The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

21 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Wow Skip called it we did end up winning 7 straight.

 

Man 2012 was fun. That's what its like having a legit QB. You're basically a contender every year. Its what Chiefs, Bills, Packers fans etc. feel EVERY season. So jealous.

Buffalo was pretty average until 2019, so I wouldn't include them with your "every season" discussion. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Professor_Nutter_Butter

[LadySkinsFan]

We need lots of new people: 1) GM who chooses the 2) offensive minded coach not defense, 3) fix the O line, and 4) get a young QB. 

 

Unfortunately, Wentz's contract is going to hamper the team for another two years but that shouldn't discourage them to try and fix things. 

 

And the ultimate #1 is get a new owner. 

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

We need lots of new people: 1) GM who chooses the 2) offensive minded coach not defense, 3) fix the O line, and 4) get a young QB. 

 

Unfortunately, Wentz's contract is going to hamper the team for another two years but that shouldn't discourage them to try and fix things. 

 

And the ultimate #1 is get a new owner. 

 

Contract is not a problem unless they double down and keep him. He can be released after this season with 0 CAP hit and no dead money. This should be a one and done deal.

 

I do agree the ultimate fix is a new owner. I also agree with the order of operations in the first line. Get a real GM and let tham build a team including thier own HC. Get out of thev way! Just not in dans DNA it would appear. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

8 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Buffalo was pretty average until 2019, so I wouldn't include them with your "every season" discussion. 

It’s what they’ve felt every season for the past 4 seasons (2019, 2020, 2021, and now) 🤷🏻‍♂️ and they’re one of the teams with an elite QB, soooo they definitely deserve to be included. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Cooleyfan1993

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

3 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

It’s what they’ve felt every season for the past 4 seasons (2019, 2020, 2021, and now) 🤷🏻‍♂️ and they’re one of the teams with an elite QB, soooo they definitely deserve to be included. 

No disagreements that'd they've been great, but I don't know if I'd lump them in just yet with the teams that have had consistent level of success like Kansas City and Green Bay. But they're definitely on that trajectory.

 

But back on topic: Washington sucks.

[zCommander]

11 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Buffalo was pretty average until 2019, so I wouldn't include them with your "every season" discussion. 

 

From 2000 to 2016 only. They did go to 4 SBs back to back from 91-94 and losing all of them. I actually felt sorry for them back in the days lol

 

2017 Wild Card Round: Jacksonville Jaguars 10, Buffalo Bills 3

2019 Wild Card Round: Houston Texans 22, Buffalo Bills 19OT

2020 Wild Card Round: Buffalo Bills 27, Indianapolis Colts 24

2020 Divisional Playoffs: Buffalo Bills 17, Baltimore Ravens 3

2020 AFC Championship: Kansas City Chiefs 38, Buffalo Bills 24

2021 Wild Card Round: Buffalo Bills 47, New England Patriots 17

2021 Divisional Playoffs: Kansas City Chiefs 42, Buffalo Bills 36OT

[Fan since a Fetus]

59 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

So I think part of the problem is that the interior line is so bad that he has no faith it will hold up for him to step forward. More often than not they are getting pressure with only 4 rushing. Add to that the fact that he doesn't know if the snap if going to be at his feet or somewhere else entirely and you have a recipe for disaster on every snap that makes him gun shy, i'm sure. 

 

No doubt that the opine is a huge part of the problem along with no audibles. But Wentz, looking back at the Colts highlights had this same problem. 

 

41 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah his mechanics are just so consistently flawed. I don't think his decision making is even THAT bad as much as his mechanics. I get more triggered by him consistently overthrowing open receivers. The red zone throws he's trying to squeeze into tight coverage but nobody was open and we were desperate, that's gonna happen.

 

And the offensive scheme/playcalling does him no favors either.

 

That is exactly where I'm at. He misses throws completely because of his mechanics.

59 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

They can blame Wentz all they want but the failure to properly field a competent O-line is a much bigger issue.  Im no huge Wentz guy but he really isn't playing bad, its just hard to step into throws when your Oline is letting free rushers crush you up the middle and cant stop a 2 man rush with 5 Olineman.  Wentz has no faith in the Oline and he shouldn't.  I think that putting Howell in is a terrible idea at least until they get a little protection.  

