The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Commander Wolffe]

Brian Robinson could be the best off-season addition outside of Wentz. 

 

More significant then the return of Samuel's and implementing Dotson. The bonus is the rave reviews about Dotson so far. Remember the noise about overdrafting him? He quickly put that **** to bed.

 

~Wolffe 

[TheShredder]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Nobody is going to give up anything for Heinicke.

 

The Browns are having trouble moving Mayfield and he's basically a bigger and more talented Heinicke with an NFL arm.

 

If they can't find a trade partner for him then there's no way anyone is trading for TH.

 

We might be able to get a 6th or 7th for him. IMO he's more valuable to us as a decent backup than that 6th round pick.

I was surprised hearing TH say that he had trained in the off-season to build "ARM STRENGTH" for the first time...WTF!?

After hearing him say that, I don't respect his story. He deserves what he's earned, which is still a huge accomplishment as an NFL backup.

I'd rather have Sam Howell get some experience then see Heinicke in most scenarios except 1 or 2 game fill in duty.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

I have a strong feeling that Heinicke will be like Rex was to Kyle and Colt to Jay. Not the perfect QB, but they're favorites to be a  backup and come in in garbage time to secure a win. 

He will be for one more year.  But they drafted Howell.  So Howell will replace TH. 
 

It would be a real indictment of Howell’s development if they resigned TH. 

 

[TheShredder]

6 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The issue is the Browns need to find somebody to take Mayfield.

Yeah I wasn't talking about adding Mayfield, rather getting something for Heinicke.

Heinicke pissed in my Cheerios when he disclosed he'd never trained to increase arm strength before this year.

That's negligence.

[Skinsinparadise]

Article I found from the Athletic.  This is from the 2020 season so Wentz's low point.  

 

I generally post the sunshine stuff about Wentz, here's some negative.  but I don't really take this all as negative.

 

My takeaway is he needs good O line protection, weapons, scheme -- basically to rebuild his confidence.  Hopefully all that is here. 

 

 

[philibusters]

17 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He will be for one more year.  But they drafted Howell.  So Howell will replace TH. 
 

It would be a real indictment of Howell’s development if they resigned TH. 

 

 

I don't see why Heincke cannot be the third string guy.

[mistertim]

22 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

I was surprised hearing TH say that he had trained in the off-season to build "ARM STRENGTH" for the first time...WTF!?

After hearing him say that, I don't respect his story. He deserves what he's earned, which is still a huge accomplishment as an NFL backup.

I'd rather have Sam Howell get some experience then see Heinicke in most scenarios except 1 or 2 game fill in duty.

 

I really don't buy the idea of NFL QBs improving their arm strength in any noticeable way.

 

I think that's mostly just something you have or you don't.

 

You can learn proper technique to maximize your natural arm talent, but it's like a vertical leap: if you have a 30 inch vertical all the technique work in the world won't give you a 40 inch vertical. 

 

I remember reading about how Colt McCoy had been training a ton in a couple of off-seasons to improve his arm strength, but there was still basically no difference on the field. 

[TheShredder]

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I really don't buy the idea of NFL QBs improving their arm strength in any noticeable way.

 

I think that's mostly just something you have or you don't.

 

You can learn proper technique to maximize your natural arm talent, but it's like a vertical leap: if you have a 30 inch vertical all the technique work in the world won't give you a 40 inch vertical. 

 

I remember reading about how Colt McCoy had been training a ton in a couple of off-seasons to improve his arm strength, but there was still basically no difference on the field. 

I train Pro athletes at my clinic in Bangkok.

You can strengthen any muscle, for sure. However the throwing mechanism isn't really muscle strength relative exactly. From what I understand it's ligaments, tendons, with muscle and mechanics to created a slingshot affects. Athletes have to train with bands, weighted footballs, and it takes months into years to reach goals. So, yeah if you never even started that process with the vision of being professional, that's negligence. The only quotes coming from a pro, who throws for a living, about training for arm strength should be that it was a focal point in the off-season, NOT 'I never did that before'.

[Die Hard]

https://fansided.com/2022/06/17/colts-nyheim-hines-carson-wentz-criticism-matt-ryan-praise/

 

“He’s not missing the lay-ups,” said Hines to the Indianapolis Star about Ryan’s accuracy out of the backfield.

“Every year, it’s all dependent on what the quarterback likes, his accuracy. Matt is checking all the boxes. It’s been like playing with Andrew (Luck) or Phillip (Rivers),” Hines also added.

[redskinss]

The more articles that xome out attacking wentz the better I feel about the trade. 

