The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You're wrong.

 

What I said, and have always said, they screwed it up in 2016.  After that, they didn't realize his market value, which they set by tagging him.

 

I also said I wouldn't pay his market value in 2017 or 2018 because I didn't think he was worth the market value.  But THEY set the market value by tagging him.  And then they offered him a bunch of below-market contracts.  They should have traded him after 2016, which was the REALLY big miss.  They weren't going to match his market value, there was no sense in hanging onto him, and they had an offer (I believe Kyle offered the 2nd overall pick in a draft) for him, and they turned it down. But Bruce desperately wanted to get to 10-6 and back into the playoffs in 2017, so they franchised him and didn't trade him again. 

 

And the press conference where he read out the contract details was deplorable.  

 

I think they thought after the 2 tags they could get him cheaper?  It was completely stupid.

 

But what Bruce couldn't figure out is that was his market value.  The last contract they offered, I think they were $50 million off market value, and Bruce couldn't figure out why Kirk was saying no to the below-market deals.

 

There were 3 screw-ups: 

1. Not signing him to a long-term-deal after 2015. This was the big one.  And I think Bruce and Scot McLoughan both had their hand in it.  Scot from a value perspective and Bruce from an "I'm cheap" perspective.  Remember, the person Kirk was screaming "How do you like me now?" at was Scot McLoughan. 

2. Not realizing they set his market value at a level which you wouldn't want to pay by tagging him and then offering contracts WAY under market value and not understanding why Kirk was saying no to them. 

3. Not trading him when it became completely apparent he was going to get a stupid high offer from somebody you weren't going to match.

 

The only thing I agreed with is I would not have given him an $84m fully guaranteed 3 year contract because he's not good enough to deserve it.  And he hasn't come even remotely close to living up to it.  But there was never any reason for it to come to that.  They screwed it up from the beginning.  

 

I think the difference is I think they nuked it in January/February 2016 and I think others believe they could have gotten a deal done after the first tag. I don't really think a deal after the first tag which wasn't akin to the $84m fully guaranteed deal was in the offing.  So, they needed to trade him.

 

I've literally never moved off this perspective.  A bunch of folks read it to think I'm taking Bruce's side, which is not the case.  I just think the screwup wasn't in not offering a contract Kirk would have signed.  If Bruce put an $84m fully guaranteed contract in front of him, he would have signed it.  Bruce didn't do that.  Bruce didn't do that because he didn't think anybody else would I KNEW somebody would come close to $30m/year for a starting QB at that time.  I didn't predict the fully guaranteed for 3 years.  That was new, nobody had ever done it before. 

 

Bruce didn't do it because he couldn't fathom that was Kirk's value.  I wouldn't have done it because I don't think he's worth the value.

 

But I would have figured out a way to sign him for 3-4 years after 2015 and never tagged him.  Even if that was taking the tag values of 2016 and 2017, guaranteeing them, and then adding another 2 years to it at the average value.  I'm willing to bet Kirk after 2015 would have signed a 4 year, $85m deal with $50-60m guaranteed.  They paid him $44 anyway.  

 

To me, that was the cardinal sin.  They didn't realize after 2015 they had no other options for the next 2-3 years so they had to lock him up any way possible.  And by not realizing that, they blew it.  

 

lol, long response.

 

I could have sworn you said you didn't think Bruce flubbed the trade compensation component of this.

 

but if you say i am wrong or you do think he flubbed it, cool that's all i need to know.

 

Like I said, while how they handled this frustrated me at the time, now in retrospect, i love it.  Not every Minny reporter sees this the same way.  A Minny reporter on Keim's latest podcast likes having Kirk.  But in the overall scheme of things, I don't give a rats behind.  As to anything -- and i mean anything, any player, any coach or whomever -- I don't care who the collateral damage is, i love it in the context of making his team a dumpster fire leading to Dan selling.

 

So bravo to Bruce and the third round compensation pick and all the QB hell we've endured -- it lead us to this point and I love it now with the benefit of hindsight. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[JSSkinz]

28 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I wonder if Dan would be even considering selling the team had we kept Kirk and been successful here for a few years. 

Kirk hasn't been successful in Minnesota so I don't see how he would have done anything positive here. I think our team and Dan would be in the same situation if he was here but I also think we would have let him go after the initial 3 year deal ran out, he's on his 2nd contract in Minny. 

