The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[88Comrade2000]

We should do what Green Bay did under Farve. They drafted QBs and were able to trade them to other teams.

 

We actually had one of those qbs here; Brunnell.

[The Consigliere]

6 hours ago, Conn said:

the other side…

 

 

 

 

I do agree w/this 100% which is why I'd s can any coach w/1 year on his contract and in a win or get fired kind of season before they did crazy trades. We've seen innumerable examples over the years of GM's and GM/Coaches and coaches simply seizing the future of a franchise, and throwing it out the window for a desperate attempt at a post season run and stupid, gullible owners, buying their bs and accepting it rather than firing them and blocking the trade. 

[CobraCommander]

Just now, 88Comrade2000 said:

We should do what Green Bay did under Farve. They drafted QBs and were able to trade them to other teams.

 

We actually had one of those qbs here; Brunnell.

We need a franchise QB before we can do that. Patriots also had success doing that. 

[The Consigliere]

I should add that while I think this trade comes under that umbrella, I also don't think it's a franchise wrecking trade. I think we're probably the loser in it, but I also don't think it's crazy to move that kind of comp for Wentz. The Darnold price last year was the sort I thought was crazy (and I liked Darnold as a cheap target), I never, ever expected a guy w/1 year left on his rookie deal to go for a reasonably high 2nd, and a reasonably good day 3 pick after playing like hot garbage throughout his career. 

[Dark Acre]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Which reminds me Sheehan and Finlay were beating the drum nonstop for Watson.  

Beating the drum, huh?  Is that what they call it these days?

[88Comrade2000]

We have our 22 starting QB and if all works out, our franchise QB.

 

If you draft a qb; it’s basically to replace Heini as backup and you can do that in Rounds 5-7. You could still sign some lowest tier vet also.

 

To hedge bets that Carson doesn’t work out; you trade down from #11 and get a pick this year and 23 #1.

I am buying that Carson could also be traded in 23; if he’s not the guy. Though what team would want him?

 

I would still trade Payne and/or Sweat. We can’t afford to pay all 4 D-linemen. Get more #1’s to get that qb in 23; if needed.

Edited March 11, 2022 by 88Comrade2000

[cakmoney61]

2 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

Editorial comment: Love the new thread subtitle, "Winning with Wentz and the Hiding of Heinicke."

 

In my youth (in the 50's) a rough hiding with "the belt" was something your parents gave you "for your own good."

 

So if my parents were right I guess this is good for Heinicke's development.

 

 

Like most, I believe that Heinicke's best role on the team would be as a backup.  As far as starters go, virtually anyone other than Heinicke is addition by subtraction.  Wentz has the potential to be much more than simply not being Heinicke.  He is addition with the real potential to be multiplication.

[88Comrade2000]

50 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Just listening to the NFL Blitz with Bruce Murray and Mark Domenick (former Tampa GM)....both believe we overpayed for Wentz but also suggested free agents don't want to come to DC so Washington was over a barrel in many ways. They then went on to agree that Wentz will be listed as the #1 QB but wouldn't be surprised if Heinicke beat him out???? Both don't see Wentz as much of an upgrade over TH....

It's good to hear former teammates speaking up positively about Wentz. I'm looking forward to seeing what we do on top of this move to support him. 

Heini isn’t beating out Wentz. If that happened; you fire Ron and the Motley GM crew on the spot. You ride the season with Del Rio as coach.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by 88Comrade2000

[88Comrade2000]

32 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

We need a franchise QB before we can do that. Patriots also had success doing that. 

We hope Carsonator is that.

[CommanderInTheRye]

24 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Heini isn’t beating out Wentz. If that happened; you fire Ron and the Motley GM on the spot. You ride the season with Del Rip as coach.

 

 

 

"You ride the season with Del Rip as coach."

 

I know "Del rip" was a typo but it tickles me all the same-- I read it as Del R.I.P.

 

Rest in peace is exactly what our team outlook would be with Snyder reasserting organizational dominance by firing the hard working well respected Rivera mid-season and inserting  DelRio as (interim) head coach.

 

Anyone remember Snyder's brief flirtation with hiring 70 year old drinking buddy Pepper Rodgers as replacement coach for Norv Turner?

 

 

 

 

Edit:

 

In case you thought I was kidding here's what Chris Mortenson said at the time...

 

"This is all you need to know about Daniel Snyder: He considered hiring Pepper Rodgers as the interim coach of the Washington Redskins. Honest. Now, Snyder has hired Rodgers as vice president of football operations.

 

	Norv Turner leaves FedEx Field one last time as Redskins' coach Sunday. Owner Daniel Snyder fired Turner on Monday.

 

 

I have nothing against Rodgers. Good guy. He used to be a coach. He's made me laugh on many occasions. He just made me laugh again.