They wouldn't be trashing him so much if they weren't worried he may make them look like fools.

 

[Commander Wolffe]

Some teams are given the benefit of the doubt. Us? We get the polar opposite in a hyper negative fashion.

 

We just need to win. Until then, every move we make will be viewed from a negative lens. That's why I ride with this squad. When we win, ain't nobody saying **** to me.

 

~Wolffe 

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Yeah I wasn't talking about adding Mayfield, rather getting something for Heinicke.

We’re not picking up $18m for a backup QB.  
 

That basically ends any chance of Mayfield here. 

4 hours ago, philibusters said:

 

I don't see why Heincke cannot be the third string guy.

Because he’s want to be paid like the second string guy.  I don’t even think it’s possible to pay him less than Howell.

[moondog]

Like many businesses, the NFL says it cares about something but it really doesn’t. They only care in so much as it makes them look good in the public eye. They can talk all they want about mental health but concussions, as an example, only matter to them because it keeps marquee players off the field. 
 

I’ve talked to and worked with multiple former NFL team athletic trainers and they mostly say the same thing - teams treat them like garbage with low pay, high hours and little respect. That’s not universal to the best organizations but it’s more usual than not. 
 

If you have all the money in the world and you want to win, you pay the best people market or above and you show them you value them. That includes every employee you employ. 
 

It’s pretty clear Wentz is hypercritical of himself. That’s not uncommon among high performing individuals regardless of career field. Especially those that have experience highs then traumatic lows. If I were the commanders, I’d be paying top dollar for a sports psychologist for Carson cuz it’s clear he gets in his own head despite the elite skill set that I think we can all agree he possesses. 
 

You pay the athletes well. But just as importantly you should be paying everyone in the building well and hiring the best and showing them you care about them to build the best organization and to support those at the top…aka your athletes. 
 

This is why our organization fails. There’s zero ownership or accountability at the top. Everyone is a POS employee that’s replaceable to Snyder and that spreads like cancer. Because he doesn’t take ownership of his own load of ****. 
 

Rivera has gone miles to fix that but there’s always more to be done. 
 

To help Carson get back to what he was and could be, they need to give him the support. I think he has that in terms of on field talent around him to help in protection, short, intermediate and deep receivers. I think he has that in an innovative coordinator that he can follow through with. 
 

But Carson is make or break in whether or not they can get him to play confident within the offense, take what it gives him and support him to mentally be there for that. I hope the coaches can reach him on that level but I’d also be paying top dollar for mental health experts to support bringing that out of him. 

[TheShredder]

29 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We’re not picking up $18m for a backup QB

Exactly! Never was saying anything about getting Mayfield. I think you misunderstood my thought about comparing Mayfield to Heinicke. The thought was if anyone would pay Mayfield 18M why not just go after Heinicke for 2M instead as he had better numbers. I don't like Mayfield one bit and his attitude is garbage. 🍻

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Exactly! Never was saying anything about getting Mayfield. I think you misunderstood my thought about comparing Mayfield to Heinicke. The thought was if anyone would pay Mayfield 18M why not just go after Heinicke for 2M instead as he had better numbers. I don't like Mayfield one bit and his attitude is garbage. 🍻

Ok got it. 
 

TH doesn’t have starter skills.  Mayfield does.  If you’re trading for one of them, you go for the guy with potential.  
 

The issue is his $18M salary. 

[kingdaddy]

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

TH doesn’t have starter skills.  Mayfield does.  If you’re trading for one of them, you go for the guy with potential.  

Check out and compare Mayfields stats vs TH's in 2021 and you'll see that TH would be the better QB to trade for and that doesn't even get into how their contracts compare. TH had a better season, in his first as a starter, with much less offensive skill talent around him. Mayfield had Landry, Beckham and Chubb and still sucked. If Mayfield had any potential I'm sure the Browns would be investing in his future. Buyer beware on him.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, kingdaddy said:

Check out and compare Mayfields stats vs TH's in 2021 and you'll see that TH would be the better QB to trade for and that doesn't even get into how their contracts compare. TH had a better season, in his first as a starter, with much less offensive skill talent around him. Mayfield had Landry, Beckham and Chubb and still sucked. If Mayfield had any potential I'm sure the Browns would be investing in his future. Buyer beware on him.

Yeah, but we know TH is at his ceiling.  Or at least that’s the going impression of our coaches and FO. Baker might be, or might not be.  
 

Nobody is trading for TH to be a long term starter.  If somebody wants to take a flier on a guy, it would be Baker.

 

That said, nobody is trading for Baker with a 18m salary.

