The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Stone Cold]

I’m not for wasting draft capital on a qb until we’ve given Howell the keys.  Not as long as we have 4 on the roster.  4s play is the ultimate luxury…a guy who knows his role, embraces it and plays like he’s just happy for the chance.  He CAN direct the ship for a season…we have seen it.  What we don’t know, and won’t until he’s given the opportunity NEXT year (don’t want him on the field at all if possible this season) is what can Sam Howell do if he’s better than 4 in camp.  
 

no draft capital on QB.  Stack picks and continue to build depth at positions like lb, ol & cb.  I absolutely do not want to have another draft pick sitting and developing right now.  
 

we use the 1st on a day 1 starter at a position of impact.  I like LB here this year.  We don’t have the luxury of a day 1 wait and see guy.  Y’all can have the FL kid…I’ll gladly eat crow if he turns a franchise around before Sam Howell wins a playoff game.  

Edited December 7, 2022 by Stone Cold

[Warhead36]

23 minutes ago, fearlessNelms said:

Tom Brady was a 6th round pick and threw 3 passes for 1 completion as a rookie in 2000. He took over as the starter early in 2001 after Bledsoe was injured and the rest is history. Sam Howell was a 5th round pick who is more than likely not going to see the field as a rookie- big deal. By no stretch am I saying that Howell is going to be Tom Brady or even close. I'm just saying that by him not playing as a rookie is not going to make me think he stinks and that he doesn't have a future as at least a solid starter in the NFL.

How about comparing him to every other mid to late round pick instead of the literal greatest ever?

[CommDownMan]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

It wasn't "trained out of him", he stopped doing it on his own. The coaches wanted TH to run and use his legs more and said so publicly last season. He just doesn't really do it. I assume he's concerned about getting hurt now perhaps.

 

 They wanted him to take his time and work through his reads.  Saying they want him to run more, while also telling him to be more patient and go through progressions, does lead to something losing out.  You could be right that just injury related, he could be projecting himself.  Ultimately, it's clear he has his limitations- if they tell him to improve arm strength, playing tall, running and pocket presence, it's not going to work in all areas.  If they really wanted him to run more, encouraging him after this quote didn't help that mentality.  I'm sure there are more quotes for both directions, but I don't think he did this all on his own.  

 

https://www.commanders.com/news/taylor-heinicke-work-as-a-pocket-passer-paying-off

 

"The biggest thing for me is to have my legs be my last option," Heinicke said. "I really try and get the ball to those playmakers ... If things break down, then my legs can be a checkdown."

...........................

"If you look at the touchdown, [it] was a perfect example of him being patient and going through his progression," Rivera said. "I think that's something that has really helped him and you see it helping him in terms of his development."

[Skinsinparadise]

As for Taylor not using his legs, the fact that they run read option here and there and Taylor hardly ever keeps the ball hence defenses don't bite IMO according to Keim among others -- smokes out Taylor doesn't want to run.  You don't run read option while telling the QB not to keep the ball -- the whole point is for the Qb to make a judgment call as to whether to hand off or keep it. 

 

Taylor himself referenced after the Atlanta game that on rewatch he had opportunities to run the ball which he should have taken. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[NewCliche21]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The wildcard for most college QBs among other thing is can they read defenses and learn the pro scheme fast. I don't know about that as to Haener.  But I do know talent wise he looks like an upgraded version of Taylor.  And for those that love Taylor's style of play -- this IMO is the current college version of it.  Mobility in the pocket, tough, gritty, playmaker, moxie on steroids.  I talked about him a lot in the QB thread last year but alas he decided not to come out in that draft. 

 

 

 

 

Okay, ignorant question, but would we go backwards from Heine to Haener (obviously not with vowel count or consonants) if he just handed over the keys? Like this is Taylor after years, is this guy's ceiling the same as Taylor's or would he be an actual upgrade?

[Koolblue13]

It's amazing how many different ways we all see the same subpar QB play the game. 

[NoCalMike]

I think too sometimes people confuse being mobile with being a "running threat" at QB.   Even earlier in this season Wentz was sometimes taking off on scrambles and gaining positive yards.  It wasn't like he was unable to do it in certain situations, but I wouldn't call him mobile at all (at least not since his injuries).  I've seen our defense through the years give up plenty of scramble yards to QB's not known as being mobile QBs.   

 

Some QB's you have to gameplan for their mobility, but for the other QB's it doesn't mean they can't or won't do it when they have to, it just isn't something that they regularly do. 

