The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

It's all you've been saying for months

 

Wait we traded for Wetz over a month ago. I know you like to stretch things out of context but come on man you are better than this. 

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Oh come on.  It’s exactly what you meant.  

 

Me asking for 11+ wins from Wentz is saying he is worse than TH? Really confused as to what you are trying to say here. 

[Jericho]

53 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

No, I think if he comes to Washington, a team that has had disproportionate penalties against it when doing questionable things, he will get suspended and we will lose the picks and players we give up for him and possibly still have to take his cap space.  A guy accused of serial sexual harassment(abuse? not sure), being sent to a team that's also being investigated for those things to be the hero for that team is a bad look for the NFL and they wouldn't like it.

 

If he comes to Washington he doesn't play football again for a long time, that's why he can't be here

 

So the old Mara conspiracy claims? Watson is fine going anywhere else, but going to Washington means massive penalties? That's the best answer?

[Voice_of_Reason]

40 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

I know some think we couldn't get a Heineken for TH, but I think a team would offer us a 4th or 5th round pick

Not being flippant, no team is trading for a physically limited backup who’s greatest strength is he knows Scott Turner’s playbook.  Because the Turner (originating from the Air Coryell system is not that prevalent in the league. 
 

If TH was cut tomorrow, there’s a good chance he’s not signed by another team.  There is a reason he was out of football, and that reason was basically confirmed by his play last year. 

[NoCalMike]

The idea that a healthy Wentz is only a small upgrade over Heinicke is kind of ridiculous.  Key word, healthy.  My biggest concern with Wentz is his ability to stay on the field.  Right off the bat, 50% of the field isn't going to be cutoff from the offense, that alone changes a lot in the offense's ability to take advantage of defenses stacking boxes or cheating on the shorter routes, playing softer coverages etc etc etc.....Has it already escaped everyone's memories of McLaurin having to slow down, stop, and fight for receptions where he was clearly wide open?  How about all the quick throws that were behind the intended targets?  It hasn't been that long people, come on.

 

I am not saying by any means Wentz in DC will be a success or even be satisfactory, but the "barely an upgrade over Heinicke" sentiment can go somewhere else.

Edited March 10, 2022 by NoCalMike

[BraveWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

This is an extremely important and self-aware post and I think a similar sentiment of resentment is what’s driving a lot of the unhappiness on this site and on twitter. People allowed themselves to dream big at QB like Denver fans did and the whiplash of now dealing with the reality is making the deal seem a lot worse than it actually is to lots of fed up, miserable fans. Understandably. The juxtaposition of what feels like “could have been” (even though it couldn’t have been) vs what actually is, is jarring to a lot of people. 
 

If we offered big but Wilson was just never traded and the only other big QB name dealt this offseason is Jimmy G, then some people would feel a lot differently. But the reality is that for US, Wilson may as well not have been traded at all because he wouldn’t come here. So there’s no difference to us. But irrationally, it would feel better if no other big QBs moved and we made this deal. 

Great point. Wilson being agreeable to go to Denver and not here is like a kick in the nuts to me, and many other fans, I'm sure. But it was an expected kick in the nuts. I was really hoping Rivera and company would stick to their word and make a big splash with a new QB, and I started daydreaming about having Rodgers or Wilson, or maybe even Watson if his legal issues would allow it.

 

With the team's idea of a QB splash with Wentz, it's like getting set up with a blind date, and you hear she's a model so you're really excited. But then you meet her and find out she's a hand model.  

[Jericho]

33 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Seems like the front office is putting themselves into a position where next offseason they can potentially go back to the drawing board looking for a franchise QB through the draft or FA.

 

Doubt it. Wentz will likely improve the team's record for 2022, meaning next year's first will be lower and there's likely no second rounder. How you going to trade up from pick 20 to the top 5? If anything, even mediocre QB plan means the team likely isn't dipping its toes in anything noteworthy for a while. You'd have to root for Wentz to just suck.

[Conn]

I don’t know how much of it is true or not true.

 

But I do know that I haven’t seen a concerted character assassination attempt like this upon the exit of a player since Desean Jackson was cut in Philly. And that was one of our few good personnel moves in that era. 
 

Bruce Allen and Snyder have had a reputation of character assassinations to shift blame upon exit, but that was usually coaches and FO people, not really players (for the most part). 
 

There’s just a lot of moving pieces here and while I would not argue against the fact that there has been adversity Wentz dealt poorly with (Foles becoming king of Philly after winning a SB while Wentz had a torn ACL, the Eagles drafting Hurts in the 2nd, his vaccine battle with Colts brass), I really don’t buy all the “he was hated in the locker room since day 1” stuff. That feels like FO or ownership related drama and not necessarily player vs player drama. It kind of feels like the dude is being railroaded. Again, not saying he’s the perfect personality or that it’s all 100%  lies. But this is clearly a concerted effort to make the fans feel better about why the Colts don’t have a 1st OR a QB right now. And it feels like something Snyder would do. 