 

Other folks have said this, but Baker is basically a more talented Taylor. 
 

Baker probably gets one more starting opportunity on potential.  Hienecke might get another backup opportunity.

 

Thats just probably what happens, not whether I think is right or wrong….

[TheShredder]

5 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Check out and compare Mayfields stats vs TH's in 2021 and you'll see that TH would be the better QB to trade for and that doesn't even get into how their contracts compare.

Yeah, that was my point in asking the question. I don't like Mayfiel at all, but he does have a naturally stronger arm.

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Nobody is trading for TH to be a long term starter.  If somebody wants to take a flier on a guy, it would be Baker.

I think that's the feeling everyone gets after watching him for a year. Is it fair? I think so.

He doesn't have a naturally strong enough arm and hasn't worked on it until critics pointed out the obvious.

I think he got what he deserved. Just wish he played a little better to get some trade value.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 hours ago, TheShredder said:

I think that's the feeling everyone gets after watching him for a year. Is it fair? I think so.

He doesn't have a naturally strong enough arm and hasn't worked on it until critics pointed out the obvious.

I think he got what he deserved. Just wish he played a little better to get some trade value.

Look, you can't really increase arm strength to the degree that TH needs to in order to be an NFL starting, week in and week out QB.  He might have worked on it a bit, it might have helped a bit, but there is nothing he could really do to give him the arm talent needed to be an NFL starter.  If there was, you'd see a whole lot more guys improve their arm strength over time.  You don't.  Chad Pennington, who could have been a top 5 QB, but had a bottom 5 arm (though still stronger than TH's), would have done anything to improve his velocity.  (Then he got hurt and was out of the league as a starter pretty quickly.)

 

What Taylor could improve is his mechanics, and more often get his "top velocity" on the ball because of the more consistent.  When he sets and throws and gets his legs into the throws, he can, at times, get some velocity on the ball.   So learning to throw from a proper base more often, better footwork, arm mechanics, etc. It's still not great, but it would help.  

 

But he's never going to be able to work himself even into an average NFL arm.  And the video cuts of Training Camp this year, and the reporting, both indicate that. And finally, QBs need to have the extra arm strength because they will have to throw when they can't step into throws, have to throw over and around defenders with odd arm angles.  

 

So, unless a team is in complete and total dire straights, and need a starter due to injury, there is no way TH sees the field for any team.  He wasn't going to last year until Fitz got hurt, he won't this year unless Wentz gets hurt.

 

The only time you see trades of backup QBs is if there is an OC who is familiar with them who takes a HC or another OC job and wants a QB who knows there system on the roster.  We traded for Todd Collins when we hired Al Saunders, and somehow got Rex (I can't remember, trade or FA) when we landed Kyle Shanahan.  That's not the case with TH, because Scott Turner is still here.

 

Ergo, no team is trading for TH under most scenarios.   

 

Now, if there was a serious injury in camp for some other team, and a starter was lost for the season, and the backup QB on their roster was either an unprepared rookie or they didn't think was good enough to start 17 games, and they wanted to bring in somebody with some starting experience who has shown mobility, fight, grit and the ability to make plays, might they give Ron a ringy-ding to see what it would cost to get Taylor?  Maybe.  But probably not, because the majority of TH's playing career has been for the Turner's who are some of the last coaches out there who use the number-based Coryell system, not the language based WCO.  So there would be a steep in-camp learning curve for Taylor. 

 

Is it possible?  Yeah.  Do I think it's likely?  No.

 

And TH has more value to THIS team than a 6th or 7th round pick. Or even a 5th round pick.  (If somebody offered a 3rd or 4th I'd grab it in a heart beat, but that's not going to happen.) He is a good backup who has played and knows the system.  If something happens to Wentz, he can go in and finish a game.  That is valuable, so I doubt they would trade him this year.

 

Now, it's also important to recognize they drafted his replacement.  You don't pick a QB in the 5th if you don't think they can at least ascend to the backup job in a year.  So, this is most likely TH's last year on this team.  Will he get picked up elsewhere?  Who knows.  Kyle Allen landed with the Texans shortly after FA started.  So, maybe. That will be a question for next year.  

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Conn]

14 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Check out and compare Mayfields stats vs TH's in 2021 and you'll see that TH would be the better QB to trade for and that doesn't even get into how their contracts compare. TH had a better season, in his first as a starter, with much less offensive skill talent around him. Mayfield had Landry, Beckham and Chubb and still sucked. If Mayfield had any potential I'm sure the Browns would be investing in his future. Buyer beware on him.