 

 

Oh, if you're a Redskins fan, you should laugh till you cry.

 

 

I guess the best thing that could happen to Snyder -- and this is a real possibility -- is that all those big-name coaches he has his sights set on will not even return his phone call. Two of those men have already told me just that..."

 

 

 

https://www.espn.com/chrismortensen/s/2000/1204/923219.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[Conn]

1 hour ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

So clean pockets are his fetish. To each his own.

 

Wentz is a Felix Unger type of quarterback, which is by no means a bad thing.

 

It's just that the great ones tend to be more like Oscar Madison in that they can earn their bones in the dirtiest of pockets -- Mahomes, Rogers, Josh Allen et al.

 

The "great" Jim Zorn called it the ART of throwing-- avoid...reset...throw when the pocket becomes unclean.

 

 

To be fair, on top of his clean pocket numbers he went 6 TD/2 INT. So still a 3-1 TD/INT ratio in a messy pocket, it’s not like he collapsed into a shambles of a QB when he was pressured. A lot of his bad decisions were hurried throws from a bad pocket like most QB’s but he wasn’t a disaster in that regard, just didn’t thrive off of it like the great broken play QB’s in the Mahomes/Allen/Wilson group do. Which makes sense because while his talent if harnessed is immense, no one thinks even the best pipe-dream outcome leads to him being considered in that grouping. But he does okay avoiding pressure and throwing off-platform to make plays downfield, he’s lost some of that spring in his step though after the ACL. 
 

I will say that I’ll leave the door open on continuing to recover that mobility though, almost all his tape with the Colts last season (even the best bits) are marred by two injured ankles so it’s hard to tell where his mobility is really at. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

Four short falls ago, right around the takeoff of TikTok, Carson Wentz looked like a big-armed, nimble-footed, red-bearded dissector of defenses. He looked, at a surprisingly lithe 6-foot-5 and 240 pounds, like the solution to one of the toughest problems in sports. Occasionally throughout the 2017 season — and especially on Dec. 10 when he threw four touchdowns to beat the upstart Los Angeles Rams in a shootout — Wentz looked like the best quarterback in football.

 

But he ended that day riding a golf cart out of Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum with a black brace on his left knee. Torn ACL. Never the same. Wentz rebounded in 2018 and ’19 — his stats hovered around the top 12, the Eagles gave him a four-year, $128 million extension — but he cratered in 2020

 

...Now, the Washington Commanders have bet on Wentz after he played relatively well for the Indianapolis Colts last year — at least until an epic, end-of-season collapse. The Colts traded him away without a clear plan to replace him, a signal of how far his stock has fallen since 2017. In Washington, Wentz is a clear upgrade over Taylor Heinicke, and at the cost of two third-round picks, he’ll be expected to have a major impact on the offense.

 

 

The question for Wentz and Washington — both coming off two years of below-average quarterback play, both with potential — is how high each can push the other. And the question for Wentz specifically may be, “What changed since 2017, and is it fixable?”

 

Football analysts say it’s more complicated than that. At the most basic level, Wentz is a good fit for offensive coordinator Scott Turner’s vertical scheme, said ESPN’s Matt Bowen said. Even though the quarterback turns 30 in December, even though he’s dealt with back, knee and foot injuries, Bowen said Wentz still has strength and talent to make the deep, difficult, tight-window throws the Commanders have lacked since Turner arrived with Coach Ron Rivera in 2020.

 

“Ultimately, I think when you have him in Washington, this is what you want: You want him to stretch the field,” Bowen said. “You want him to make the big-time throws, the game-changing throws down the field to the third level. You want him to be very productive in critical game situations, third down and in the red zone. That's what you want.”

 

...Kevin Cole, a data analyst for Pro Football Focus, argued Wentz shouldn’t be judged against his 2017 performance because he overperformed in key situations that year, such as third down. By the metric Expected Points Added, Wentz had the fourth-best third-down season of any NFL quarterback in the last decade, according to TruMedia. Cole said a more realistic target is his 2018-19 form, when Wentz was a “fringe top-10, fringe top-12” player.

 

Last season with the Colts, Cole said Wentz was “pretty close” to that level statistically but poor play in high-profile games — the New England win in Week 14, the Jacksonville loss in Week 18 — made him seem worse than he was. Wentz is a high variance quarterback, capable of making throws others can’t but carrying the risk of extreme downside that could manifest in a season, like 2020, or a game, like Jacksonville.

“You have to be able to live with that [variance],” Cole said

 

...On film, Bowen said, there are a few explanations for Wentz’s inconsistency. The most glaring is poor mechanics with his lower body and release point. This causes him to miss layup throws and keeps the offense from staying on schedule.

