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The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

Koolblue13

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Forever A Redskin

Forever A Redskin

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We brought in Cole Kelly as a UDFA. We now have a very very good QB room. Starter, vet backup with big game wins, developmental rookie with first round talent, and a sleeper/traits guy to run scout team and stash on the PS. 

 

I feel very good about our QB situation going forward.

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FootballZombie

FootballZombie

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, goskins10 said:

Then we got a massive haul for dropping just 5 spots in the draft. a 3rd this year and a 3rd next is = to a 3rd and 4th this year. Exactly the same. 

 

-Wentz will likely cost a 3 and a 2 next year. The picks we received in return were not of the same value. I believe that at least one of those 3rd or 4th rounders were comp picks, let alone of the same round. Even if we look at the Wentz trade as a 3n3, those were picks in the actual rounds, not comp picks. that means we gave up a pick in what is universally seen as a better QB draft, for a worse ones this year. Worse picks, and front-loaded into a worse draft year, I don't see that as the same.

 

Its also not just the cost itself. No other team this season who acquired a QB payed the price in picks and cap we did for Wentz and still had a "?" mark at the long term QB spot. They either paid significantly less to get a "?", or they straight up acquired their answer.

 

9 hours ago, goskins10 said:

CAP can be rearranged so it did not stop any FA signings, literally none. By paying it all at once if it does not work out he can be cut immediately. 

 

There is no debate that we can sign 28M more in players, if you don't have a 28 M dollar player, whenever you decide to pay him. Its just a matter of when. Every players eats cap that is otherwise available in their absence.

 

Whatever can be acquired w/ Wentz, you can acquire that and more without whatever cap he eats.

 

9 hours ago, goskins10 said:

This is at the very least grossly exaggerated

 

Much of the stuff about Foles and Wentz were reported years before Carson left Philly. There was no reason for any front office to attack their franchise QB in Wentz when he was seen as the future of the team. We knew about his disdain for Hurts before his final season in Philly played out too. These are not attempts to ding a guy on the way out. He was the guy at that point.

 

We have sources that have been linked all over this thread saying he

-Had a physical altercation with a teammate

-Didn't talk to his head coach for 10 weeks during the season

-Killed plays at the line in a "pissing contest"

-Skipped meetings

-Made excuses in QB meetings

 

If you don't see those as major red flags that's on you, I certainly do. I don't feel that is an exaggeration at all.

 

9 hours ago, goskins10 said:

This point makes no sense. If he fails he has no value but he costs nothing.

 

One of our biggest issues in trading for a QB this year was that we didn't have a QB on the roster w/ any trade value. In most trades, it takes a QB to get a QB. In the event of a QB failure, some QBs still have value if they are on a cheap deal. Wentz is not, so if he fails we will be unable to use him in a trade unless we go with a Goff like scenario where we pay someone to take him. Cutting Wentz clears cap, but that puts us in the same boat as before where acquiring a QB via trade would be problematic.

 

Furthurmore, If i have to play with his cap number to help clear some of his 28 Mil in cap space this year as you proposed before, he no longer costs nothing to cut next year. You cant have both, you have to give up something. Either he is costing you big money this year, or he is not cuttable for free next.

 

9 hours ago, goskins10 said:

This is generally bull**** without data to support it.

 

I have already provided the data in this thread.

See my posts on pg 552. I linked rankings from NFL.com, ESPN, PFF, PFN, Sports Illustrated and more. All lists were from after this season and before we acquired him. Every single list had him as a below average starting QB. Rankings ranged from 18-29 w/ an average placement above 21. (w/o Watson ranked)

 

I feel that is sufficient to support my stance. I believe the vast majority of evaluators outside this board rate him as a below average starting QB, at least all the ones on the primary companies.

 

9 hours ago, goskins10 said:

Same as above, can't double dip but it's just as exaggerated here as it was above. 

 

I don't know anyone else on this planet that wouldn't acknowledge Wentz previous exodus were nothing short of a fireworks show.

When that happens not once but twice in two years, I think that is a reasonable thing to worry about.

 

No QB divorce is pretty, but they certainly don't have to be half as bad as what we have seen surrounding Wentz, and he is the common thread in both events.

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CommDownMan

CommDownMan

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Wentz will likely cost a 3 and a 2 next year. 

 

The pick is a 3rd that becomes a 2nd of he plays more than 70% of snaps.   So it's only 1 pick either way.  

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/03/09/carson-wentz-colts-commanders-trade-compensation-details

 

"The conditional 2023 third-round pick can become a second-round pick if Wentz plays 70 percent of the snaps this year for Washington."

