The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

Julie Donaldson continued her conversation with new Commanders Offensive Coordinator Eric Bieniemy.

 

Donaldson inquired how comfortable Bieniemy was with this quarterback room. “I think we are in a good place; Sam (Howell) is growing; I love his confidence. I love his instincts, the way he auto-corrects. I love his demeanor.”

 

Bieniemy further explained there will be some who feel Howell is not vocal enough not strong enough. But the former NFL running back actually likes how Howell remains calm through both the good and the bad.

 

Jacoby Brissett is pleasing Bieniemy as well. He likes how Brissett provides Howell with both leadership and professionalism. He is finding Brissett to bring experience to the quarterback room.

 

He likes how both Howell and Brissett have been eager to ask questions in learning the new offense Bieniemy is bringing, replacing the offense led by Scott Turner (2020-22).

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2023/06/22/washington-commanders-offensive-coordinator-eric-bieniemy-expecting-a-fun-exciting-2023-season/

 

[mojo]

On 6/21/2023 at 10:58 PM, Koolblue13 said:

That's a waste of talent.

Depends on Howell. If he’s dealing, no way I put him in harms way as part of the offense. If he’s not, sure…do what you got to do.

[Renegade7]

On 6/19/2023 at 6:51 PM, stoshuaj said:

Howell may want to watch tape of the O line so he can plan his escape routes.

 

(I know I know, shame on me.  Pfft, why care about O-line when you gots the legs?)

 

You kid, but it's in his best interest to study his strengths with respect to escapability, practice with the coaches, to help integrate good habits into his instincts...such as how to throw on the run. 

 

Seriously, some players have practiced over the years, sometimes even with their recievers, so what looks like 100% improv actually isn't.

[DWinzit]

9 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

You kid, but it's in his best interest to study his strengths with respect to escapability, practice with the coaches, to help integrate good habits into his instincts...such as how to throw on the run. 

 

Seriously, some players have practiced over the years, sometimes even with their recievers, so what looks like 100% improv actually isn't.

While this does make some sense, he would be at a disadvantage in that 4 out of 5 positions will have different starters so no film from last year to study. Hard to tell how they will work together, especially with a new OC calling plays.

[RandyHolt]

Escapability can be taught IMO but remain convinced OCs spend a vast majority of the practice time on every play being run to perfection when the reality is the defense gets paid too and on many (most?) plays there will be a mental or physical breakdown.  Practice should include blown assignments and again think when the QB has no chance of getting hit, its just not the same. So are they REALLY effectively practicing escaping, broken plays, going off script?

 

I think OCs panic and want to live for another day. We often see grounding calls. QBs throwing ducks across their body & it often becomes amateur hour and the QB looks like a high school QB. All the crazy throws a QB may need should be practiced. Call it the Mahomes drill.

 

For us outside the room it often seems the plan is never more than: Cousins it out of bounds to keep the INT count down for the big payday, and WRs come back towards the ball. I remember hearing some team always had 1 guy break deep which seems like a grand idea to this deep ball fan.

 

Practicing chaos makes it less chaotic. Some games the QB is just under duress start to finish and it happens to some level in all non 92 91 Skins games. Teams seem woefully ill prepared to handle it.

Edited June 25, 2023 by RandyHolt

[wit33]

57 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Escapability can be taught IMO but remain convinced OCs spend a vast majority of the practice time on every play being run to perfection when the reality is the defense gets paid too and on many (most?) plays there will be a mental or physical breakdown.  Practice should include blown assignments and again think when the QB has no chance of getting hit, its just not the same. So are they REALLY effectively practicing escaping, broken plays, going off script?

 

It’s a fascinating discussion and one I’ve brought up since the Kirk days, ability to play backyard football is a must in todays game. The OC has become more accepting of this fact, but remains a huge conundrum due to the fact the OC must be open to theory their play calls will not work and require the QB to make a play off schedule. 

 

57 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

I think OCs panic and want to live for another day. We often see grounding calls. QBs throwing ducks across their body & it often becomes amateur hour and the QB looks like a high school QB. All the crazy throws a QB may need should be practiced. Call it the Mahomes drill.

 

For us outside the room it often seems the plan is never more than: Cousins it out of bounds to keep the INT count down for the big payday, and WRs come back towards the ball. I remember hearing some team always had 1 guy break deep which seems like a grand idea to this deep ball fan.

 

Aaron Rodgers is the god father to this form of expression on then field by the QB. Not saying there haven’t been guys before him to create off schedule, but he found a nice blend and appeared to raise a middle finger to old school coaches by taking more control of game through use of blending on and off schedule plays consistently in games. 
 