The other, Bowen said, is Wentz’s penchant to trust his physical gifts. Instead of checking down, Wentz tries to extend plays, which can lead to explosive gains or losses, such as sacks or interceptions. 

 

 

...If Turner can work with Wentz, Bowen said Washington has enough talent at the skill positions and on the offensive line to get the best out of Wentz. He’d be able to stretch the field with tight end Logan Thomas. He can take vertical, one-on-one shots down the sideline to receiver Dyami Brown. He can exploit the middle of the field with gadget receiver Curtis Samuel or find Antonio Gibson coming out of the backfield. And he can deliver a well-timed ball to star receiver Terry McLaurin on a number of routes.

 

“How we judge Carson Wentz this year will be … those throws,” Bowen said. “You're going to have to be consistent and accurate and throw with anticipation from the pocket. Because the scheme works. There's no question the scheme works. It's just going to come down to his ability to function and produce in that offense and make the plays in critical game situations.”

 

Despite the potential pitfalls, despite the unlikelihood of Wentz returning to 2017 levels of production, Cole argued Washington is better with him than it was with any other quarterback from the last two years. The variance roller coaster may be difficult to ride, and the public opinion of Washington’s trade will likely depend on whether Wentz can ever recapture his form from 2018-19, which Cole said might be more a realistic expectation.

“At least there is some upside, if everything is going right for him,” the analyst said. “If the team is willing to take that chance, it could pay off.”

[CapsSkins]

The more I think about it, the more I feel at minimum we're headed for a 10 win season with inconsistent QB play, and at best we've found a franchise guy.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

[Riggo#44]

I listened to Bob Kravitz from Indy this morning on Galdi's podcast--and he really just sounded like an organizational mouthpiece. He really didn't add any additional insight, it just parroting what Ballard and Irsay were saying in the media, reiterating Reich supposedly apologizing to Irsay and Ballard for sticking his neck out on Wentz. Really disappointing.

 

He did say something I am sure we are all guilty of: We will talk our selves into Wentz. And now the Colts are apparently interested in Cousins? You'll be doing the same thing...

 

We'll see how this works out--but I do not see this as a lateral move from Heinicke. Anyone who actually watched Heinicke would never say this.

[Dark Acre]

Welcome Wentz with weapons.  Why wait?  We want winning!

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Mrshadow008 said:

 

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

10 minutes ago, Dark Acre said:

Welcome Wentz with weapons.  Why wait?  We want winning!

 

An astonishingly astute and amusingly accurate alliterative archetype!

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[Riggo#44]

6 minutes ago, Dark Acre said:

Welcome Wentz with weapons.  Why wait?  We want winning!

I couldn't help but read this in this voice:

 

[FLSkinz83]

So let's summarize:

 

1) Colts teammates liked him

 

2) Colts pass protection sucked last year.

 

3) Irsay is crazy

 

4) 140 TD's and 57 INT's in his career

 

5) Never really had much receiving talent

[CommanderInTheRye]

9 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

So let's summarize:

 

1) Colts teammates liked him

 

2) Colts pass protection sucked last year.

 

3) Irsay is crazy

 

4) 140 TD's and 57 INT's in his career

 

5) Never really had much receiving talent

 

Don't forget he's packing 10 solid inches! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

Big hands are always a benefit to any ball handler.

 

 

 

 

 

[Zim489]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

 

 

I do agree w/this 100% which is why I'd s can any coach w/1 year on his contract and in a win or get fired kind of season before they did crazy trades. We've seen innumerable examples over the years of GM's and GM/Coaches and coaches simply seizing the future of a franchise, and throwing it out the window for a desperate attempt at a post season run and stupid, gullible owners, buying their bs and accepting it rather than firing them and blocking the trade. 

I agree with everything here and it feels like we have been here for 20 years running now 

[Darth Tater]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

 

 

I do agree w/this 100% which is why I'd s can any coach w/1 year on his contract and in a win or get fired kind of season before they did crazy trades. We've seen innumerable examples over the years of GM's and GM/Coaches and coaches simply seizing the future of a franchise, and throwing it out the window for a desperate attempt at a post season run and stupid, gullible owners, buying their bs and accepting it rather than firing them and blocking the trade. 

I also suspect there is a chance that Reich might be our OC next year since unless he gets lucky, he'll be fired after this season. First, IF Washington has a season like they must for Rivera to remain, it is likely that Scott will get tapped for one of the HC positions available in 2023. Second, IF Washington doesn't, Rivera will be forced to make changes if he wants to remain (OC is one of the common ones). A third long-shot is that we replace the whole staff IF we fail (but can we even find one unless Dan sells?)