 

Edit:  re-reading  i think you might be saying 3 this year and likely 2 next year, but idk.

Edited by CommDownMan
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FootballZombie

FootballZombie

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6 minutes ago, CommDownMan said:

So it's only 1 pick either way.  

 

We also paid an additional 3rd this year already, dropped positions on a pick swap of 2nd rounders and gained a 7th. 

 

Plus the entirety of his contract

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Est.1974

Est.1974

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Posted

Did people watch the draft and see the value of QB on offer?

 

NE used a 1st on a guy called Strange. OMG Wentz for a couple of day 2 picks spread over 2 years. Then we bag Howell as depth. 
 

Great QB situation in our circumstances. 

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goskins10

goskins10

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Posted
3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

-Wentz will likely cost a 3 and a 2 next year. The picks we received in return were not of the same value. I believe that at least one of those 3rd or 4th rounders were comp picks, let alone of the same round. Even if we look at the Wentz trade as a 3n3, those were picks in the actual rounds, not comp picks. that means we gave up a pick in what is universally seen as a better QB draft, for a worse ones this year. Worse picks, and front-loaded into a worse draft year, I don't see that as the same.

 

Its also not just the cost itself. No other team this season who acquired a QB payed the price in picks and cap we did for Wentz and still had a "?" mark at the long term QB spot. They either paid significantly less to get a "?", or they straight up acquired their answer.

 

It's a 3rd and 3rd until it's not. If he does not work out it will NOT be a 2nd. And it's a net years pick. We got a 3rd and 4th THIS year. Wentz was a 3rd this year and until ijt's not, a 3rd NEXT year which is the equivalent of a 4th THIS year. All facts. Meaning that in terms of draft picks it's pretty ca wash. As for comp vs in rd that is minor but if you want to make the argument that it is a little more OK I guess. But you and others are making it sounds like we gave up the farm to get Wentz. If that's true, then you must also agree we got a kings ransom to move 5 spots down in the first. The reality is it was not nothing but it was not a huge cost either.


 

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

There is no debate that we can sign 28M more in players, if you don't have a 28 M dollar player, whenever you decide to pay him. Its just a matter of when. Every players eats cap that is otherwise available in their absence.

 

Whatever can be acquired w/ Wentz, you can acquire that and more without whatever cap he eats.

 

 

In terms of CAP, the team can manufacture $28M any time they want it. Even tat $28M can be restructured to be much less. SO keep acting like it's a kings ransom if you want but it's an exaggeration. The bolded is your opinion. I would much rather have Wentz than any of the "lessor" deals like Mitch or even Mariota. At least he has shown he can play at a high level in the NFL, something neither of them have done. And are you sure Clev does no have "?". When did he play last? And is it the same team? WOW if he flames out talk about ****ed. With Wentz if he flames out we owe nothing. That is an important fact you keep ignoring.  

 

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

Much of the stuff about Foles and Wentz were reported years before Carson left Philly. There was no reason for any front office to attack their franchise QB in Wentz when he was seen as the future of the team. We knew about his disdain for Hurts before his final season in Philly played out too. These are not attempts to ding a guy on the way out. He was the guy at that point.

 

We have sources that have been linked all over this thread saying he

-Had a physical altercation with a teammate

-Didn't talk to his head coach for 10 weeks during the season

-Killed plays at the line in a "pissing contest"

-Skipped meetings

-Made excuses in QB meetings

 

If you don't see those as major red flags that's on you, I certainly do. I don't feel that is an exaggeration at all.

 

IF you choose to believe that noise over players saying much of it was exaggerated and Wentz was a good teammate, then that's on you. I do believe some if it is real. But I can also see him being the scape goat for an imploding team (Philly) and drug addict owner who is irrational and gave orders to the football people to move him despite thier reluctance to do so. Many of his team mates came out in support of Wentz. You can chose to ignore that but I prefer not to ignore the people in the room. 

 

 

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

One of our biggest issues in trading for a QB this year was that we didn't have a QB on the roster w/ any trade value. In most trades, it takes a QB to get a QB. In the event of a QB failure, some QBs still have value if they are on a cheap deal. Wentz is not, so if he fails we will be unable to use him in a trade unless we go with a Goff like scenario where we pay someone to take him. Cutting Wentz clears cap, but that puts us in the same boat as before where acquiring a QB via trade would be problematic.

 

Furthermore, If i have to play with his cap number to help clear some of his 28 Mil in cap space this year as you proposed before, he no longer costs nothing to cut next year. You cant have both, you have to give up something. Either he is costing you big money this year, or he is not cuttable for free next.