Rodgers equals Steph Curry. The system had to conform to his talents and expression. 

 

57 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Practicing chaos makes it less chaotic. Some games the QB is just under duress start to finish and it happens to some level in all non 92 91 Skins games. Teams seems woefully ill prepared to handle it.

Imagine tilting the extremes in your favor. It’s a constant battle of coach and player relinquishing control during the extremes. 

[Renegade7]

7 hours ago, DWinzit said:

While this does make some sense, he would be at a disadvantage in that 4 out of 5 positions will have different starters so no film from last year to study. Hard to tell how they will work together, especially with a new OC calling plays.

 

It's 2023...I'm pretty sure at this point an oline would prefer a QB that can extend plays versus sit back in the pocket of a near brand new oline like a statue.

 

I agree with practice making it more organized chaos, this day in age it jus feels necessary and appropriate to do regular scramble drills.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Renegade7

[MartinC]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:27 AM, RandyHolt said:

Escapability can be taught IMO but remain convinced OCs spend a vast majority of the practice time on every play being run to perfection when the reality is the defense gets paid too and on many (most?) plays there will be a mental or physical breakdown.  Practice should include blown assignments and again think when the QB has no chance of getting hit, its just not the same. So are they REALLY effectively practicing escaping, broken plays, going off script?

 

I think OCs panic and want to live for another day. We often see grounding calls. QBs throwing ducks across their body & it often becomes amateur hour and the QB looks like a high school QB. All the crazy throws a QB may need should be practiced. Call it the Mahomes drill.

 

For us outside the room it often seems the plan is never more than: Cousins it out of bounds to keep the INT count down for the big payday, and WRs come back towards the ball. I remember hearing some team always had 1 guy break deep which seems like a grand idea to this deep ball fan.

 

Practicing chaos makes it less chaotic. Some games the QB is just under duress start to finish and it happens to some level in all non 92 91 Skins games. Teams seem woefully ill prepared to handle it.

Most offenses dedicate at least some time to practicing the ‘scramble drill’. The amount of time dedicated to it probably varies, and there may be some OCs who don’t run it at all, but most do spend time on this. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

On 6/24/2023 at 8:25 AM, Renegade7 said:

 

It's 2023...I'm pretty sure at this point an oline would prefer a QB that can extend plays versus sit back in the pocket of a near brand new oline like a statue.

 

 

As long as the QB is smart about when he extends plays, then yeah. Otherwise, I'd think most OLinemen would want a QB where they know where he is from one second to the next. Don't want a rerun of RG3 extending plays when he didn't need to, and the RT pushing his guy right into the QB because he didn't realize the QB left the pocket already.

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

As long as the QB is smart about when he extends plays, then yeah. Otherwise, I'd think most OLinemen would want a QB where they know where he is from one second to the next. Don't want a rerun of RG3 extending plays when he didn't need to, and the RT pushing his guy right into the QB because he didn't realize the QB left the pocket already.

 

This is fair and another reason I badly want to see practice on this issue.

 

We're getting to a point it's going to be abnormal to see starting QBs that can't run...they pretty much all think they can get away with **** they actually can't when they first start out, so might as well practice practice practice the right way versus waiting for them to learn everything the hard way, imo.

 

Get ahead of it, Howell is going to run whether we run scramble drills or not.

[Conn]

The problem when you’re learning an entirely new system is, you aren’t just catering to the young QB. You have limited reps in an offseason to get dozens of guys where they need to be with the new system. So every snap you spend simulating the OL screwing up in some way that allows the DL to break through, for example—that’s a snap that the entire offense doesn’t get back, “purposely” practicing things the wrong way so that the QB and WR’s can get those realistic broken play looks.

 

I’m not saying there’s no merit to practicing that—it’s just a matter of how you allocate reps, when you’re learning a new system with a roster who needs to focus on red zone, 3rd down, hurry-up passing downs, etc. Situational football is king, and making money on broken plays is part of that. There’s just a heavy opportunity cost to practicing it in team periods. It feels like something you’d do more in future years in the same offensive system. 
 

I think where you can do a lot of work with QB’s on off-platform throws, off-schedule throws mid-drop, etc. is in individual drills. It’s what Mahomes does all the time, especially alone. He’s always trying the impossible **** individually until it organically comes up in a game.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Conn

[Conn]

Very glad we didn’t go down this road:

 

 

 

[FootballZombie]

Pffft

 

We are a playoff team w/ Carr and there is potential for more.

