The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

15 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

More likely they would trade TH before cutting him. He is ranked as one of the better backup QB's in the league. That being said, it's day 2 of camp, clearly the organization hopes Howell will play out to be a factor in the future but RR needs to win this year and he knows he can win with TH if the roster is healthy. Lets see how things go in the preseason games before cutting TH and declaring Howell the #2, games are way different than practices.  

 

We're not going to get anything for Heinicke. Maybe a 6th or 7th from a desperate team if they have an injury. Baker Mayfield was just traded for a 2024 5th round pick and he's far more proven and talented than TH is. 

 

13 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Howell has to be #2 first to lose in a playoff game.

 

Are we really that butt hurt about TH that we rather see a rookie QB be named #2 because that means TH won't be #2. Does the team come first or the fan's feelings are more important now?

 

I highly doubt Howell will know Turner's offense like TH does. The edge here goes to TH. 

 

I think you're putting a bit too much stock in knowing the offense vs upside. Sure, if Howell isn't picking up the offense well and clearly needs more time then he won't supplant Heinicke. But if he's not struggling and he and TH are even close in their understanding of the offense then IMO the nod will definitely go to Howell due to having a vastly higher upside.

[Warhead36]

Heinicke has 0 value to anyone else in the league. We wouldn't trade him because nobody would offer anything. He's completely capped out. People talk about how he can win us a game or two if he has to start are fooling themselves. The league completely figured him out last year and the only games we did win in the 2nd half were because the D played well or the Bucs game which was super fluky. Well that and the Giants game which they just happened to somehow be even worse than us offensively by that point.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Warhead36

[Voice_of_Reason]

12 hours ago, Mrshadow008 said:

So during our Session with Zampese we went through three plays. And based off your description here of Norv I would say the apple doesnt fall far from the tree with Scott.

I should have probably stated in my post the reason I brought up the Norv history lesson is because Scott's offense IS Norv's offense, with some additional wrinkles. Scott has mostly been on staff's with his dad, and run this offense.  I'm sure he has his own ideas, so it's not an exact replica.  But the building blocks are certainly the same.  

 

If you go back further, the offense builds off of the Coryell system (which is also the foundation of the Gibbs system.)  And also interesting: Norv learned the system, at least in part, from Ernie Zampese.  Ernie was the OC of the LA Rams from '87 - '93, where Norv was the WR coach at the same time.  Then Norv took over the OC role with the Cowboys in 1991, before taking the HC job here.  And ironically, Ernie would replace Norv as OC of the Cowboys when Norv left in 1993.  

 

And of course, we all know that Ernie Zampese is Ken Zampese's father.

 

So this whole offense really starts from Coyrell, taught to Ernie Zampese, who taught it to Norv (and presumably his kid Ken), and then Norv taught it to his kid Scott, and now Scott and Ken are running it here.

 

And thus ends the history lesson.    

 

EDIT: Except to say, Gibbs was the OC under Coryell with the Chargers, which is where HE learned the system before he became the HC here in 1982.  

 

This franchise has been tied to the Coyrell system from 1982 - 1999 (GIbbs then Norv), and the from 2004-2007 (Gibbs again, and Saunders is off of the tree as well, somehow), and now again from 2020-now.  

 

Marty, Zorn, Shanahan and Gruden all ran some version of the WCO. Shanahan was the OC for Walsh in SF, Jay Gruden learned from brother Jon, who is off of the Andy Reid tree, which is a branch of the Holmgren tree.  And Holmgren is a branch off of Walsh.  Spurrier ran his own thing (badly.)

 

I think you can trace jut about every offense in the  NFL to either Walsh's WCO or Coryell's Number System.  With a very significant tilt towards the Walsh WCO tree.  Because Holmgren and Reid, which are both branches off of the Walsh tree, have basically huge trees of their own at this point.

 

 

 

[redskinss]

36 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Until Ron says it otherwise. Are we no longer allowed to have an opinion in this thread?

 

Your view is not the holy grill 😂

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by redskinss

[Voice_of_Reason]

A few random thoughts based on comments from others.  (I'm not going to quote all the posts.)

 

On Wentz's accuracy:

I expect this will continue to improve throughout camp, especially on the deep passes.  This is the first time he is working with any of these receivers, and he has to get to know them.  And they need to get to know him.  Route depth, speed, ball location, all of these things will take time to work out.

