it seemed to happen so fast.

 

But among other things Cooley agrees with @KDawg among others about Heinicke's first fumble, in short he puts some blame on him, said some QBs would feel that pressure, and he had a shot to get that ball out and even if not you can't keep fumbiling when you get hit. 

 

Cooley thinks the margin of error is thin with an offense like this that can't score, you can't also spot the opposing offense.

 

He was impressed with Brian Robinson, saying the Giants paid extra guys on the line of scrimmage throhgout the game to stop the run and Robinson ran anyway.

 

About half way through the podcast.   

The first fumble is certainly less egregious on Heinicke’s end, simply due to the fact that multiple people executed their specific jobs poorly. 
 

Center - what responsibility does he have to call out the edge rush, adjust protection?

 

QB - What responsibility sides he have to call out the edge rush, adjust protections, do what he can to limit the pressure, throw hot, not fumble when the rush comes?

 

LT - not sure what he was even attempting to do there.

 

OC - Empty on that spot in the field versus a pressure defense is a mistake. Period.

 

The second fumble Heinicke just fumbled. Yes, there was a touch of pressure. But Heinicke had that ball tucked and managed to let it out of his possession.

 

Love the point about how a bad offense can’t have mistakes. Totally agree and it’s something I’m saying. If, say, Josh Allen makes those same mistakes they still hurt. But he’s such a dynamic and highly skilled QB it’s one of those situations where you say, “damn, he needs to be better. But I know he can put some points on the board anyways” and move on.

 

Heinicke does it and it’s, “oh ****. This game is over.”

Edited December 23, 2022 by KDawg

[kingdaddy]

25 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Which would be massively unfair to Wentz. If he also struggles, then he’s going to also get crushed. And he hasn’t played in months and is going to face the same rush.  
 

And Ron will have to pick between them for the Cleveland game.

 

I think if Ron goes into this game with TH he has to ride it out with TH for better or worse and then make a change for Cleveland. 

RR has already committed to TH over a now healthy Wentz so if a change is going to be made from TH I hope it's to Howell. Would be nice to see what he brings to the table heading into, free agency, new ownership and the draft. It shouldn't be "playoffs or bust" for this team where they're unlikely to make any noise given their QB struggles. Taking a look at Howell in the last two games seems like it would be the more responsible move going forward. 

If the coaches don't think Wentz is good enough to insert over TH in the middle of a playoff push then you'd have to think that ship has sailed? If so, bring in the kid.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

said some QBs would feel that pressure

Especially when you didn’t see him lined up unblocked nor feel the pressure from the exact same dude, in almost the exact same part of the field, the last game they played.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Love the point about how a bad offense can’t have mistakes. Totally agree and it’s something I’m saying. If, say, Josh Allen makes those same mistakes they still hurt. But he’s such a dynamic and highly skilled QB it’s one of those situations where you say, “damn, he needs to be better. But I know he can put some points on the board anyways” and move on.

 

Heinicke does it and it’s, “oh ****. This game is over.”

 

Yeah that's basically his thesis.  He's really down on Heinicke's propensity to fumble which he's had his share of late, not just in the last game.    He basically said you can not struggle to move the ball in the air AND spot the other team points -- its impossible to win that way, its hard enough the way they do it without the turnovers. 

 

He also goes the SF do turnovers well.  If Heinicke makes those some plays versus SF, that's a 4 turnover game. 

21 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Heini will play looser than you with the Rocky references which I take personal.

 

Speaking of Rocky 4, if you haven't seen the new version of the movie, recut by Stallone, on Amazon Prime, you should.  It's great.  😀

Edited December 23, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Especially when you didn’t see him lined up unblocked nor feel the pressure from the exact same dude, in almost the exact same part of the field, the last game they played.

 

Cooley was really harsh on Taylor on that for two reasons.

 

A.  He thinks it could have been avoided.  

 

B. He thinks that was the game.

[Skinsinparadise]

More Cooley

 

He said its a sluggish offense. The tempo is slow.  they take too much time to snap the ball, always about the same amount of time which makes it easier to get a beat on it. 

 

Graded Heinicke a D plus.

 

Gave Scott Turner a D.

 

He thinks Heinicke needs to run against SF otherwise Bosa will tee off and get some fumble recoveries.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He said its a sluggish offense. The tempo is slow.  they take too much time to snap the ball, always about the same amount of time which makes it easier to get a beat on it. 