 

I'm not blaming solely Wentz, it can be all of the above...line, Wentz's mechanics and a crappy play caller that allows no QB ownership at the line 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Fan since a Fetus

[LadySkinsFan]

13 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Contract is not a problem unless they double down and keep him. He can be released after this season with 0 CAP hit and no dead money. This should be a one and done deal.

 

I do agree the ultimate fix is a new owner. I also agree with the order of operations in the first line. Get a real GM and let tham build a team including thier own HC. Get out of thev way! Just not in dans DNA it would appear. 

 

Didn't know the ins and outs of Wentz's contract except it was big. Thanks for the info, I feel better about that.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

9 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

From 2000 to 2016 only. They did go to 4 SBs back to back from 91-94 and losing all of them. I actually felt sorry for them back in the days lol

 

2017 Wild Card Round: Jacksonville Jaguars 10, Buffalo Bills 3

2019 Wild Card Round: Houston Texans 22, Buffalo Bills 19OT

2020 Wild Card Round: Buffalo Bills 27, Indianapolis Colts 24

2020 Divisional Playoffs: Buffalo Bills 17, Baltimore Ravens 3

2020 AFC Championship: Kansas City Chiefs 38, Buffalo Bills 24

2021 Wild Card Round: Buffalo Bills 47, New England Patriots 17

2021 Divisional Playoffs: Kansas City Chiefs 42, Buffalo Bills 36OT

That 2017 year doesn't count. Going 9-7 in the regular season and losing 10-3 in the postseason against Jacksonville isn't great.

 

On topic: Wentz gotta go.

[NoCalMike]

Once a QB has lost faith in the O-line to pass block consistently, it is going to affect how they react.  You can't really make the argument of "Sure, Wentz was rushed, hit, and/or sacked 7 out of his 10 dropbacks, but what about the other 3" as if 7/10 times doesn't take enough toll to effect how the QB reacts back there.  Once a consistent pattern is developed, a player is going to have that in their head and take it into account going forward.   We've seen Wentz settle down and play much better any time there is a stretch of game time that the pocket is clean or at least clean enough.  Also, I am pretty sure it was Wentz who audibled to the second Dyami Brown TD pass, so maybe Turner should give Wentz a little more freedom to react according to what he sees in the defense prior to the snap.  It seems pretty normal in today's NFL to let a veteran QB do that. 

 

That isn't to say Wentz isn't making some bad throws/mistakes of his own doing, and I am very willing to focus on those when we are analyzing Wentz in a vacuum, but at the end of the day the coaches knew what they were trading for and didn't seem to do a very good job putting the QB they claimed was wanted, in a very good situation to succeed.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

Good omen for Carson having a big game when Stephen Smith is taking shots

 

 

 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Does it really matter that I was practically begging this team to trade down in 2020 so we could trade up in 2021 if we didn't believe in drafting anyone except Burrow?

 

Rather have Zach Wilson then Wentz right now, who nows what kinda package we coulda put together if that was the plan.

 

If you want to argue there's nothing we could've done to prevent our current QB situation, that's fine, you and I aren't paid millions to figure it out, Ron is.

The trades needed to happen for the '20, '21 and '23 classes. Scouts everywhere knew going in the classes with the good and interesting prospects where those, just like they knew '12 was great, but '13 and '14 looked lousy, and that '17 and '18 looked great, but '19 looked lousy.

 

Are they right on these grades? Nope, we all know the QB miss rate is around 50%, so sometimes, a class has an outsized hit rate versus expectations ('17 and '20) and sometimes it has an outsized miss rate ('18 and for now, '21)....

 

Ron had to know this. If he wanted to draft and develop his own QB, he had to do it in '20, '21 or '23. And he had to play draft pick assets that way.

 

Instead he focused on defense and quick fixes, and like very single year going back decades, it blew up in our face, quite predictably. I'm not here to tout my hits, I've been horrendous at evaluating which guys to go after:

In '17 I was afraid of Watson's arm strength, but liked Mahomes and hated Trubisky.

In '18 I had Allen Dead last due to accuracy issues and was all over Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. 

In '19 Kyler was the only one I cared at all about.

In '20 I liked all 3 and overrated the hell out of Tua.

In '21 I had them Lawrence, Fields, Lance, Mac, and then the Jets guy as a near certain bust.