 

I like that they seem to be continuing to call deep shots so they have the opportunity to build that chemistry.  It's going to take time and repetitions.  That's true for any new QB/WR combination. 

 

Where I think you'll see the accuracy "mature" first is when Wentz is throwing balls to stationary targets.  For example, dig routs and stop routes, where the WR will push up the field, and then turn and face the QB, showing him the target. Those are much more easy throws, because you are drilling it to a spot which is clearly defined.

 

The harder routes are those where you have to anticipate where the WR is going to be, either vertically or horizontally (or both).  Those will take time.

 

On TH vs. Howell:

I believe Ron might not say this out loud, but I think he's going to give Howell every opportunity to win the backup job. If he doesn't, they have TH as the stop gap.  

 

But make no mistake, they will WANT Howell to win the job. It's better for the team to have the backup QB have more physical skills than TH, and he would win the job only if he shows enough of a command of the offense to do so.

 

I don't know what is going to happen.  I think a tie goes to TH, at least early in the season.  As the season progresses, the tie might go to Howell.  

 

To @Thinking Skins,  Grossman played "meh" in 2011.  TH played "Meh" or worse in 2021.  The stat that keeps coming up, only 64% of Terry McLaurin's targets were catchable balls, which ranked last amongst all receivers with at least 100 targets.  That is atrocious accuracy.  He was way down in just about every single passing statistical category (except completion percentage, which is somewhat meaningless without context.)   If Ron and company believe Howell gives them a better chance to win because he knows enough of the playbook, and has better physical tools, he's going to get the nod. Do I expect that to happen by week 1?  I think it's slightly tilted towards TH keeping the backup job, maybe 60/40.

 

However, if Wentz is out for a stretch of 3+ games, I would bet all the money in my left front pocket they would start Howell over TH assuming Howell isn't pooping himself in practice.  

 

And no, nobody is trading for TH.  He has literally no trade value to anybody other than Scott Turner.  As I detailed above, he knows the Coryell/Turner offense.  90% of the league runs the WCO.  Nobody is trading for a physically limited QB who has to learn an entirely new offense.  Literally nobody.   

[Koolblue13]

Pretty sure he'd be available most of the season if we just cut him.

[Voice_of_Reason]

26 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Pretty sure he'd be available most of the season if we just cut him.

All year. I doubt he would be signed by anybody after camp.  Somebody (us?) might put him on a practice squad but that’s probably his market.  
 

But he’s worth having on the roster to have one guy in the room who has more than 6 months experience with the offense. So I’m not advocating cutting him.

 

Though, if Howell beats him out for the backup, I would risk losing him by cutting him and then re-signing him to the PS. Would save $3+ million against the cap which would roll forward.

 

I don’t see any way the would do it though.  They are nicer than I am.  

Edited July 30, 2022 by Voice_of_Reason

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Trying to get a vague impression for Wentz's level of play so far. On a 1-5 scale.

 

Day 1: 3

Day 2: 1 (terrible)

Day 3: 4

Day 4: 4 (or a 5?)

 

Anyone getting different impressions from twitter or wherever?

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Keim and Bram today on a podcast both who are typically higher than most on Wentz.  Summarizing all three practices so far.  

 

A.  Overall "meh" so far in camp.  Overall according to them he hasn't been good, suggest below average on the aggregate.  But at the same time they defend him, saying he's new -- give him time. 

 

B.  Main issue is his accuracy isn't that good especially with intermediate throws -- they say its obvious as heck for anyone watching camp.

 

C.  His best skills so far is the quick game and throwing deep.

 

D.  Keim goes on that he has the right receivers to deal with his accuracy issues -- good catch radius Wrs on the roster.   Bram goes that he used to be really accurate in his prime in Philly and wonders why not now?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

 

[Thinking Skins]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

To @Thinking Skins,  Grossman played "meh" in 2011.  TH played "Meh" or worse in 2021.  The stat that keeps coming up, only 64% of Terry McLaurin's targets were catchable balls, which ranked last amongst all receivers with at least 100 targets.  That is atrocious accuracy.  He was way down in just about every single passing statistical category (except completion percentage, which is somewhat meaningless without context.)   If Ron and company believe Howell gives them a better chance to win because he knows enough of the playbook, and has better physical tools, he's going to get the nod. Do I expect that to happen by week 1?  I think it's slightly tilted towards TH keeping the backup job, maybe 60/40.