This is true, but it’s the same plodding style we adopted in an effort to play keep away from the opposing offense, back when Heinicke first took over.

 

It’s not a surprise to me that it’s not sustainable though, not without a QB that can make the defense pay from time to time.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This is true, but it’s the same plodding style we adopted in an effort to play keep away from the opposing offense, back when Heinicke first took over.

 

It’s not a surprise to me that it’s not sustainable though, not without a QB that can make the defense pay from time to time.

 

I know its a catch 22 about eating clock.  He said the passing offense/scheme is incrediibly simple and basic.    It feels like he was struggiling to decide who to blame for that.

 

I'll say at a minimum since this is the QB thread, he's down on how Heinicke is playing. 

 

He does like the running game.  He thinks Robinson is just getting better.  The Giants sold out to stop the run and big time so, yet they ran on them anyway.  He's amazed how they can move the ball on the ground considering they got no passing offense. 

 

I know from other segments, it was either Cooley or Paulsen who said its the running game is hard to stop when they go high tempo.  

 

Digesting now the full podcast, feels like Cooley's criticism of Turner is not exploiting the loaded boxes the Giants used in the passing game while also implying they don't seem to trust Taylor much. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

Cooley has been critical of Turner since 2020.   

 

Just listened to the podcast and I basically agreed with everything he said, except for his criticism of the first fumble.

 

He was harping on TH's fumbling problem, but it's only been the past 2 games.   He has 6 total fumbles in 8 games and considering the pass pro; that ain't bad.

 

I think they need to find a balance between tempo and going slow....Maybe you do it for one series per half?   maybe you just do it for a few plays per series?   I dunno....

 

 

[GoDeep81]

Wait, so if Wentz gets in and gets hurt, we're on the hook for that stupid contract?? That's a game changer for me.. Oof. 

[Conn]

6 fumbles in 8 games “ain’t bad”? lol that’s tremendously bad. Like Daniel Jones at his absolute worst type bad, and that is his calling card in terms of negatives. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Conn

[Skinsinparadise]

Jay Gruden on Standig's podcast and kudos for Standig for keeping at Jay to answer questions about what he'd do next season at QB, it forced Jay to expound, they hit the topic for awhile.  Typically coaches and even ex-coaches give short shrift to global off season questions.  

 

What does Jay think?

 

A.  He's not high on the veteran off season possibilities unless Rodgers is let loose or Derek Carr.  He's really high on Carr I know from other podcasts.  

 

B.  He didn't really bite on Brissett, and his old QB Andy Dalton, Baker and some other QBs Standig threw at him.  Seemed like his point was they aren't enough of an upgrade to endure the first year pains of a QB learning a system.

 

C.  He's really down on a new QB including veteran (again with the exception of Rodgers and Carr) mastering an offense in year 1.   he said its really year 2 when they start to get it.

 

D.  His strategy would be to keep either Heinicke or Wentz, not both.  For Wentz he said at that money he better be an alpha male-leader -- feels like he was politely saying he'd let Wentz go albeit he didn't flat out say it.

 

E.  He'd take a QB in the draft.  Suggested keep doing it and those teams that hit it in the draft are set.  He was not against throwing another veteran in the mix but felt like he'd keep 1 of the veterans and draft another QB.  They didn't talk about Howell. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Here’s the problem: this team is poised to win and make runs into the playoffs for the next 3-4 years.  You can’t waste the McLaurin contract and the time you still have young players waiting for a QB to develop.  
 

They need a solution. They can’t roll with Howell or Heinicke and hope.  Hope is not a strategy. 

 

I think you are wrong in your way of thinking. Howell has been here learning for a whole year and if he is the guy you have to go with him. He was projected to go in the first round and there is a value in that rather than spending on yet another castaway. Who says he is going to waste away Terry's years.

 

Maybe he will make him and others super stars instead. He is accurate and is tough and mobile. He has all the traits you want in a QB. You are not going to get that lucky again.

[FLSkinz83]

14 minutes ago, Conn said:

6 fumbles in 8 games “ain’t bad”? lol that’s tremendously bad. Like Daniel Jones at his absolute worst type bad, and that is his calling card in terms of negatives. 

 

It ain't great, but it's not egregious.   Go look at the QB fumble stats.