In '22 none were worth even a late first for me beyond Willis and Howell and that would have been a colossal waste considering what they went for. 

In '23 We've got four or five guys, and in Young and Stroud, two guys that have generally been 1-2 for 2 years. 

 

Its very interesting how this will play out.

 

As for Wentz as talked about in other posts: He's a compiler. He has the raw tools to throw any pass, so he can produce gaudy stats, but like Jeff George, Cousins etc, he just doesn't have that last bit that turns tools into wins, and playoff runs, mental make up, who knows. But there have been guys like this every generation, that have the physical tools, but lack the rest of the details and Wentz is that guy. If he wasn't, if he had the tools, there's no chance the eagles would have dumped him for a guy who may not be NFL accurate enough to stick as a starter circa 2020 and beyond. Nor would the Colts who also had nothing to turn to behind him. The fact that he was dumped by good solid teams who lacked clear answers and dumped him anyway was the trail of clues on why not to do this.

 

Interesting to note that now we know he was the third plan after the Stafford and Jimmy G plans failed. Jimmy G's smartly timed surgery probably saved his career. 

[panel]

Rivera should have never made that comment.  Seems to me he is feeling insecure about his job, and is trying to deflect. Yeah, Carson has not been who some expected him to be, but he is exactly what I expected. The main reason for the Commanders offensive struggle is the offensive line. Rivera pretty much cleaned house on a solid WAS offensive line, got all new players that were former Panthers, and they have sucked. Carson would be better if he was protected more. Carson actually needs more protection than most due to how he holds the ball a fraction longer. Yeah, that is on him, but they should have known that when they got him. Carson has less time to throw than most QBs (maybe all of them). Rivera is pointing blame to prevent getting fired himself.

 

 

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Well Young isn't a slam dunk and we don't have a future QB on a rookie contract, so jokes on all of us.  Jets have a winning record plus they aren't questioning getting rid of Wilson already, look where we are 5 weeks in (1-4 and coaching staff talking about Wentz being unfixable?)

 

Honestly, I would've traded the farm to get Lawrence after trading down in 2020, that's not that insane considering we had the #2 overall pick.

 

This isn't hindsight, go look at my posts back in 2020, I was totally alone is saying we should be prioritizing QB over a potential HOF DE because how much more important QB was and we could be wrong on Young.  

 

But noooooo...he was a slam fn dunk, let's root to lose to Dallas to make sure we get him. We'll figure out a plan for the most important position in football another day...😒

 

By all means, laugh all yall want, I'm still waiting for more folks to jus admit that drafting Young and not doing everything we could to either get a QB in 2020 or trade down so we could try in 2021 was a mistake, not doubling down like there was nothing else we could've done. The obvious lesson learned here is you cannot do a rebuild without one, full stop. 

 

Not totally alone. I was 1000% against the Young pick as well, though not supersmart about it, lol, I wanted Burrow or failing that Tua, I didnt know what to think of Herbert beyond basically worth targeting over Young. 

 

I was basically for QB, period and everything else was irrelevant. I've been arguing that since 1998, and its hilarious how rarely we've addressed the issue intelligently (basically since then, just in 2012, and I was fine with the RGIII trade btw, and still am-if it fails, you find out quick, bottom out in 2+ years, and by then you have a top draft pick in a draft, unfortunately for us, that would have been the crappy '15 and '16 classes but so what, reboot again, and try again in '18, or '20/'21). 

[NoCalMike]

Ron Rivera at the end of 2021 season, "everything we need is in this locker room"  *proceeds to let some of those things walk out of the locker room*

[ThomasRoane]

42 minutes ago, panel said:

Rivera should have never made that comment.  Seems to me he is feeling insecure about his job, and is trying to deflect. Yeah, Carson has not been who some expected him to be, but he is exactly what I expected. The main reason for the Commanders offensive struggle is the offensive line. Rivera pretty much cleaned house on a solid WAS offensive line, got all new players that were former Panthers, and they have sucked. Carson would be better if he was protected more. Carson actually needs more protection than most due to how he holds the ball a fraction longer. Yeah, that is on him, but they should have known that when they got him. Carson has less time to throw than most QBs (maybe all of them). Rivera is pointing blame to prevent getting fired himself.