 

This is his 5th year at Minny, so far his team has made the playoffs 1 out of 4 years with no division titles.  Can anyone say with a straight face he deserves the contract he's being paid and that he would have made us better when he hasn't succeeded with a team that probably has the best WR/HB combo in the league.

 

The Vikes are finally having a good year and only have 2 good teams left on their schedule so they will runaway with the division but that's also due to it being one of the worst divisions in the NFL and they have played a very soft schedule. We'll see what happens when they play another good team like Philly, that's the only way to gauge his value IMO.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

could have sworn you said you didn't think Bruce flubbed the trade compensation component of this.

Yeah, no, that wasn’t me. Unless I was in a drunken stopper and I don’t remember….

[SkinsFTW]

But I'm pretty sure that you weren't saying that they should sign him after 2015.

 

There were a few of us that did, everybody else said that he still had to prove it and wasn't worth the money.

 

Obviously he would have been worth the 16-18M they could have signed him to then but never would he be worth what the Vikings paid him. Mccloughan was right. I figured that he would improve but he really hasn't at all.

[skinsmania123]

15 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

 

 

The Vikes are finally having a good year and only have 2 good teams left on their schedule so they will runaway with the division but that's also due to it being one of the worst divisions in the NFL and they have played a very soft schedule. We'll see what happens when they play another good team like Philly, that's the only way to gauge his value IMO.

 

 

The Eagles bulldozed the Vikings in mid-September. The pressure on Cousin's in that game was relentless, and his O line did not hold up, so the result carried the same old bottom line, that Cousin's folds like a cheap tent in prime time. They got a lot of pressure on him.  Plus, their secondary was really exposed in that game as I remember. I think you are 100% correct about their easy schedule though and yes, the truth regarding his value will be on full display in the playoffs.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

But I'm pretty sure that you weren't saying that they should sign him after 2015.

 

There were a few of us that did, everybody else said that he still had to prove it and wasn't worth the money.

 

Obviously he would have been worth the 16-18M they could have signed him to then but never would he be worth what the Vikings paid him. Mccloughan was right. I figured that he would improve but he really hasn't at all.

Actually, no.  I said they should sign him after 2015 because there was absolutely no other option for the next 2 years, and they had talked about using the franchise tag.  I posted loudly they should never use the franchise tag because that immediately sets the floor at a top 5 level.  It was clear Griffin wasn't the answer, they didn't have a high draft pick to use on a QB, and Cousins had proven he was at least a capable starter.  My proposal at the time was 10-15% less than the franchise tag amount and guarantee 2.5 years.  The reason: if you franchise tagged him once, you set the floor, and he would be looking for the second year franchise tag value as the floor the next year.  

 

Could they have done it earlier in 2015?  Yeah, but I'm not sure what he would have signed.

 

After the season, I was loudly saying they needed to lock him up for 3-4 years because there was no other option.  

 

I was never in the "prove it" category.  You don't pay somebody top-5 money to prove it.  That's where the stupidity came from with the organization.  

[Passizle]

Great pick!

[Passizle]

I should probably switch to Jamo now to blunt the sting of this being a nail biter until the 2m warning... The ONE thing ill give Snyder... nearly every game for 20+ years has had me watching until the end. Any reality basis on Dan being forced out?

Uh oh... TH looking like Damien Omen right there....

[redskinss]

Heart of gold, balls of steel and an arm like a water pistol.

[Llevron]

I do want to see the young guy at this point. I know Ron has to coach like he knows nothing about the rest of the org….but come on. 

[Warhead36]

Its hard to sustain success with a QB like Heinicke because the offense is just so limited. 

 

If not for a complete fluke TD to Samuel because the ref knocked a DB down(a throw that was in triple coverage and surely would be picked off), the offense was basically complete junk today. 

 

Its not all on him. The playcalling sucks and the OL can't pass protect. But the ceiling on offense with Heinicke at QB is so low.

Just now, Llevron said:

I do want to see the young guy at this point. I know Ron has to coach like he knows nothing about the rest of the org….but come on. 

I let Heinicke be the sacrificial lamb in Philly. Then I start Howell the rest of the way. 

[Tonysoprano1]

If we had even an average quarterback we would be dangerous. Such a sad state of quarterback in DC

[Est.1974]

Howell please. Or does Ron let the Eagles trample over us first?

[Est.1974]

Some big time veteran QBs around the league looking fairly pissed off in their current situations. 
 