[UK Skins]

It's intriguing to think of us having Howell and a rookie (presumably with #4 as third string). Would make for a fascinating season. Whoever wins the starting job. Providing we fix the O line of course!

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Okay, ignorant question, but would we go backwards from Heine to Haener (obviously not with vowel count or consonants) if he just handed over the keys? Like this is Taylor after years, is this guy's ceiling the same as Taylor's or would he be an actual upgrade?

 

A college QB is always a wildcard.  So I am not swearing by any prospect aside from the rare ones who look slam dunk and even those sometimes fail.

 

But a dude who is known more than anything for his accuracy, with an insane completion percentage -- in theory would be an upgrade albeit for college QBs transitioning to the NFL -- its always theory until it plays out. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fearlessNelms]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

How about comparing him to every other mid to late round pick instead of the literal greatest ever?

My point is I'm not giving up on him based on him not playing as a rookie. If you see that post as anything else, I can't help you.

[Warhead36]

28 minutes ago, fearlessNelms said:

My point is I'm not giving up on him based on him not playing as a rookie. If you see that post as anything else, I can't help you.

The odds are heavily stacked any QB not drafted in the 1st round. But sure, anything is possible I guess. But we shouldn't bank on Howell being anything until 2024 at the absolute earliest.

[Zim489]

37 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

It's intriguing to think of us having Howell and a rookie (presumably with #4 as third string). Would make for a fascinating season. Whoever wins the starting job. Providing we fix the O line of course!

This sounds like again the worst QB room in the league again. So of course what will happen is next year is exactly the same as this year. We end up as a fringe playoff team drafting in the mid to late teens with no way to fix the QB spot.

[fearlessNelms]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

The odds are heavily stacked any QB not drafted in the 1st round. But sure, anything is possible I guess. But we shouldn't bank on Howell being anything until 2024 at the absolute earliest.

You're right. But there are a lot of examples of later round guys who never played as rookies or never started in their first couple of years that went on to have very good careers.

 

Tony Romo- Undrafted- DNP as a rookie

Brad Johnson- 9th round- No starts in first two years- very limited appearances in those years

Mark Brunell- 5th round- DNP as a rookie

 

Those are just a few guys off the top of my head who weren't drafted high, didn't play and/or only saw limited action early in their careers and went on to have very solid NFL careers. I know Johnson and Brunell played for several teams, but the point is if Howell goes on to have a career at least as good as any of those guys, he's going to have a solid career. Brady obviously is an example of lightning in a bottle, but nobody expected him to be what he is, otherwise he wouldn't have went in the 6th round. 

[El Mexican]

10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If Keim, Bram among others are right based on what rhey are hearing, once Wentz is healthy which he should be after the bye, 100% chance it would be Wentz if Heinicke is injured or plays bad.  they like Howell's progress behind the scenes burt according to them he's not an option as a backup above Wentz.

 

Speculative.

 

RR won't change his horse in the final stretch. 

 

If we lose paloff contention then of course. But not with the postseason on the brink.

[fearlessNelms]

I should also say that I use Romo, Johnson and Brunell as examples because while they all had solid careers, I think Howell has a higher ceiling than all of them and could potentially be better or at the very least as good as those guys.

 

[Zim489]

10 minutes ago, fearlessNelms said:

You're right. But there are a lot of examples of later round guys who never played as rookies or never started in their first couple of years that went on to have very good careers.

 

Tony Romo- Undrafted- DNP as a rookie

Brad Johnson- 9th round- No starts in first two years- very limited appearances in those years

Mark Brunell- 5th round- DNP as a rookie

 

Those are just a few guys off the top of my head who weren't drafted high, didn't play and/or only saw limited action early in their careers and went on to have very solid NFL careers. I know Johnson and Brunell played for several teams, but the point is if Howell goes on to have a career at least as good as any of those guys, he's going to have a solid career. Brady obviously is an example of lightning in a bottle, but nobody expected him to be what he is, otherwise he wouldn't have went in the 6th round. 

And what about the countless others? You brought up 3 guys. None of which played any meaningful snaps beyond 2014. Only 1 in the 2010s. 