 

 

 

I agree that the Oline is very inconsistent and definitely a contributing factor for the struggles the offense is having.  However, the team had to go to Goodwill to replace their Guards because they spent all their money ($25 million) on their QB.  You can't separate the contract from the state of the Oline.  They're related.  Unless you can get a superstar (Mahomes) then the best plan for getting to a Super Bowl is either having a QB play well enough on a rookie deal (Seahawks with Wilson's 1st Super Bowl) or to build a solid team and mortgage your draft future to bring in your QB (Rams - Stafford).  

 

I'm not going to say that Wentz has no talent at all.  That would be disingenuous.  He throws a good long ball and sometimes his size can help him get out of a sack.  My problem is that for $25 million a year your QB should not struggle with mechanics and decision-making.  If there's no significant improvement vs the Bears then I'd start working out Howell during the bye.  Find out what you have in him cause the crop of QBs looks better for 2023 than it has since the Burrow draft.

 

I feel bad for Wentz cause he seems like a good guy.  I'm not confident that he'll torch the Bears.  Tennessee was missing some starters on defense.  Let's not forget that.   He doesn't appear to have the ability to process what's going on quick enough nor the intangibles to be the kind of QB who can overcome a lot of adversity.   

 

Soooooo....As Czaben would say, let's see what the #14 car can do!  

Edited October 11, 2022 by ThomasRoane

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[ThomasRoane]

 

Weird double post.

Edited October 11, 2022 by ThomasRoane

[ExoDus84]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

"Washington Fans...let's die"

 

- Rivera on the podium after we lose to the Bears.

 

(hopefully some of you get this reference haha)

Edited October 11, 2022 by ExoDus84

[ntotoro]

Coaches shouldn't have bad days publicly. That's an extremely poor and worrisome trait for a "leader."

[ExoDus84]

Just now, ntotoro said:

Coaches shouldn't have bad days publicly. That's an extremely poor and worrisome trait for a "leader."

 

He'd been stuck on the same Candy Crush level for the previous 3 hours, and needed an outlet for his frustration.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[FootballZombie]

14 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

He'd been stuck on the same Candy Crush level for the previous 3 hours, and needed an outlet for his frustration.

 

At least he is doing something on the sidelines at gametime. Beats just standing there.

 

 

 

Wentz is far from the worst QB in the league, but he is a below average starting one. You combine that with his monster contract cap hit and you got a guy who is unable to play himself out of the hole his presence creates. Its still early, but it is seriously looking like our inability to put a roster around him that is as good as last season's is more than offsetting an actual improvement at the QB position. As a team we look to be worse overall than last year, and probably significantly so.

 

I think the detriment to roster construction brought primarily by Wentz' contract is doing more harm to the team then Wentz play. Carson probably had his best game of the season vs Tenn and it still didn't matter in the W/L column. It is not a consistent feasible existence for winning football. The only way you can hope to do anything of note w/ this dude at QB is if his roster impact is an absolute fraction of what it currently is so he does not have to compensate for an absolutely nuked roster.

Edited October 11, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Est.1974]

Rivera’s losing it. Looks rattled.

 

Wentz has conducted himself fairly well overall. Shame we brought him in and disregarded improvements to vast amounts of the remaining roster. 

[Redskins 2021]

 

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

 

At least he is doing something on the sidelines at gametime. Beats just standing there.

 

 

 

Wentz is far from the worst QB in the league, but he is a below average starting one. You combine that with his monster contract cap hit and you got a guy who is unable to play himself out of the hole his presence creates. Its still early, but it is seriously looking like our inability to put a roster around him that is as good as last season's is more than offsetting an actual improvement at the QB position. As a team we look to be worse overall than last year, and probably significantly so.

 

I think the detriment to roster construction brought primarily by Wentz' contract is doing more harm to the team then Wentz play. Carson probably had his best game of the season vs Tenn and it still didn't matter in the W/L column. It is not a consistent feasible existence for winning football. The only way you can hope to do anything of note w/ this dude at QB is if his roster impact is an absolute fraction of what it currently is so he does not have to compensate for an absolutely nuked roster.

 Would you want him back if he took a major pay cut? No one giving him 26 million next year would you take him back at 9 million if roster was improved? I think this team is closer to rebuild then contender.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Redskins 2021