Tampa, Green Bay, Vegas. 
 

What’s the betting 2023 has a wild offseason at QB ? And with new owners, could we be in the midst of it ?
 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Sure seems like the Texans game might be an ideal spot to get a look at Howell.

Edited November 6, 2022 by TradeTheBeal!

[DazedSkinsfan]

All will be right with the world when we get our Varsity QB back in a couple weeks 🤣🤣.........All jokes aside,  TH is a life long backup playing behind a O-line that most high school defenses could dominate 

[Warhead36]

13 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Some big time veteran QBs around the league looking fairly pissed off in their current situations. 
 

Tampa, Green Bay, Vegas. 
 

What’s the betting 2023 has a wild offseason at QB ? And with new owners, could we be in the midst of it ?
 

 

If Bezos is the new owner I want us to make a huge offer for Lamar Jackson.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Call me crazy, but I’d love a Thursday curveball that Howell is getting the start.  But Ron won’t do that to TH, in fact I’m not sure he can play bad enough against the Eagles to not play the next week either.

[Daniel.redskins]

I think most agree that if TH miraculous beats Philly then you give him the keys.  If we lose as expected, then play Howell the rest of the way.  This franchise needs a lucky break.  Hopefully Howell plays well enough for us to build the o-line next season.  Wentz is done in my book.  

[JSSkinz]

Please get Howell ready for the Texans, I know Ron wont because it will be weeks before we're mathematically eliminated but 7 games for Sam would be a solid sample size to figure out what he is.  

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Call me crazy, but I’d love a Thursday curveball that Howell is getting the start.  But Ron won’t do that to TH, in fact I’m not sure he can play bad enough against the Eagles to not play the next week either.

 

Rivera is in an interesting situation now with the ownership scenario.

 

I've said for a months I don't care what happens to Rivera if Dan leaves and I am sticking by that.

 

I don't think Rivera is a buffoon, the way some do.  I think he's a decent coach and above average from the context of what Dan can acquire -- plus with Dan's personality and generally sleaziness -- it does matter to me to have a good human being coaching the team.

 

But now this dynamic looks to have changed.  we actually might be able to attract a top tier HC and or GM.  Heck who knows maybe the new owner wants to make a splash and bring in Sean Payton?  Things that once seemed ridiculous might not be anymore.

 

So wonder how Rivera now sees the season? 

 

With Wentz at a minimum it comes off that Dan was a partner in arms with that move.  Right now that move doesn't look hot.   does he want to roll the dice and say I might have screwed up with Wentz but look at Howell?

 

My gut is Rivera might not be here next year because of the arrangment he got from Dan.  Rivera having personnel control makes all the sense in the world in the context of Dan -- but makes almost no sense with a new owner.  So if said new owner strips Rivera of control does he stay?  Again, I don't really care but it might be interesting to see how that dynamic plays out.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[NoCalMike]

The game took a few unexpected turns but the finish line still looked pretty much as expected.  For all of the excitement Heinicke brings, you have to forget about the "underdog story" at some point and look at what's actually taking place on the field.  All week long we heard about how lesser the Vikings pass defense was versus the teams they've faced the last month, but in order to take advantage of that you need a QB that can toss the ball all over the field and not be contained to 10-15 yards downfield.    Cousins was getting tossed all over the field, but they didn't stop attempting the longer passes and they ended up hitting on some.   

 

Heinicke limits the passing offense.  For what he does well, he doesn't do some things an NFL QB should be able to do.  The margin of error with him is so low.  We can bash on Wentz all he want, and much of it is deserved, but Wentz still has the intangibles that you can absorb a mistake on one drive and come right back and hit a quick strike 5 play 80 yard drive on the next drive.  With Heinicke it doesn't matter, every single drive is the same looks, same plays, same everything and it makes it a lot easier for defenses.  

[zCommander]

36 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

If Bezos is the new owner I want us to make a huge offer for Lamar Jackson.

 

I am not a big fan of Lamar. He is okay but not really good though. 

[JSSkinz]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So wonder how Rivera now sees the season? 

I hope whatever he does its in the best interest of the team and not being selfish because he knows he's probably out next year with new ownership.

 

Getting Sam no playing time and giving Wentz enough snaps to give up the 2nd rd. pick would be very frustrating. 

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I am not a big fan of Lamar. He is okay but not really good though. 

lol what? are you mental bro? Jackson is incredible.