 

However, if Wentz is out for a stretch of 3+ games, I would bet all the money in my left front pocket they would start Howell over TH assuming Howell isn't pooping himself in practice.  

 

And no, nobody is trading for TH.  He has literally no trade value to anybody other than Scott Turner.  As I detailed above, he knows the Coryell/Turner offense.  90% of the league runs the WCO.  Nobody is trading for a physically limited QB who has to learn an entirely new offense.  Literally nobody.   

Cmon. Grossman threw 58%. 20 Ints, 6.9 YPA, Dude had a MUCH worse year than Heinicke. Not saying TH was an all pro, but He was better than Grossman. Point being we won 7 games and had a chance to make the playoffs going into the final stretch before COVID. Talk about having him figured out, but the team was playing with confidence then COVID hit. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Not that am glad that I keep hearing from those watching (not just Paulsen, Keim, Bram) that Wentz's accuracy looks sketchy but its better that its now than later.  Wentz is a perfectionist supposedly -- so whatever is effecting this, I gather he will fix. 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

General accuracy is not one of Wentz strong suits

 

Certainly he should be expected to do better than some of the stuff hes been launching early in camp tho

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listening to Keim and Bram today on a podcast both who are typically higher than most on Wentz.  Summarizing all three practices so far.  

 

A.  Overall "meh" so far in camp.  Overall according to them he hasn't been good, suggest below average on the aggregate.  But at the same time they defend him, saying he's new -- give him time. 

 

B.  Main issue is his accuracy isn't that good especially with intermediate throws -- they say its obvious as heck for anyone watching camp.

 

C.  His best skills so far is the quick game and throwing deep.

 

D.  Keim goes on that he has the right receivers to deal with his accuracy issues -- good catch radius Wrs on the roster.   Bram goes that he used to be really accurate in his prime in Philly and wonders why not now?

 

 

 

 

On the accuracy issue, my question is are the balls still catchable? Because it's different to have catchable but not optimal placement vs just bad throws that aren't catchable. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

On the accuracy issue, my question is are the balls still catchable? Because it's different to have catchable but not optimal placement vs just bad throws that aren't catchable. 

 

I've heard enough to know that he's noticable inaccurate-wild.  Just about everyone who has covered him has said the same.  As for Keim-Bram saying its obvious for anyone watching -- I know what they mean because I've watched camps and its not hard to notice accuracy.  Doesn't take deep thought.  It's obvious for better or worse. And that goes double if you watched other camps over the years where you have other reference points.  

 

So I have heard too many people say the same thing to doubt it.    Having said that, in baseball in particular pitchers tend to be wild early on in Spring Training but then settle down the more they pitch.  I'd worry more if I was hearing this at the end of training camp versus now.

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

2 hours ago, HigSkin said:

 

 

Well that answers that question!

[Franklin60]

I kinda hate weighing on this because I’ve tried to avoid discussions about Carson Wentz. As a lifelong Eagles fan, I invested a lot of emotion into the guy. I loved him as an Eagle, and was gut-punched when they traded him away. I was further disgusted that the Colts traded him away after what was actually a pretty decent year. And it annoys me that he went to a division rival. I still think he’s going to be a good player for y’all. 

 

I will say this about him. His accuracy is never going to be elite. He’s not Drew Brees. He’s just not going to be that guy. But overall I think his accuracy is going to be fine. What you will see, however, is that when his passes are off, they’ll be off high. I think it has to do with the way he sets his legs when he throws, and how he balances himself in his delivery. Perhaps it’s gotten worse since the knee injury. Maybe.

 

One other “heads up” I’ll give you is that he tends to have a lot of passes batted down at the line. He just does, I think it’s because of his longer release. This was something that was even observed in college, and it proved true throughout his time with the Eagles. Can’t say for sure about the Colts. In fact, it was one reason why I always worried when Pederson went for it on fourth down. Because even if the play design worked perfectly, and the receiver was open and the ball was going to be on target, there was always that increased chance it would get knocked down.

 

And speaking of fourth down, Wentz is great at quarterback sneaks. It might seem like a silly thing to comment on. But I assure you it’s legit. I think I only ever saw him get stopped one time.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Franklin60

[TheShredder]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So I have heard too many people say the same thing to doubt it.    Having said that, in baseball in particular pitchers tend to be wild early on in Spring Training but then settle down the more they pitch.  I'd worry more if I was hearing this at the end of training camp versus now.