[MrJL]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

My God this constant attempt at trying to convince a message board full of football fans (who generally know kindof what they’re looking at sometimes) a mediocre (at best) football player is actually not mediocre (at best)  must be exhausting.

 

I’m so tired for you I’m going to sleep.

 

If people are sick of justifying the actions that lead to us paying and giving stuff up for mediocre players then they need to stop demanding we take steps that can only result in us acquiring mediocre players.  Rodgers and Wilson were never coming here.  There are no superstars guaranteed to be available to play for us next year

[NoCalMike]

Forget about Wentz's future in DC for a second.  The guy is 29, on his third team as a starter and signed for a very team-friendly contract (besides the 2022 cap hit, uuuugh).  He is still young enough to have productive seasons, but also old enough to where this is likely his last chance to re-establish himself as a worthy starter.  Whether that means potentially being extended as a Commander or on another team, his production in the 2022 season is going to go a long way in telling the world what his future in the NFL is, and I am sure he is very well aware of this. 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, BraveWarrior said:

Great point. Wilson being agreeable to go to Denver and not here is like a kick in the nuts to me, and many other fans, I'm sure. But it was an expected kick in the nuts. I was really hoping Rivera and company would stick to their word and make a big splash with a new QB, and I started daydreaming about having Rodgers or Wilson, or maybe even Watson if his legal issues would allow it.

 

With the team's idea of a QB splash with Wentz, it's like getting set up with a blind date, and you hear she's a model so you're really excited. But then you meet her and find out she's a hand model.  

I'm in the middle of a hellacious dry spell. A handy from a hand model would be a personal superbowl vitory. 

2 minutes ago, Conn said:

I don’t know how much of it is true or not true.

 

But I do know that I haven’t seen a concerted character assassination attempt like this upon the exit of a player since Desean Jackson was cut in Philly. And that was one of our few good personnel moves in that era. 
 

Bruce Allen and Snyder have had a reputation of character assassinations to shift blame upon exit, but that was usually coaches and FO people, not really players (for the most part). 
 

There’s just a lot of moving pieces here and while I would not argue against the fact that there has been adversity Wentz dealt poorly with (Foles becoming king of Philly after winning a SB while Wentz had a torn ACL, the Eagles drafting Hurts in the 2nd, his vaccine battle with Colts brass), I really don’t buy all the “he was hated in the locker room since day 1” stuff. That feels like FO or ownership related drama and not necessarily player vs player drama. It kind of feels like the dude is being railroaded. Again, not saying he’s the perfect personality or that it’s all 100%  lies. But this is clearly a concerted effort to make the fans feel better about why the Colts don’t have a 1st OR a QB right now. And it feels like something Snyder would do. 

When you watch Colts games, his teammates all celebrate with him. Pick him up when hit, etc. There is clearly no issue with him and his team mates. His team leaders spoke up on his behalf today too.

[MrJL]

8 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

So the old Mara conspiracy claims? Watson is fine going anywhere else, but going to Washington means massive penalties? That's the best answer?

 

I feel what I feel.  Although honestly, I think it's 100% he'd never play here if we got him, I'm at like 75% that if he does play again it's after 2022 and 60% his career is done.  Blackballing Kaepernick for kneeling and letting Watson come back from this is a major black eye for the NFL

[method man]

8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'm in the middle of a hellacious dry spell. A handy from a hand model would be a personal superbowl vitory. 

When you watch Colts games, his teammates all celebrate with him. Pick him up when hit, etc. There is clearly no issue with him and his team mates. His team leaders spoke up on his behalf today too.

 

Wentz isn't a bad guy. His issue is that he will make friends with only a portion of the locker room and doesn't take the time to get to know everyone well like say Fitz. I remember Ertz was close with him in Philly as an example

[RWJ]

Not Commander related but where Jimmy G. will go.  

 

 

 

 

[BraveWarrior]

5 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

Blackballing Kaepernick for kneeling and letting Watson come back from this is a major black eye for the NFL

That's a fair point, but the NFL is so inconsistent with its messaging that nothing would surprise me. Watson is a superior talent to Kaep, and the league is pretty much starving for big time QBs. 

[IrepDC]

The thing most fans seem to overlook is that no QB wanted to come here. The QBs on the market had clauses to decide their trade destination and we were consistently not on their lists. No one wants us just like no one wants Wentz. We both have something to prove now. 

[KDawg]

Those numbers from the PFF article don’t signal slight upgrade. They signal massive upgrade. Wentz numbers are far better than Heinicke’s. And he has a cannon attached to his shoulder.

 

Now, just because he’s a massive upgrade to Heinicke doesn’t mean he’s a top end QB in the league. He’s not.  He’s just about where he’s rated. Can slot in that 13-21 range, more towards the back end.

 

Add Howell somehow and we are much, much improved at QB for 2022.

[Koolblue13]

I can't believe we have a QB that can hit a running receiver in stride 60 yards down the field accurately. 

