The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

That youtube video is a good summary of the backdrop around the Wentz narrative this coming season.

 

Critcism again (Riddick, Hasselbeck, Todd McShay) centers on him not playing well in big spots and being a questionable leader.  Watching that it also is another double down from the Colts about how Matt Ryan is a breath of fresh air -- good leader, etc -- and the wicked witch is dead now, etc.  I notice a lot of good vibes emanating from the Colts already about Ryan.

 

I am one of the bigger Matt Ryan fans here.  Some here seem to think he's just a marginally good player.  But IMO he's been one of the better QBs in the league and better than what I'd call the 2nd tier of QBs -- Kirk, Wentz, Carr, etc.  He's been consistently IMO in that 7-10 range of the best QBs in the league for most of his career.  I don't think he gets as much respect as he should because he doesn't have freakish traits.   

 

And yeah in theory at least he brings the exact assets that some within the Cots organization have criticized in Wentz -- clutch play, consistency and leadership.

 

But IMO they are missing a major plot line with Ryan and that is was his decent but meh season last year a fluke or a portent for a career decline?

 

Yeah if Ryan was 29 like Wentz IMO it would be a joke to compare the two.  Ryan would be the better get IMO by a mile.  But at this age its much more up for debate IMO.

 

Will see, this being another in a zillion examples, I can't recall a starting QB being this level crapped on in the NFL.  My youngish son who loves watching youtube videos for example and watched his share of Wentz takes thinks I am a homer and on drugs for pushing Wentz -- he's convinced he sucks.  And I can usually convince him to be hyped about acquisitions.

 

I thought the Kirk hate here and to an extent with some in the media was intense.  But Wentz is like 10 times more intense than the hits Kirk takes.   My main hope is its true that he's competitive as heck and he uses it as fuel because man there is plenty of fuel.  Heck even in that Torrey Smith GMF push of Wentz, I watched the full thing and the GMF crew who tend to be sunny optimists crapped a little on Wentz. 

 

 

 

 

Then upon meeting with him over Zoom, the organization’s brass immediately felt it was the right move.

“An instant connection,” said Reich via Zak Keefer of The Athletic. “He’s his own guy. He’s not like anybody else. … I felt a little bit of Peyton and a little bit of Philip. But he’s Matt Ryan. You could just feel his presence.”

Before meeting with Ryan over Zoom and essentially being sold right then and there, Reich put on the tape from the last three seasons. Looking to see if there were any diminishing traits that could be a concern, Reich came away with the notion that Ryan still has it.

“I didn’t see any diminishing skills,” Reich said.

 

https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2022/03/29/indianapolis-colts-matt-ryan-instant-connection/

Edited May 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

Heck, Bruce (for all of his faults) moved on quickly from Kirk and never said anything bad about him publicly after trading for Alex.  Randy Mueller (former NFL GM) was on twitter and said why are the Colts continuing to badmouth Wentz?  He was like just move on.  It seems pretty classless.  Just say something to the effect of it didn't work out and we wish him the best.

 

There's a phrase I can't remember right now, but it goes something like... Those who lack conviction of a decision will talk endlessly to convince themselves.

[Koolblue13]

The Wentz hate is so over the top. He's got some questions and some legit ability and I can see the negativity and the reason for optimism.

 

It's the best case scenario for us at QB and everyone already hates our team.  

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

3 hours ago, Burgold said:

The NFL is weird in that somehow there are bad teams who somehow match up really well. The Giants, by and large, have been a bad team for a long time. As bad and probably worse than Washington. Still, they've had our number. For whatever reason, we really struggle against them.

That's so true. It's really inexplicable.

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I don't doubt that, in fact its quite true.

 

What I'm saying is there are far better examples of Wentz disparaging than Ballad saying they would have to partake in some hard conversations about QB even if they reached the playoffs. What happened in that game, or previous games does not matter too much in such a discussion. The Colts history w/ the Jags has no effect on what Ballad said yesterday not being nearly as incendiary as some of the other stuff that has been spoken. By comparison his words were tepid at best.

 

 

This is the second time someone has tried to rationalize that game in a response to my line of thinking about Ballads words. If multiple people see my claim about his interview as some kind of statement that purely focuses on Indy getting beat by Jax, then I'll have to be clearer in the future as that was not my intent at all.

I wasn't suggesting that you were saying that. I just said that on my own volition because the Jaguar stuff annoys me. I get what you are/were saying.