 

With all due respect the first paragraph makes no sense at all. I already said at worst we kick the can down to next year but the reason that's OK is that the QBs in that draft are much better and the salary comes off the CAP - all of it. Not a huge issue if it does not but no dead CAP is a good thing. 

 

As for the bolded, you are assuming the worst case when it's not even happened. How you can say he is uncuttable when there is no contract to see. And then if he is, how long? 1 yr, 2, 3 ? more? Zero value statement. 

 

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

I have already provided the data in this thread.

See my posts on pg 552. I linked rankings from NFL.com, ESPN, PFF, PFN, Sports Illustrated and more. All lists were from after this season and before we acquired him. Every single list had him as a below average starting QB. Rankings ranged from 18-29 w/ an average placement above 21. (w/o Watson ranked)

 

I feel that is sufficient to support my stance. I believe the vast majority of evaluators outside this board rate him as a below average starting QB, at least all the ones on the primary companies.\

 

I saw that. A bunch of so called experts gave thier opinion of best QB. Sorry, not interested. Even PFF (yes I quoted them too) is only OK for me. They have thier favorites It's not a science. Also, look at last year - the data suggests he is better than average. I provided enough data to dispute your contention. If you choose to ignore it, fair enough. Up to you. 

 

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

I don't know anyone else on this planet that wouldn't acknowledge Wentz previous exodus were nothing short of a fireworks show.

When that happens not once but twice in two years, I think that is a reasonable thing to worry about.

 

No QB divorce is pretty, but they certainly don't have to be half as bad as what we have seen surrounding Wentz, and he is the common thread in both events.

 

It's OK if you just want to blame him and ignore context that's fine. I choose to not to. In the end, I have no idea if he works out. BUT much of the complaints are exaggerated making the claim the team gave a big price for him and he almost certain to fail. He may fail. He may be a th big POS that Irsay and a few low lifes at Philly say he is. But the cost was not that big for a potential franchise QB. And if flames out all it means is you load up again next year and try again. I am OK with that, 100%. 

 

Last but not least, outside Wilson and Rogers who both were never coming here. He really was the next best option.

 

Honestly, all this is meaningless at this point. It's done and we will see next September and beyond if it works out. But I am totally OK with them taking a shot with Wentz. 

 

 

 

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Forever A Redskin

Forever A Redskin

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Posted (edited)

Keim made a great point on his latest pod. Rivera talks to Andy Reid a LOT.

 

When Andy first took over the chiefs one of the first things he did was go and get Alex Smith. Alex Smith was never the long term answer, but they built around him to an EXTREME and put loads of talent around him until they identified the RIGHT rookie. You could even argue that Wentz is a better QB than Alex Smith was.

 

I think Ron is mimicing the Andy Reid team building model.

 

But now the icing on the cake is we have a developmental guy in Howell on our own roster that could be the long term answer by the time we figure out what Wentz is.

 

Either way we built the crap out of the offense around Wentz. He will give us enough spark to really ignite this fanbase around the team. I don't think we're done either. Keim said we might still add another O-lineman.

 

Terry, Dotson, Healthy Curtis Samuel, and year 2 Dyami Brown  is a really exciting WR room. Add to that your Thunder and Lightning RBs in B-Rob and Gibson. Then your 3rd down swiss army knife McKissic.

 

Then we have a top 5 to 8 TE in Logan Thomas, an excellent sophomore in Bates, and just drafted a intriguing TE that looks like a poor mans Colston. He lined up wide and in the slot at Nevada a LOT. 

 

I can already see Red Zone packages of Cole Turner and Cam Sims. 

 

Best pass blocking O-Line and best arsenal of weapons that Wentz has ever had in his career. Let's see if the ginger steps up to the plate.

 

Scott Turner doesn't have any excuses now either. We're really gonna see what this team is made of on offense.

Edited by Forever A Redskin
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FootballZombie

FootballZombie

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

It's a 3rd and 3rd until it's not. If he does not work out it will NOT be a 2nd

 

I don't have to look farther than Wentz to draw different conclusions.

 

He didn't work out in Indy, and they ended up giving away the higher option of their contengent-pick (the 1st rounder). If Wentz does not work out here, that is no guarantee we wont still be giving up the higher compensation scale on our deal. To me that seems like the most likely outcome.

 

He would have to either get badly injured to the point he has to miss substantial games, which as other posters have pointed out is unlikely, or crater so hard coming out the gate that he would be doing his best meteor striking the earth impression and we would be forced to bench him. I'm not a believer in either of those scenarios. With an easier schedule and no true challenger, I see Wentz starting most if not all the games.