 

John Skelton Jonathan Crompton Rusty Smith Dan LeFevour Joe Webb Tony Pike Levi Brown Sean Canfield Zac Robinson Ricky Stanzi T.J. Yates Nathan Enderle Tyrod Taylor Greg McElroy Ryan Lindley B.J. Coleman Chandler Harnish Brad Sorensen Zac Dysert B.J. Daniels Sean Renfree Aaron Murray A.J. McCarron Zach Mettenberger David Fales Keith Wenning Tajh Boyd Bryce Petty Brett Hundley Trevor Siemian Kevin Hogan Nate Sudfeld Jake Rudock Brandon Allen Jeff Driskel Brandon Doughty Nathan Peterman Brad Kaaya Chad Kelly Luke Falk Tanner Lee Danny Etling Alex McGough Logan Woodside Easton Stick Gardner Minshew Clayton Thorson Jake Fromm Jake Luton Cole McDonald Ben DiNucci Tommy Stevens Nate Stanley Ian Book Sam Ehlinger

 

Thats every single 5th round and later QB drafted in the 2010s. Outside of a couple names who carved out a maybe ok back up career an entire list of guys who are out of the league in a 1-3 year span. The thought of Howell becoming anything isnt even something to be considered. Keep him on the practice squad a year or 2 more but beyond that you shouldnt even consider him existing. 

[profusion]

13 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

Speculative.

 

RR won't change his horse in the final stretch. 

 

If we lose paloff contention then of course. But not with the postseason on the brink.

 

Yeah, you can't do that to the other guys on the roster. If the team is winning enough games to stay in the race, he'd lose the locker room by making a change.

 

If the O-line doesn't get any better than it was late in the game last week, it may not matter. They'll all get injured and Ron will be looking for someone on the fly.

[fearlessNelms]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

And what about the countless others? You brought up 3 guys. None of which played any meaningful snaps beyond 2014. Only 1 in the 2010s. 

 

John Skelton Jonathan Crompton Rusty Smith Dan LeFevour Joe Webb Tony Pike Levi Brown Sean Canfield Zac Robinson Ricky Stanzi T.J. Yates Nathan Enderle Tyrod Taylor Greg McElroy Ryan Lindley B.J. Coleman Chandler Harnish Brad Sorensen Zac Dysert B.J. Daniels Sean Renfree Aaron Murray A.J. McCarron Zach Mettenberger David Fales Keith Wenning Tajh Boyd Bryce Petty Brett Hundley Trevor Siemian Kevin Hogan Nate Sudfeld Jake Rudock Brandon Allen Jeff Driskel Brandon Doughty Nathan Peterman Brad Kaaya Chad Kelly Luke Falk Tanner Lee Danny Etling Alex McGough Logan Woodside Easton Stick Gardner Minshew Clayton Thorson Jake Fromm Jake Luton Cole McDonald Ben DiNucci Tommy Stevens Nate Stanley Ian Book Sam Ehlinger

 

Thats every single 5th round and later QB drafted in the 2010s. Outside of a couple names who carved out a maybe ok back up career an entire list of guys who are out of the league in a 1-3 year span. The thought of Howell becoming anything isnt even something to be considered. Keep him on the practice squad a year or 2 more but beyond that you shouldnt even consider him existing. 

There's a lot more than 3 mid to late rounders that had good careers through the years and of course there's countless who have failed. There's a ton of first rounders who have failed too- you should be able to rattle them off too, so feel free. Howell was maybe a first rounder going into his senior year and then dropped. He very well may suck- I don't know, but I think he's got ability and I'm not giving up on him without seeing him play. 

[Warhead36]

Nobody is "giving up" on Howell. But banking on him doing anything of note in the NFL and making team building decisions based around that would be foolish. He should be treated like a $5 lottery ticket. If you get even $10 out of it that's a win, but if you're needing to hit that $1 Million to pay your mortgage well I got bad news for ya...

[El Mexican]

5 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

The bigger question is do the coaches still see value in bringing back Wentz for a season or two while revamping the O-line, if they feel Howell needs more time to develop behind the scenes. 

 

That ship has sailed.

 

It's TH, Howell and yet another veteran QB for next year.

 

At this juncture it's pretty clear RR does not feel comfortable giving rookie QBs too much responsibility. 

[KDawg]

4 hours ago, Zim489 said:

And yet Howell dropped to the 5th. Richardson won’t 

And yet Howell was a much better quarterback than Richardson. Interesting, right?

 

 

4 hours ago, Conn said:

He was responding to a point about Haener, but yeah Richardson is gonna go 1st round due to his tools most likely. Of course people thought that about Malik Willis too. 

 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That's what makes me think anything is possible when it comes to Richardson.  Some talked about Willis even going top 5 and yet he fell well beyond that.

 

Malik Willis was shorter and played at Liberty. His slide wasn’t all that shocking to me. 

[fearlessNelms]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Nobody is "giving up" on Howell. But banking on him doing anything of note in the NFL and making team building decisions based around that would be foolish. He should be treated like a $5 lottery ticket. If you get even $10 out of it that's a win, but if you're needing to hit that $1 Million to pay your mortgage well I got bad news for ya...