NFC is a QB wasteland, he is one of the best in the conference. That is priceless.

Edited June 27, 2023 by FootballZombie

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

This is fair and another reason I badly want to see practice on this issue.

 

We're getting to a point it's going to be abnormal to see starting QBs that can't run...they pretty much all think they can get away with **** they actually can't when they first start out, so might as well practice practice practice the right way versus waiting for them to learn everything the hard way, imo.

 

Get ahead of it, Howell is going to run whether we run scramble drills or not.

 

Completely agree, especially the bold part. Actually, we may already be there...maybe not needing a Lamar Jackson or anything but the Drew Bledsoe model of QB is no longer valid.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Koolblue13]

7 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Completely agree, especially the bold part. Actually, we may already be there...maybe not needing a Lamar Jackson or anything but the Drew Bledsoe model of QB is no longer valid.

Most of the last ten QBs to win the SB were not mobile QBs. Brady, Stafford, Foles, Manning, Flacco, Eli.

 

A top level pocket passing is still a valid QB. You look at the top ten list of QBs and it's probably 50/50. Lawrence and Burrow aren't running away from anyone and unless a guy is built like Hurts, Allen or Daniel Jones, they'll end up like Tua and Lamar and missing a ton of time.

 

I think Howell is capable of 700yards on the ground, although I think he'll be closer to 400 yards.

 

I'm not down playing a QBs ability to scramble and move or take advantage of the RPO and Pistol. There is a ton of value in that, but those guys who can be true duel threats and stay in the game are rare.

 

That might change, but it hasn't yet.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

39 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Most of the last ten QBs to win the SB were not mobile QBs. Brady, Stafford, Foles, Manning, Flacco, Eli.

 

A top level pocket passing is still a valid QB. You look at the top ten list of QBs and it's probably 50/50. Lawrence and Burrow aren't running away from anyone and unless a guy is built like Hurts, Allen or Daniel Jones, they'll end up like Tua and Lamar and missing a ton of time.

 

I think Howell is capable of 700yards on the ground, although I think he'll be closer to 400 yards.

 

I'm not down playing a QBs ability to scramble and move or take advantage of the RPO and Pistol. There is a ton of value in that, but those guys who can be true duel threats and stay in the game are rare.

 

That might change, but it hasn't yet.

 

 

If you're talking about "dual threat" QBs, I agree. But I was talking about QBs with good mobility (unlike the Bledsoe model in which a dead walrus moves faster than he did lol). Plus, if you're drafting a QB now you're gonna hope he's with the team for at least 7 years, so you have to think what kind of QB play will be most effective over that timespan and into 2030, not just in 2023. Again, doesn't have to have some weird level of escapability or speed, but he's got to be able to move at least enough to realistically insert a few running plays or RO into the game plan. That's what I meant by no longer valid, not that you can't win with any other type of QB.

 

Plus, I don't look at what was going on 10 years ago to see trends happening now...10 years ago RG3 and Russell Wilson had just finished their rookie seasons and Shanahan and Carroll had just introduced a new type of offense to the NFL utilizing mobile QBs in an incredibly effective way. I'd look at the last 5 years instead...and I'd also look at the QBR standings moreso than just who won the SB--although if you wanted to use the SB as the barometer I'd use the number of QBs who made it to the Super Bowl over the last 5 seasons, not just who won it. But the SB is the ultimate team stat.

 

As for the QBR standings, if you go back 5 years, the list of QBs in the top 10 has been mostly mobile QBs by the definition I gave above.

[Koolblue13]

4 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

If you're talking about "dual threat" QBs, I agree. But I was talking about QBs with good mobility (unlike the Bledsoe model in which a dead walrus moves faster than he did lol). Plus, if you're drafting a QB now you're gonna hope he's with the team for at least 7 years, so you have to think what kind of QB play will be most effective over that timespan and into 2030, not just in 2023. Again, doesn't have to have some weird level of escapability or speed, but he's got to be able to move at least enough to realistically insert a few running plays or RO into the game plan. That's what I meant by no longer valid, not that you can't win with any other type of QB.

 

Plus, I don't look at what was going on 10 years ago to see trends happening now...10 years ago RG3 and Russell Wilson had just finished their rookie seasons and Shanahan and Carroll had just introduced a new type of offense to the NFL utilizing mobile QBs in an incredibly effective way. I'd look at the last 5 years instead...and I'd also look at the QBR standings moreso than just who won the SB--although if you wanted to use the SB as the barometer I'd use the number of QBs who made it to the Super Bowl over the last 5 seasons, not just who won it. But the SB is the ultimate team stat.