 

He only had 7 fumbles in 16 games last year and 2 in the first 6 games this year...9 fumbles in his first 22 and 4 in his last 2

[KDawg]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Jay Gruden on Standig's podcast and kudos for Standig for keeping at Jay to answer questions about what he'd do next season at QB, it forced Jay to expound, they hit the topic for awhile.  Typically coaches and even ex-coaches give short shrift to global off season questions.  

 

What does Jay think?

 

A.  He's not high on the veteran off season possibilities unless Rodgers is let loose or Derek Carr.  He's really high on Carr I know from other podcasts.  

 

B.  He didn't really bite on Brissett, and his old QB Andy Dalton, Baker and some other QBs Standig threw at him.  Seemed like his point was they aren't enough of an upgrade to endure the first year pains of a QB learning a system.

 

C.  He's really down on a new QB including veteran (again with the exception of Rodgers and Carr) mastering an offense in year 1.   he said its really year 2 when they start to get it.

 

D.  His strategy would be to keep either Heinicke or Wentz, not both.  For Wentz he said at that money he better be an alpha male-leader -- feels like he was politely saying he'd let Wentz go albeit he didn't flat out say it.

 

E.  He'd take a QB in the draft.  Suggested keep doing it and those teams that hit it in the draft are set.  He was not against throwing another veteran in the mix but felt like he'd keep 1 of the veterans and draft another QB.  They didn't talk about Howell. 

I just have this feeling that we’re going to have Anthony Richardson on this team somehow. Unless they get Howell in and he’s ultra impressive. 

[Skinsinparadise]

most fumbles for QBs ranked, Wentz was bad too but only lost 1.    Taylor though didn't play for the first 6 games, imagine if he did?  he played less and in some cases much less than everyone ahead of him on that list. 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[skins island connection]

If TH is benched then there's only one way to go with it; Howell.

 

If they end up starting Wentz its gonna piss off alot of fans because everyone knows he's a statue in the backfield. He's lost any and all abilities to feel pressure, lost his ability to scramble and thats not a good recipe for an aggressive defense in SF.  Mobility, roll-outs and scrambling to extend plays are the only ways to do any damage, and Wentz just doesn't have it.

Yea he has a big arm but thats useless when he's flat on his back.

 

Turner needs to stop falling behind in the game; he keeps force-feeding moronic jet sweeps which are not gonna fool SF one bit, and especially stop running all the time on 1st downs. Thats not setting up anyone for success and just puts the pressure on the QB.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I just have this feeling that we’re going to have Anthony Richardson on this team somehow. Unless they get Howell in and he’s ultra impressive. 

 

Maybe.  My gut is Jimmy G.  But I'd be cool with Richardson as long as its not a give up the store trade up. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

29 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I think you are wrong in your way of thinking. Howell has been here learning for a whole year and if he is the guy you have to go with him. He was projected to go in the first round and there is a value in that rather than spending on yet another castaway. Who says he is going to waste away Terry's years.

 

Maybe he will make him and others super stars instead. He is accurate and is tough and mobile. He has all the traits you want in a QB. You are not going to get that lucky again.

But he didn't go in the first round, he went in the fifth for a reason.  After he was fully scouted, he ended up as a 5th round pick.  At last check, Ron and Scott said he was still working on footwork and tying footwork to his drops and routes.  Translation: he isn't ready.

 

Regardless, there is absolutely no way they can go into next season with Howell as the primary option having not played at all this year.  

 

With any luck, TH will be on another team and won't be an option.   My hope is somebody else pays him $20m for 2 years to be a bridge QB, and he takes it.  Whichever team does that will regret it after the first OTA practice, but that's not really my problem.  As long as he's not here, I don't care where he is.

 

Personally, and I think everybody is going to freak out about this, but I think the absolute most likely scenario is they bring back Wentz on a re-structured deal, and then explore Carr also.  With the idea that Wentz would be the bridge guy if they couldn't find somebody better. 

 

The reason is simple: they couldn't get their top prospects to come here last season.  What's to think they would this off-season?  They need at least Wentz as a floor.  

 

I think they're going to go hard after OL help in the off-season as well.  Most likely Dan isn't the owner.  That should help Ron get higher-level talent to come here.  If the floor is Wentz in the second year of the system with a better OL.  

 

TH is dreadful, and they can't plan for him to be part of the mix.  He needs to be on another roster ASAP.