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Just listening to the NFL Blitz with Bruce Murray and Mark Domenick (former Tampa GM)....both believe we overpayed for Wentz but also suggested free agents don't want to come to DC so Washington was over a barrel in many ways. They then went on to agree that Wentz will be listed as the #1 QB but wouldn't be surprised if Heinicke beat him out???? Both don't see Wentz as much of an upgrade over TH....

Not that I've ever listened to these guys, but proof or it didn't happen...  🤣

 

I totally expect the media to pile on this team giving up draft picks to acquire a QB, considering they've all blown up in our faces.  But to suggest that Taylor Heineke could beat out Wentz is a whole nother level of ridiculousness, that we would only find at a place like here or the facebook comments section.

[Voice_of_Reason]

16 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Cousins was picked because Shanahan loved him from coaching the senior bowl. He didn't even want to move up and take RGlll but Snyder made him do it. They did not draft Cousins because they needed a good backup....no one does that. Teams draft non-starting QB's to develop them and see what they amount to....backups are guys who are vets that know the league and won't complain or guys who are being developed behind a legit starter. Cousins was drafted because Shanahan liked him from the senior bowl and actually thought he was a better pro prospect then RGlll was....he was right.

As for TH, anything some of us say about him is met with illogical rips from you. You even go as far as naming us in other posts to mock us. We know what TH is and know he's not the franchise QB but we give him respect for what he did this past season. 

Your idea that the we need to draft a QB just to improve our backup QB situation over TH is just plain ridiculous....teams don't think that way. If we draft a QB it will be as a project or with the hope that he can be a future franchise QB. 

I seriously can't believe you think we'll draft a QB just to get a better backup than TH is......they could sign available FA's to be that if they didn't like TH. 

I'm just going to point out this is factually incorrect.

 

1. Shanahan liked Cousins.  He actually liked Wilson more, and would have taken him over Cousins if he had been there.  This statement is on the record.  

2. Mike Shanahan was completely in favor of the trade up. He endorsed it, and was all-in.  He's been on Sheehan's show about 10 times and said the same thing.  He also said that he warned Snyder and Bruce the biggest risk with Griffin is he had never failed, and had a certain degree of arrogance, so he questioned how Griffin would respond to adversity.   The other thing Mike has said about the trade is he would not have done it if they had known about the cap penalty.  But by the time the penalty was announced, it was too late, the trade had been made.  

3. Mike also has pointed out that he was intrigued by the game they played against Carolina in 2011 with Cam Newton, because it opened his eyes to a different style of offense.  Cam rushed 10 times for 59 yards, and threw for 256.  Both he and Kyle have said they enjoyed the challenge of creating a more versatile offense because when you present the QB as a run threat, it's the only way you are playing 11 on 11.  Both Mike and Kyle have said on the record they were in favor of the trade for Griffin.  It didn't end well, but let's not revisionist history this thing Q most likely select another QB, but not to worry about any competition.  They were drafting a backup.

5. There was never anywhere close to a competition for the starting QB job. When you use 3 first round picks and a second on a player, that player is playing right away.  Period.  

6. Cousins was drafted because they needed another QB on the roster, and they wanted to upgrade from Rex.  Cousins and Rex competed for the backup job.  They KNEW they were drafting a backup.  They did not going into the draft thinking they were spending 3 firsts and a second thinking Griffin was going to fail.  Mike even said that he thought Cousins could possibly develop and they could flip him for a second a few years down the road.  That's also on the record.  They were drafting a backup.  You can spin it any way you want, but they went into the draft knowing Rex was only going to be there one more year, they needed a long-term backup solution at a cheap price, and they grabbed another QB.  (For the record, I am not sure they SHOULD have done that, with all the problems it actually caused.  But that's an entirely different topic.  It is what they did.)

7. Teams draft QBs in the middle to back half of the draft all the time. Why?  To serve as a backup and possibly develop into a starter.  

 

As for what TH did last season, and having some respect for it, ok.  He was a backup forced to start and played 2-3 good games.  He was dreadful in a bunch of others.  Some of the games they won, he had something to do with.  Others he didn't.  Quite honestly, there are a whole lot of backup QBs who could have pulled off what TH pulled off. A season of below-average QB play with a few good games.  That's basically what you expect from every backup in the league.  There's really nothing wrong with that.  Unless you over inflate the accomplishment to more than what it is.  

 

I do agree, if we draft a QB in the second or third (which would necessitate a trade, and I don't think they will pick one at 11 anymore after the Wentz trade), the reason would be to see if the player developed into a starter. However, unless that player COMPLETELY busts, they will be on the team for the next 3 years, probably as the backup. If they pick a player in the 4th - 5th rounds, it's probably to be the backup, and if it's in the 6th - 7th rounds, it's probably a flier and camp arm.