 

As for the QBR standings, if you go back 5 years, the list of QBs in the top 10 has been mostly mobile QBs by the definition I gave above.

Goff, Burrow, Brady again, Ryan? 

 

I'd say the Bledsoe model is moving towards becoming the exception, rather than the rule. It's hard to be a one trick pony at any position in the NFL, but it's hardly extinct.

 

Yes, mobility is important. 

[zCommander]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yes, mobility is important. 

 

I would say mobility is more than important. It is like having a Swiss army knife and the various gadgets on it that are at your disposal for varying situations. Also the defense coordinators have to account for a mobile QB which is always an advantage you can have or want. 

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I would say mobility is more than important. It is like having a Swiss army knife and the various gadgets on it that are at your disposal for varying situations. Also the defense coordinators have to account for a mobile QB which is always an advantage you can have or want. 

Be awesome if the QB could fly, too, but as long as he can command an offense and make the passes, it's good enough to be an NFL QB.

[profusion]

Mobility is important for a QB these days. They don't get all day in the pocket, and having the ability to roll out on designed plays and make some yards on broken plays is huge.

 

I don't know that actual designed running plays for QBs are, though, other than the occasional trick play. Too risky for your expensive QB's health.

[wit33]

You’re at a competitive disadvantage against the better teams in the NFL if your QB is unable to play backyard football. 
 

The pocket QB slicing up a defense requires sooo much to be humming around them to compete against the playmaking QBs. 
 

With that said, exceptions will forever exist. Just don’t pay the pocket QB let’s he same amount as the playmaking QB and all is good. 

[zCommander]

35 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Be awesome if the QB could fly, too, but as long as he can command an offense and make the passes, it's good enough to be an NFL QB.

 

Funny you should say that. With our offense line Howell might actually need to learn how to fly 

 

Good and great are two different things. We want great and if you have a QB with legs that can be used as a weapon also then that should be fully utilized by the QB. Didn't we bash TH last year for not running when he could or should have, an asset that he had but didn't want to use it? If you have a QB like Howell then you need to use all the tools he has. A mobile QB is a threat to be had. 

[tmandoug1]

A mobile QB is great if he is mobile when he wants to be, not when he has to be. If he is constantly forced out of his routine and has to run because of the lack of protection on the offensive front, that is an issue. If coverage on the recievers is great and his line gives him enough time do his reads and bail that is optimum. Time will tell.

[Going Commando]

Decision-making & accuracy >>> mobility for QBs still, and always will.  QBs with elite running ability have been part of the game for decades, and have never usurped the great pocket passers.  Running offense at a sustained level of excellence is never going to be a one man show, and that means the QB needs to stay on schedule and get the ball to the playmakers with consistency, and that is usually going to happen from the pocket.  That efficiency is the reason the passing game is designed around the pocket.  Even teams that use unconventional play design without a regular behind center pocket with frequency do so as a change of pace, and still throw the ball from the pocket a significant majority of their pass plays.  Yeah, it takes a reliable OL and reliable play from the weapons.  That is the team-centric nature of football, and you can never get around that with just one great athlete.

[philibusters]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:47 PM, FootballZombie said:

Pffft

 

We are a playoff team w/ Carr and there is potential for more.

NFC is a QB wasteland, he is one of the best in the conference. That is priceless.

 

Derek Carr had a rough season last year.  He became pretty comfortable and efficient in Jon Gruden's system and played like the better end of the mid range QB's his last 3 or so seasons under Gruden (QB's in the 10-14 range).  But last year in a new system he wasn't as good.  I  think if you just look at the 2022 season, Derek Carr was not a top 20 QB and that was why he was benched and pushed out.  Like a Kirk Cousins he can be a tad robotic in his reads, but when he really knows the offensive system like he did under Gruden that works well because he understands when to push the ball downfield.   When he doesn't understand the system as well it makes conservative and vanilla, a bit like Jacoby Brissett, in that it feels like a lot of checkdown passes.  He'll have another new system to learn in New Orleans.  It could work out for them, but if he plays like he did last year, the Saints realistic upside is to win the division at like 9-8 and get eliminated in the first round.  If he plays like he did under Gruden the last couple years, there is a bit more upside and a chance to do something in the playoffs.   I do think even bad Carr from last year gets us in the playoffs, but if he played like he did last year, we don't really have the upside to do much in the playoffs.

 

I think one of the lessons from last season is that it won't always be a seamless transition for a veteran QB to learn a new system.  We definitely saw that in Russell Wilson, but we also saw it with Carr.