[Number 44]

3 hours ago, Burgold said:

The NFL is weird in that somehow there are bad teams who somehow match up really well. The Giants, by and large, have been a bad team for a long time. As bad and probably worse than Washington. Still, they've had our number. For whatever reason, we really struggle against them.

[Conn]

This isn’t fair to him but all this makes me want Matt Ryan to hit the age wall harder than anyone. Sorry, but I want him to suck out loud in a really laughable way. 

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

1 hour ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

Heck, Bruce (for all of his faults) moved on quickly from Kirk and never said anything bad about him publicly after trading for Alex.  Randy Mueller (former NFL GM) was on twitter and said why are the Colts continuing to badmouth Wentz?  He was like just move on.  It seems pretty classless.  Just say something to the effect of it didn't work out and we wish him the best.

Definitely classless. Maybe even unprecedented for a front office to talk this much trash about a qb, after trading them. It's a bit outta control.

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

I saw a tweet saying Howell is Heinicke 2.0. What the crap? Doesn't Sam have a great arm and arguably the best deep ball of anyone in the draft? I like several attributes of TH but his deep ball is hideous. With guys like Terry, Curtis, Dyami, and Jahan, I think Wentz and eventually Howell's strong arms will make a world of difference. Atleast I hope and pray so. Is it too much to ask for the first 11 win season in 3 decades? Is it too much to ask for just one playoff victory for the first time in 14 years? I know the front office has been unethical and probably criminal over the last couple of decades but that's not our fault! We fans deserve some happiness for once! In a fair world, Wentz will be really good for 3 or 4 years and Howell will be a franchise qb for 10 - 13 years! I probably am asking too much 😢

Edited May 7, 2022 by AlwaysBeRedskins2Me

[KDawg]

35 minutes ago, AlwaysBeRedskins2Me said:

I saw a tweet saying Howell is Heinicke 2.0. What the crap? Doesn't Sam have a great arm and arguably the best deep ball of anyone in the draft? I like several attributes of TH but his deep ball is hideous. With guys like Terry, Curtis, Dyami, and Jahan, I think Wentz and eventually Howell's strong arms will make a world of difference. Atleast I hope and pray so. Is it too much to ask for the first 11 win season in 3 decades? Is it too much to ask for just one playoff victory for the first time in 14 years? I know the front office has been unethical and probably criminal over the last couple of decades but that's not our fault! We fans deserve some happiness for once! In a fair world, Wentz will be really food for 3 or 4 years and Howell will be a franchise qb for 10 - 13 years! I probably am asking too much 😢

 

Cooley mentioned Heinicke for Howell comp... but did so with the caveat that Howell is a better armed Heinicke. Well, Sheehan interjected after Cooley said, "Howell is a lot like Heinicke, actually" (paraphrased). Sheehan said, "But with a stronger arm." (paraphrased). Cooley responded, quickly, "Yes, stronger arm". 

 

I don't think that's a great comp. I think Heinicke is shiftier and more physical as a runner. Howell is a bit more wiggly than people give credit for but he's not the kind of fearless runner Heinicke is. He takes some hits he shouldn't though for sure. But he doesn't lay his career on the line on every run, likely because he's got some kind of career goals

 

But they are both really tough quarterbacks and possess a lot of the nuanced QB skills and navigate the pocket really well at times and sometimes they forget there are rushers coming.

 

But the arm is the big difference and a Heinicke with an arm sounds appealing as hell to me. 

[Burgold]

16 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

But the arm is the big difference and a Heinicke with an arm sounds appealing as hell to me. 

The arm thing is the thing. If Heinicke had a pro arm he had the potential to be a really excellent QB. I mean, he's got all the intangibles, escapability, ability to read a defense, anticipation, he just doesn't have the arm to get it done.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

This isn’t fair to him but all this makes me want Matt Ryan to hit the age wall harder than anyone. Sorry, but I want him to suck out loud in a really laughable way. 

That's pure buffalo. 93'd

[Skinsinparadise]

This is all I need to see, I am sure @KDawg agrees.  Time to make Howell #2.

 

Actually in all seriouness, Riddick mentions Howell starting this season.  He's not the only one.  So with all the backdrop I bet if Wentx doesn't catch fire right away (I am optimistic about Wentz's season though) i bet we here more Howell talk.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Conn said:

This isn’t fair to him but all this makes me want Matt Ryan to hit the age wall harder than anyone. Sorry, but I want him to suck out loud in a really laughable way. 

 

lol, yeah me too.