I’m not here to defend Baker Mayfield as a franchise caliber QB, but I have to point out that it’s extremely well-documented that he played through tons of injuries that he shouldn’t have last year, putting his body on the line because the Browns had nothing else. The fact that they chose to go all-in on Watson says more about the Browns than it does Mayfield, even if I only think he’s average. He’s been better than 2021 in the past, and it’s a joke to compare him to Heinicke as a QB talent imo. 

[Skinsinparadise]

By the time the season starts between the national media/blogs, etc -- at this pace, Wentz will be considered a below average backup. 🙄

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

17 hours ago, moondog said:

Like many businesses, the NFL says it cares about something but it really doesn’t. They only care in so much as it makes them look good in the public eye. They can talk all they want about mental health but concussions, as an example, only matter to them because it keeps marquee players off the field. 
 

I’ve talked to and worked with multiple former NFL team athletic trainers and they mostly say the same thing - teams treat them like garbage with low pay, high hours and little respect. That’s not universal to the best organizations but it’s more usual than not. 
 

If you have all the money in the world and you want to win, you pay the best people market or above and you show them you value them. That includes every employee you employ. 
 

It’s pretty clear Wentz is hypercritical of himself. That’s not uncommon among high performing individuals regardless of career field. Especially those that have experience highs then traumatic lows. If I were the commanders, I’d be paying top dollar for a sports psychologist for Carson cuz it’s clear he gets in his own head despite the elite skill set that I think we can all agree he possesses. 
 

You pay the athletes well. But just as importantly you should be paying everyone in the building well and hiring the best and showing them you care about them to build the best organization and to support those at the top…aka your athletes. 
 

This is why our organization fails. There’s zero ownership or accountability at the top. Everyone is a POS employee that’s replaceable to Snyder and that spreads like cancer. Because he doesn’t take ownership of his own load of ****. 
 

Rivera has gone miles to fix that but there’s always more to be done. 
 

To help Carson get back to what he was and could be, they need to give him the support. I think he has that in terms of on field talent around him to help in protection, short, intermediate and deep receivers. I think he has that in an innovative coordinator that he can follow through with. 
 

But Carson is make or break in whether or not they can get him to play confident within the offense, take what it gives him and support him to mentally be there for that. I hope the coaches can reach him on that level but I’d also be paying top dollar for mental health experts to support bringing that out of him. 

 

Agree this isn't the most nuturing environment for any player.  IMO the only saving grace from the team not being a total joke on that front is Ron who has amazing people skills and exudes class. 

 

Bram on Keim's podcast today talked about this some.  His point from watching Wentz in camp is the X factor in his view will be Carson's confidence.  He thought based on what he saw that Carson really excels at the quick game, three step throws where he gets the ball out fast, shallow crosses, etc -- not dump offs to the RB.  He wondered based on what he saw in camp that the team is testing his deep throwing maybe too much.  His thought was give him the easy layups to build his confidence and then throw down the field.

 

But I thought it was interesting that Bram of all things picked Wentz's confidence as the main X factor to his season. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[moondog]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree this isn't the most nuturing environment for any player.  IMO the only saving grace from the team not being a total joke on that front is Ron who has amazing people skills and exudes class. 

 

Bram on Keim's podcast today talked about this some.  His point from watching Wentz in camp is the X factor in his view will be Carson's confidence.  He thought based on what he saw that Carson really excels at the quick game, three step throws where he gets the ball out fast, shallow crosses, etc -- not dump offs to the RB.  He wondered based on what he saw in camp that the team is testing his deep throwing maybe too much.  His thought was give him the easy layups to build his confidence and then throw down the field.

 

But I thought it was interesting that Bram of all things picked Wentz's confidence as the main X factor to his season. 

Ironically the article you posted early and the quote from Hines in Indy about Ryan hitting all the layups speak to the oddity that Wentz has historically struggled in the short game even during his good years which was surprising to me. Now granted that references screens and shorter passes not specifically the shallow crossers etc but it’s definitely something to keep an eye on. 
 

One would think a tall QB like him should be able to see those shorter to shallow intermediate routes very well for the layups. It’s a big part of our offense to include using the RBs so hopefully he can figure out his issues there and use it to build his confidence in the face of pressure knowing he has several very skilled pass catchers that should always have mismatches out of the backfield or to get the ball to quickly. 

[Chris 44]

59 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

By the time the season starts between the national media/blogs, etc -- at this pace, Wentz will be considered a below average backup. 🙄

 

 

 

If he was still at Indy they would rate him a solid 15th