Thank you! You help me with my point. Howell is like playing with house money- if he pans out to be at least a solid starter for us, we win. If he sucks- we took a shot on a guy who was a projected first rounder going into his senior year and we got him in round 5 and we move on. I just think that a lot of people are assuming he sucks because he's not playing as a rookie- that's a bad take in my opinion. I'm done with it. 

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, fearlessNelms said:

Thank you! You help me with my point. Howell is like playing with house money- if he pans out to be at least a solid starter for us, we win. If he sucks- we took a shot on a guy who was a projected first rounder going into his senior year and we got him in round 5 and we move on. I just think that a lot of people are assuming he sucks because he's not playing as a rookie- that's a bad take in my opinion. I'm done with it. 

People are assuming he will suck because of his draft slot and based on history of the last 12 years its a good bet. You say howell was a first rounder prior to falling to the 5th. I can do the same with a handful of names on the list I posted. Luke Falk Brad Kayaa and Tahj Boy were all highly thought of before their draft year. Doing that with ease. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, fearlessNelms said:

Thank you! You help me with my point. Howell is like playing with house money- if he pans out to be at least a solid starter for us, we win. If he sucks- we took a shot on a guy who was a projected first rounder going into his senior year and we got him in round 5 and we move on. I just think that a lot of people are assuming he sucks because he's not playing as a rookie- that's a bad take in my opinion. I'm done with it. 

but this is the concern. The NFL cycle recycles the backups in the league at a rapid pace. If you are a lower round rookie and don’t get a chance to play your job is going to be in jeopardy the following season. Howell, despite my belief that he’s a good quarterback, is facing an uphill battle.

 

I figure Wentz is gone. That leaves Howell and Heinicke. Heinicke is a free agent, but I’m willing to bet they are going to re-sign him. Turner loves him. Rivera seems to love him. The locker room loves him. 
 

So let’s assume going into April we have Heinicke and Howell.

 

First off, as a Howell fan that even scares me. Howell won’t have taken a snap and Heinicke is… well, Heinicke.

 

If we do something crazy like draft Anthony Richardson (I have a feeling and I don’t love it) that puts him as an automatic roster lock. 
 

Who is the odd man out? The QB who hasn’t taken a snap or the guy who has all the moxie a human can ask for?

 

If they don’t attempt to address QB Rivera is going to get raked over the coals the second something goes on wrong. Which… it’s the media so it is what it is. But that’s not something any organization wants. 
 

Howell has a tough road ahead. If they do it purely based on a play vs. play competition with Heinicke I think Howell can beat him out next year (no, not this year for those of you who struggle with nuanced conversation) but I just don’t see it happening that way. If coaches trust a guy like they do with Heinicke it’s tough to convince them to move on.

 

My hope is someone offers Heinicke more than he’s worth and he leaves for greener pastures and then we add a vet or a rookie or one of each to go with Howell. And either can be a high end guy, too. I just don’t want to see them throw in the towel on Howell.

2 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

People are assuming he will suck because of his draft slot and based on history of the last 12 years its a good bet. You say howell was a first rounder prior to falling to the 5th. I can do the same with a handful of names on the list I posted. Luke Falk Brad Kayaa and Tahj Boy were all highly thought of before their draft year. Doing that with ease. 

Brad Kaaya was never a first rounder. The other two either. I’m not sure why you’re talking like Howell stunk in college. Strange take.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Bram dopped this on his show yesterday, and I agree: I think they're going to bring back Wentz next year on a reduced contract, unless they sign Carr or Jimmy G.  

 

Wentz will have to choose whether he gets released, and then honestly, his market will not be for a starting spot, it will be for a high-end primary backup or compete for starter spot.

 

Which is the spot he's in here, most likely.  

 

Outside of Jimmy or Carr, unless some other veteran materializes, the FA or trade prospects are not good.  I might call up to GB and see if they want to trade Love, just as a flyer. 

 

There aren't a lot of other options out there.  And even as much moxie-ball as TH has played, I just can't see Ron going into the year with him as the primary starter.  He's had 2 opportunities to do it, and hasn't done it yet.  

 

I really could see a world where the QB room looks identical next year as it does this year, (though I REALLY hope they don't re-sign TH, I'd prefer to let somebody else over-pay him, because he's going to be over-paid) and let Wentz and TH battle for the starter spot in camp.  If TH wins it, then fine.  

 

They need to upgrade the OL something fierce though, no matter what.