 

Big Red is a huge improvement.

[Bifflog]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Those numbers from the PFF article don’t signal slight upgrade. They signal massive upgrade. Wentz numbers are far better than Heinicke’s. And he has a cannon attached to his shoulder.

 

Now, just because he’s a massive upgrade to Heinicke doesn’t mean he’s a top end QB in the league. He’s not.  He’s just about where he’s rated. Can slot in that 13-21 range, more towards the back end.

 

Add Howell somehow and we are much, much improved at QB for 2022.

 

Then how do you think they came to the WAR figure (not sure if there's more goodies past the paywall)?  Seems like they have Wentz as .86 Wins better than Heinicke, if I understand the stat (no promises that I do!  I'm not even sure if that literal interpretation is how it's supposed to be read).

 

Wentz also seems to be middle-ish on most of these charts, whereas our sad W mostly hangs out in the definitely-bad quadrant...

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-quarterback-rankings

Edited March 10, 2022 by Bifflog

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Bifflog said:

 

Then how do you think they came to the WAR figure?  Seems like they have Wentz as .86 Wins better than Heinicke, if I understand the stat (no promises that I do!).

 

Wentz also seems to be middle-ish on most of these charts, whereas our sad W mostly hangs out in the definitely-bad quadrant...

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-quarterback-rankings

.86 is a big number. It’s likely a game over Heinicke… who wasn’t even at a single game.

 

Heinicke was fun to watch. Good story. Good guy. Did some insane things with his legs and made some ridiculous efforts. But he struggles throwing the ball with zip and he puts his receivers in bad positions. On a positive, he also gave them a chance… unlike many other QBs we’ve had. So while Heinicke is under skilled and giant hearted, he didn’t really give us a whole lot. Wentz 1.5 number means that he gave the team 1.5 wins above a replacement for him would, if I understand the stat. That’s at minimum a game and over 50% a second. 
 

Taylor didn’t get to 1. 
 

im not trying to make Wentz out to be a savior or a top QB. But he is a clear peg above Heinicke. And he has some of that same escapability. His style is that of a bigger, strong armed Heinicke… but a little less in the running and putting his body on the line category. 

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

.86 is a big number. It’s likely a game over Heinicke… who wasn’t even at a single game.

 

Heinicke was fun to watch. Good story. Good guy. Did some insane things with his legs and made some ridiculous efforts. But he struggles throwing the ball with zip and he puts his receivers in bad positions. On a positive, he also gave them a chance… unlike many other QBs we’ve had. So while Heinicke is under skilled and giant hearted, he didn’t really give us a whole lot. Wentz 1.5 number means that he gave the team 1.5 wins above a replacement for him would, if I understand the stat. That’s at minimum a game and over 50% a second. 
 

Taylor didn’t get to 1. 
 

im not trying to make Wentz out to be a savior or a top QB. But he is a clear peg above Heinicke. And he has some of that same escapability. His style is that of a bigger, strong armed Heinicke… but a little less in the running and putting his body on the line category. 

Heinicke was scared to run last year. The coaches were publicly calling him out on it. Wentz has something like 1,200 yards rushing in his career. He's got some wheels for a 6'5" 240lbs dude.

[Bifflog]

Some stuff I'm looking at...

 

QB School Wentz Breakdown

 

 

An interesting post I found on Commanders Reddit:

 

"In looking into how effective Wentz was in Indy I was surprised to learn that according to PFF, the Colts were an abysmal 30th in pass blocking efficiency.

That's bad. They also had the 20th ranked line in pass block win-rate Also, not very good. This was all very surprising because the Colts had a great RB and running game which they apparently relied on because they didn't trust Wentz. And while Wentz might've been part of the problem, their ****ty pass blocking didn't help.

For context, WFT was top 10 in both areas."

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Bifflog

[VirginiaVibes]

 

[RWJ]

6 minutes ago, VirginiaVibes said:

 

They better extend him.  That's who I wanted us to try and trade for but that's an afterthought now. 

[zCommander]

38 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Heinicke was scared to run last year. The coaches were publicly calling him out on it. Wentz has something like 1,200 yards rushing in his career. He's got some wheels for a 6'5" 240lbs dude.

 

TH ran for 100 more yards than Wentz did last year. Yup really scared to run...lol

51 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I can't believe we have a QB that can hit a running receiver in stride 60 yards down the field accurately. 

 

Big Red is a huge improvement.

 

Let's not get carried away here. Couple of long completions doesn't mean huge improvement. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Saw this in an article on The Athletic:

 

Quote

in exchange for a pair of third-round picks, a league source said, one of which can become a second-rounder if Wentz plays a certain number of snaps next season

Only two outcomes here:

 

First, he ****s the bed here and is benched so we don’t have to give up a second round pick. 
 

Or he plays amazing so we don’t cut him and the we’re stuck with him for the rest of that contract and can’t cut him without the cap hit.