 

I don't care if a team wants to believe in whatever. Most teams naturally believe that their new guy beats the old guy they let go.  But the level of obnoxiouness from the Colts on this is off the charts.  I usually go to one road game a year, I am heavily leaning the Indy game right now.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

The Wentz hate is so over the top. He's got some questions and some legit ability and I can see the negativity and the reason for optimism.

 

It's the best case scenario for us at QB and everyone already hates our team.  

 

I also think it might be a good omen.  The national media while makes fun of this team being "off season champions" (even though the term is so outdated for this team) they are somewhat complicit in why they are crowned.  They seem to love most of the moves they made in real time. 

 

I can't recall a move this team has made that has been crapped on like this.  So since its the opposite of the typical reception they get -- maybe the opposite result also happens here.

 

The part that grates on me the most is this idea from the national media that Ballard can do no wrong and is sharper than the rest of the NFL.  He's sort of regarded as the Belichick of the GM world along with Decosta.    I even go along with the idea that I believe that Ballard outwitted both this FO and the Falcons FO as for trade compensation -- so if the national media wants to suck up to him, OK.    But IMO they take it way too far.  I got two beefs with it.

 

A.  Since when did acquring a QB with Wentz's type of upside foolish?  Carolina gave up almost the same to get Sam Darnold and were hailed as geniuses at the time.  

 

B.  The narrative about Ballard is that he's the classiest GM in the league.  Adopts fosters kid, never lies -- he's billed as a Joe Gibbs kind of character.  I think the whole Wentz trade exposes that as somewhat of a sham.  Ballard IMO showing no class to Wentz and no class to the Commanders.  He's not overtly doing it but his statements only fuel the narrative that he outwitted both this team and the Falcons.  Even if he believes it, you don't flaunt it.

 

Keeping to that same theme, Irsay's comments about the Jaguars as if they are some kind of JV joke of a team, I think will haunt them for years.  That's bulletin board material I think for years.  You'd think the Colts had a run like the Patriots they way they talk about themselves -- the level of arrogance from that organization is off the charts.   The nicest takeaway about their comments about Wentz and that trade is Wentz isn't up to the Colts "standards" but heck maybe he's fine for more of a bottom feeder organization like the Commanders.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[LD0506]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I can't recall a move this team has made that has been crapped on like this.  So since its the opposite of the typical reception they get -- maybe the opposite result also happens here.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

The part that grates on my the most is this idea from the national media that Ballard can do no wrong and is sharper than the rest of the NFL.  He's sort of regarded as the Belichick of the GM world along with Decosta.    I even go along with the idea that I believe that Ballard outwitted both this FO and the Falcons FO as for trade compensation -- so if the national media wants to suck up to him, OK.    But IMO they take it way too far.  I got two beefs with it.

They basically made the same trade for Wentz a year earlier and completely lost on it. The picks they got from us, was hardly saving face. I'm sure Howie enjoyed it.

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This is all I need to see, I am sure @KDawg agrees.  Time to make Howell #2.

 

Actually in all seriouness, Riddick mentions Howell starting this season.  He's not the only one.  So with all the backdrop I bet if Wentx doesn't catch fire right away (I am optimistic about Wentz's season though) i bet we here more Howell talk.

 

 

 

 

lol, yeah me too.

 

I don't care if a team wants to believe in whatever. Most teams naturally believe that their new guy beats the old guy they let go.  But the level of obnoxiouness from the Colts on this is off the charts.  I usually go to one road game a year, I am heavily leaning the Indy game right now.

Someone on twitter saw that pass and said " easily picked, telegraphed the whole way, ball tap, lets the defenders know when it's coming, team won't win a game. "  Holy crap. I don't even know where to begin with this one. It's one of the most ludicrous comments that I've seen in a long time. Criticizing him a week after the draft, because of a pass in practice? Then saying we won't win any games? Geez, talk about hyperbole. Smh.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

According to a Colts reporter I listened to was there was a build up all season that Carson didn't play well in big moments during the games.  

... Edited for brevity)

 

Yeah, I heard the Cosell thing.  The thing is, I think there's a chicken or the egg thing there too.  They had the best RB in football.  

 

Wentz played really well at times last season, and arguably his best game was the Arizona win, which was the third to last game of the season, where he made some critical plays to help them win, especially the TD at the end of the game to give them the lead.  

 

I think when folks point to "they leaned more on Taylor" they look at a couple games specifically, and maybe one more than any other, the win over the Patriots.  