I can agree with that. When I played competitive baseball, I pitched and played 3rd. Pitching was the focus, so early I'd have issues with sailing 3rd to 1st with over-throws. Always took awhile to get the distance dialed in after so many reps from the mound. You are throwing full strength from different distances, so there's a release point difference. It takes awhile to trim it in.

Wentz has been criticized for short throws but did rep mechanical work in the off-season. Maybe he just need to trim out the distance with intermediate distances.

5 minutes ago, Franklin60 said:

And speaking of fourth down, Wentz is great at quarterback sneaks. It might seem like a silly thing to comment on. But I assure you it’s

legit. I think I only ever saw him get stopped one time.

That's noticed by everyone. Big guy, long limbs, still athletic, I'm pretty sure that's not a secret.

[zCommander]

5 hours ago, redskinss said:

 

 

I can't even blame auto correct on this one. Had grilling on my mind...lol

[HigSkin]

 

[Warhead36]

Wentz has flaws. That's why he was available in the first place. If he was still MVP form from 2017 Wentz he'd still be in Philly.

 

The hope is that we can build an offense around his strengths while coaching up his weaknesses to minimize them somewhat. 

[bowhunter]

16 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

Odd, they showed highlight film for everyone on that list, except for Carson. Brought out his lowlights instead.

[Skinsinparadise]

Listened to Bram and Keim again this time catching up on Keim's appearance on Bram's show.

 

As far as Wentz. 

 

the good

He makes throws that the previous QBs couldn't, some wow stuff in the mix.  Keim also said (and he didn't mean it sarcastically) that Wentz doesn't per se throw a lot of clean balls -- the WRs have to adjust to the throws but he believes this WR crew is perfect for that even Dotson being shortish -- he's still a wide catch radius guy.  The offense is new and these guys need time to adjust to each other.

 

The bad

He's wildly inconsistent and sometimes its evident from throw to throw.  Keim goes that just who he is -- inconsistent.    He's not good at ball placement as for YAC, suggesting WRs have to adjust to his throws versus him hitting WRs in stride so they can get upfield. The YAC stuff is something I noticed in camp years ago from Haskins  (RIP), where the receivers had to adjust back to his throws and that extra second or so that it took to do that allowed the defense to close on the WR fast.

 

 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Sam Howell is gonna be our starter next year. Book it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Wentz has flaws. That's why he was available in the first place. If he was still MVP form from 2017 Wentz he'd still be in Philly.

 

The hope is that we can build an offense around his strengths while coaching up his weaknesses to minimize them somewhat. 

 

Yeah agree.    Wentz IMO has top 10 talent.  But he's not a top 10 QB -- he's more of a #15 type because of his lack of consistency. 

 

We don't need to hear camp reports to know his accuracy is inconsistent.   Career completion rate 62% -- decent but nothing special -- fares worse than that typically with PFF's adjusted accuracy #'s.  I think people like Warren Sharp might be a bit over the top saying he's the least accurate QB in the league -- I guess by his metrics he was the least accurate over the last two season.  If you go through his games, more stinkers than the typical franchise QB but also more great games.  

 

The irony is he in some ways reminds me of Fitz as for his narrative as a player -- stronger arm than Fitz but like Fitz very high highs, very low lows -- ups and downs but more ups.  And then to some extent as I mentioned his narrative reminds me of Kirk.  Kirk is more accurate.  Wentz has the stronger arm.  Both inconsistent but Wentz more inconsistent.  Wentz with more mobility.  Similar narrative as for clutch play and personality.  So lol, maybe a hybrid of Fitz and Kirk in some ways.  

 

I think Wentz has enough weapons here to bring out his best.  I think Rivera is the perfect -- good cop type of coach that Wentz can respond to.  I think Scott Turner's system is more tailored to Wentz's strengths.  So I feel good about how it all goes down.  But if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.  I endorsed this deal mainly because I want a QB with upside.  And Wentz for his faults has plenty of upside much more so than Fitz, Kirk, Alex or name that QB who has played here sans RG3.  If I am going to swing and miss, I want to do it on upside.  And hopefully the swing isn't a miss.

 

My gut right now is Wentz reminds me a bit of a more mobile Mark Rypien.  Rypien wasn't the model of consistency.  But in 1991, when he had great weapons and he found his confidence, he could throw the deep ball with the best of them.  

Edited July 31, 2022 by Skinsinparadise