 

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

In terms of CAP, the team can manufacture $28M any time they want it.

 

This is not even debateable. Any cap that can be created w/ Wentz on the roster, can be exceeded with Wentz not being acquired since you can make that same move, and have Wentz theoretical 28 M in top of it.

 

The only move that can be made that does not effect a hypothetical Wentz-less roster are moves involving Wentz' contract itself, and unless Wentz is free, he can not create equal Cap space, let alone more then our team sans Wentz. Right now not only is he not free, he is costing us 28 large. That's a lot of samolians, which can be several impact players.

 

Yes I believe Clev has an answer. He is the unquestioned future of that franchise. There is no doubt that he is expected to lead their teams for years. He is their franchise QB, no audition needed. The potential horrific outcome if he fails don't factor into the idea that he is their long haul QB right now.

 

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

IF you choose to believe that noise

 

Every Player, Coach and FO Executive and Wentz himself has every reason to not burn bridges. They all want to continue to work in the future and that is much harder if you actively encourage these negative stories. The only person who is free to speak as they please is Irsay, as he does not have fire-able skin in the game and is not looking for NFL work. As many others on here agree however, dude is a psycho so I don't rely on his input for my arguments aside from the totally false but believable idea that Wentz told an epic Yo' Mama joke to Irsay's face, so the owner is now in his feelings about it.

 

As for Wentz behavior, if it was just one occurace, fine. If it was just two... okay.

 

But when a guy over a course of several years (since Philly's superbowl run in 2018) has reports about his behavior coming out over and over, and over and over again that creates warning signs and lights that can only be properly conveyed by Robbie

 

Danger Will Robinson GIFs | Tenor

 

Unless Philly knew years in advance they were moving on from him, I can't sweep all that under the rug based on timeline alone.

There were also multiple reports from Indy media before he played a down in that city that slammed his leadership and called him a bad teammate. Hard to chock that up to dinging a guy on the way out when you are bashing the guy you just acquired.

 

There is so much meat on this bone the animal is still alive. No matter how much weight you want to give the idea of agendas to make him look bad, it cant cover the vast amount of evidence that exists and the timeline it is spread across.

 

I don't see anybody backing the idea that he has no red flags, just semantics about the size of the red flags he has. End of they day, no matter what side your on, he has red flags, and that is a negative marker on this trade.

 

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

I saw that. A bunch of so called experts gave thier opinion of best QB. Sorry, not interested.

 

If you got a better way for me to prove this point I'm all ears.

 

I took my own opinion out. I didn't utilize the opinions of other posters to prevent rose colored glasses effect. I puled from 7 different sources to negate any one persons overly slanted narrative. Utilized the most respected outlets in the industry. Every list was posted after the season and before the trade to avoid trade value shift bias and Washington bias. General concensus was he is not a top 20 QB in the NFL. Not one source had him over 18 meaning every single place had him as a below average starting QB. I don't know a better way to demonstrate this point. ESPN, NFL.com, PFF, PFN, Si and more all had the same conclusion. If you don't want to listen to me, listen to them.

 

 

I don't see this as meaningless. Its important to understand this stuff now so we can better understand things when they happen moving forward.

Edited by FootballZombie
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Stone Cold

Stone Cold

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Freaking out over a couple of 3rd round picks is hilarious to me. Most 3rd rounders don't do ****. For every Terry McLaurin there are 100 Leonard Hankersons.

I was so excited about Hank. Just knew we had a dog in him.  Butttttt…..nope

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  • Koolblue13 changed the title to The Official QB Thread- Commander Carson and the development of Howell and Kelley
Koolblue13

Koolblue13

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  • Author
Posted
Strengths
  • Statistical production will grab attention.
  • Expedites operation time for quicker release.
  • Ball comes out effortlessly.
  • Over-the-top delivery makes him even taller in the pocket.
  • Delivers drive throws to deep middle with velocity.
  • Bulldozing option as a red-zone runner.
  • Had at least one rushing touchdown in 10 of 13 games in 2021.
Weaknesses
  • Pear-shaped build with uneven weight distribution.

Cole Kelley | Arkansas Razorbacks

 

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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:
 
  • Pear-shaped build with uneven weight distribution.

 

First time I've ever seen this. And it's, apparently, his only weakness. Guy is a Pear-Shaped Superman

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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

Maybe this should just be titled the "I Don't Like Heinicke And Refuse To Include His Name" thread.

 

I think that's implied by KB13's normal posting habits. No need to spell it out. :ols:

Edited by KDawg
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