 

In that game, Jonathan Taylor went for 29 carries for 179 yards, a TD and a 5.9 YPC average.  Wentz was 5/12 for 57 yards, a TD and INT.  (This is not so good.)  The Colts won the game 27 - 17. NOTE: The score is a bit misleading because the Colts blocked a FG and returned it for a TD.  They got a lead, and sat on it. They scored a TD on their second drive, then had the Blocked FG returned for a TD, then got a FG, and were up 17-0 at the half.  With the best RB in football already having a very good day.  There was no need to throw the ball in the second half, really.  

 

It's one of the more bizarre box scores I've seen.  The colts actually were only 2/10 on third down (though they were 3/3 on 4th down), were outgained, had less plays, and only had a plus 1 in turnover margin.  They had a 40 second advantage in TOP.

 

Also FWIW, the Patriots ALMOST came back in this game. They were down 20-0, and managed to pull it back to 20-17 before JT ripped off a 67 yard TD run to ice the game.  

 

By all measures, Wentz was dreadful.  And JT was superman.  But at the same time, it's also really hard to judge a QB on 12 pass attempts. A few interesting tidbits:

 

Though, something interesting in this game: Wentz really DID impact it with his legs.  He picked up several 1st downs rushing, both on 3rd and 4th downs.  

 

There are a few other games like this.  There is no question Wentz was absolutely terrible throwing the ball.  But a lot of his passes were in known passing situations, he DID contribute very significantly with his legs.  

 

Anyway, I also think this is the risk of having this type of game plan, you never allow your QB to get into any rhythm whatsoever, and you count on them always completing plays in high-leverage, known passing situations. Which reduces your margin of error.  The best example I can think of where this worked to perfection was the win over Tampa last year when TH played the best game of his career, and kept on making 3rd down conversion after 3rd down conversion.  If they miss on a couple of those, the WFT looses that game going away.  So if you DON'T convert on 3rd down, you are always in really tight games, like the 2 17-15 wins at the end of the winning streak.  The Colts were dreadful on 3rd down, but survived.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This is all I need to see, I am sure @KDawg agrees.  Time to make Howell #2.

 

Actually in all seriouness, Riddick mentions Howell starting this season.  He's not the only one.  So with all the backdrop I bet if Wentx doesn't catch fire right away (I am optimistic about Wentz's season though) i bet we here more Howell talk.

I know you're joking, but that wasn't all that impressive a pass. Once I see him rifle one, or throw one 60 yards, I'd be happy to send TH his pink slip and a plane ticket to sister's couch.  

 

I am starting to lump Riddick into that category of flunked out executives that is just trying to stay relevant by saying stupid things. Wasn't he also the guy who was all over Haskins from the start?  

 

If Wentz doesn't play well in the first 8 games, there are going to be problems.  Does that lead to Howell or TH, I don't know.  But I've said this before, Wentz HAS to have a good start to the season, and Ron CAN'T ride him the entire season if he's struggling.  If he is struggling, they have to get him out and preserve the 2nd round pick next year.

 

The absolute disaster scenario is Wentz sucks, they play him all year, the 3rd becomes a second, then they release him and try and get another QB.  I really, really like Ron and I'm not sure who else they could get who would be better.  But if THAT scenario played out, I think it's a "gots to go" situation.  Fireable offense.    

 

That's the only situation they have to guard against.  Just about anything else is acceptable except that.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I know you're joking, but that wasn't all that impressive a pass. Once I see him rifle one, or throw one 60 yards, I'd be happy to send TH his pink slip and a plane ticket to sister's couch.  

 

 

Not impressive or unimpressive, you couldn't really see the A-B of that pass.  So yeah I was joking.  😀

 

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I

I am starting to lump Riddick into that category of flunked out executives that is just trying to stay relevant by saying stupid things. Wasn't he also the guy who was all over Haskins from the start?  

 

 

He was all over Haskins, yep.

 

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

The absolute disaster scenario is Wentz sucks, they play him all year, the 3rd becomes a second, then they release him and try and get another QB.  I really, really like Ron and I'm not sure who else they could get who would be better.  But if THAT scenario played out, I think it's a "gots to go" situation.  Fireable offense.    

 

That's the only situation they have to guard against.  Just about anything else is acceptable except that.  

 

Yeah I think the only downside of all the media backlast to the Wentz deal is it sets up a narrative that Rivera was swindled by the Colts.  And if anything I think Ballard is doubling down on that rheotric.  I am sure that its not Ballard's intention but in effect what he's doing it taunting both Wentz and Ron.  

 

So i think Ron either energes as the hero on the deal, he went against the grain and he emerged on top or he's going to look like the dunce that the national and to some extent the local media believe he is specfically as to this deal.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Mrshadow008]

I would bet money Carson Wentz has a better season than Matt Ryan. This isnt some kinda homerism or bias either. What is the biggest thing most of us have pointed out about this team compared to the Colts? The o-line. Espn had Colts as 22nd in pass pro PFF had them as what 30th I think? One of the huge differences between these two in their athleticism. Wentz has the ability to move around, run a little bit if necessary, etc. Matt Ryan has never been the most nimble guy as is but at 37 he's not suddenly going to get more nimble. Personally I think the colts lack of weapons plus that poor pass pro means Ryan is going to get killed early and often

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I know you're joking, but that wasn't all that impressive a pass. Once I see him rifle one, or throw one 60 yards, I'd be happy to send TH his pink slip and a plane ticket to sister's couch.  

 

I am starting to lump Riddick into that category of flunked out executives that is just trying to stay relevant by saying stupid things. Wasn't he also the guy who was all over Haskins from the start?  

 

If Wentz doesn't play well in the first 8 games, there are going to be problems.  Does that lead to Howell or TH, I don't know.  But I've said this before, Wentz HAS to have a good start to the season, and Ron CAN'T ride him the entire season if he's struggling.  If he is struggling, they have to get him out and preserve the 2nd round pick next year.

 

The absolute disaster scenario is Wentz sucks, they play him all year, the 3rd becomes a second, then they release him and try and get another QB.  I really, really like Ron and I'm not sure who else they could get who would be better.  But if THAT scenario played out, I think it's a "gots to go" situation.  Fireable offense.    

 

That's the only situation they have to guard against.  Just about anything else is acceptable except that.  

Wentz will be fine...we play the easiest schedule in the league and the defense has to be better than it was last season. He won't be asked to win game by himself, just don't turn the ball over. If he picks up the offense quickly he'll be fine and so will the team. 

[Thinking Skins]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Bruce wasn't as bad with Kirk I agree but he's the closest to the Colts on this front.  With the weird press release.  And he and Dan like to do their hits with leaks and did so to Kirk among others they kicked out the door.  But yeah outside of the press release they didn't do their thing publicly. 

 

But the lack of class I'd expect from Bruce and Dan.  And also I can't recall them crapping on a team they made a trade with.  That's IMO out of bounds.  I am surprised Ballard who is considered as being a super nice guy and classy typically is constantly going into the gutter with Wentz.

 

And yeah I'd hesitate to make a deal with Ballard again.   This team is practically a league punchline (unjustifably IMO) for making the trade with the Colts and that Ballard played this FO like a fiddle.  And Ballard instead of propping this team up for the deal which is typical protocl -- instead he is basically screaming to the league darn right i played the Commanders like a fiddle.  We got a bounty for our trash.    To me its really ugly stuff both from the perspective of them piling on Wentz and also basically ridiculing their trade partners in the process.

Here's my question and its not really Wentz related. But what does this do for the Colts in terms of other players? Will they look at the Wentz situation and say look at how they're doing him, that's not a place I want to be? Is it making them look ?good? I agree with the Junkies who said that if you want them to stop dogging him, stop asking the same question and expecting a different answer, I kinda get that. But at some point you've just gotta say I've answered that already lets move on. 

[Forever A Redskin]

I find it hard to believe this guy is as hated as people say he is.

 

 

If we get even 75 percent of the player in this video, we're gonna be in really really good shape the next 3 years. On a reasonable cap hit too...

 

Just enough time for Sam Howell to perfect his mechanics and footwork and learn the offense inside and out.

[evmiii]

Carson refused a COVID shot extremely pissing off the owner and played  poorly (along with the rest of the team) in an important game against the worst team in the league and became the scapegoat for all that was wrong in Indy.  For 13 weeks he had a top 10 QBR and they won 11 games, for four weeks he wasn’t.  I don’t know how well he will play in Washington, but I do believe he is the best QB we have had in many years.  I don’t know what kind of leader he is or isn’t but I think we have enough veterans to handle the leadership aspect if he is lacking  If my options today were (1)  Carson Wentz coming off of everything he is coming off of  (2) Matt Ryan at this stage in his career I would take Carson Wentz every time.   I’m not saying Carson would have been my choice of all the potentially available options, but if it was between him and Matt Ryan it’s not even a tough decision.