The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Conn]

1 hour ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I think I’m out on Sam at this point. I won’t freak out if they start him next year but I’ll definitely have lowered expectations. I always thought his absolute ceiling was Kirk but I’m not sure he gets there. Too much working against them and not all of it is his fault. That’s part of the life of late round players. He has arm talent and some off schedule ability but he doesn’t look like a franchise QB to me. Just my opinion. The offense stinks. If he was truly The Guy, it wouldn’t stink. They struggle to score TDs. They struggle to sustain drives. His deep ball accuracy is spotty. Being a “gamer” and “tough” is cool but if those are the best words you can use for a QB, you’re usually describing a backup. Really remind me of Gardner Minshew and before you all freak out, I think Minshew is a fine Qb. Just not a guy anybody wants to have long term. Again, just my opinion. If he’s the QB again next year, I hope he proves me wrong. 
 

He really had a chance to guarantee his future by playing well. No one expects wins but a functional offense would suffice. Now, I think his best hope is that 4-13 is too good a record to secure a top QB without a potentially costly trade up. I’m not sure I’m comfortable trading up for a QB based off the history of doing that. However, performances like today are his floor and it’s a really ugly floor. 

I’m of two minds on this.

 

I think the scheme, playcalling, and personnel are really making Howell’s life not just harder, but nearly impossible. And anything positive we’ve see from him has been almost 100% him and not schemed for him by EB or anything. Which to me feels like he has untapped potential with a real staff.
 

But I also think your take here is understandable and fairly reasonable. I don’t think it’s ridiculous or an overreaction. You may very well be right. 

[illone]

No wonder Andy Reid never let Bieniemy call plays... At first I was hoping he would be retained for continuity, but now I am not sure I feel the same way. I think I like Sam more than I like EB. Some of that guys play calls and game plans are just weird.

 

I wouldnt be opposed to drafting another QB and opening up competition in camp, but I'd prefer another year with Sam and then see where we are next off-season.

 

I'm resolved to the fact that this thing is going to take awhile to get right given the current roster. My guess is we'll have something to cheer for in 2026+. Two solid FA + draft classes to get this thing fixed, so not sure Howell has enough runway to earn a contract extension if he even does play next year.

 

Either way playing Howell this year was the right thing to do. See what you have, kinda. The problem with that is the org might change the entire scheme, so we still may not know until we see him for a few games in the new scheme.

[Redskins 2021]

4 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I think I’m out on Sam at this point. I won’t freak out if they start him next year but I’ll definitely have lowered expectations. I always thought his absolute ceiling was Kirk but I’m not sure he gets there. Too much working against them and not all of it is his fault. That’s part of the life of late round players. He has arm talent and some off schedule ability but he doesn’t look like a franchise QB to me. Just my opinion. The offense stinks. If he was truly The Guy, it wouldn’t stink. They struggle to score TDs. They struggle to sustain drives. His deep ball accuracy is spotty. Being a “gamer” and “tough” is cool but if those are the best words you can use for a QB, you’re usually describing a backup. Really remind me of Gardner Minshew and before you all freak out, I think Minshew is a fine Qb. Just not a guy anybody wants to have long term. Again, just my opinion. If he’s the QB again next year, I hope he proves me wrong. 
 

He really had a chance to guarantee his future by playing well. No one expects wins but a functional offense would suffice. Now, I think his best hope is that 4-13 is too good a record to secure a top QB without a potentially costly trade up. I’m not sure I’m comfortable trading up for a QB based off the history of doing that. However, performances like today are his floor and it’s a really ugly floor. 

 He may or may not be the franchise Qb, but with all the holes on this team he had probably earned another shot for next year. 

 I think you give him another season starting he has played well enough for that. The defense has really been the problem this year. They have to solve the Oline and defense first. They are the bigger problems.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Redskins 2021

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Yeah, you have to go with Sam for another year. He has played well at times and looked better in his first year starting than some others who went on to become great QBs. There are a lot of guys on this roster who have never played well that need to be replaced first.

 

Next year is a rebuilding year… If Sam shows that he is your guy, great! If he’s not, then you’re picking high.

[zCommander]

 

Getting a QB in the later rounds is fine. You build around Howell. Everyone laughed at Mr. Irrelevant Purdy and today they are saying MVP and that is because he is behind a SB calibur OL and players that can get a lot of YAC for their QB. Also it so nice to be on a team that has very good defense.

 

If Purdy had played behind our OL he would have been broken only after 3 games. It baffles me that some just want to get rid of Sam that quick because he doesn't score. News flash - Purdy has time to throw to players that do the scoring. The holes that San Fran OL creates are simply just jaw dropping. But let's blame Sam here for not creating holes too.

 

But here, it is all Sam's fault. Sam is incapable of carrying this team on his back. Sam shouldn't have a good OL or players around him to be successful. He should still be able to score more TDs than players who have a legit OL. OL is just a luxury anyway.

 

Williams or Maye are so good that they will come in here and take this team to the SB their first year here without any help from OL or any WRs or RBs on the team. They are so good they can do it all by themselves since Sam is incapable of doing that. 

 

Sam should be traded to San Fran so he can backup Purdy and learn from him how to be a great QB. 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by zCommander

[NoCalMike]

People want Sam to play like a third year veteran in his first year as a starter behind a terrible O-line, inconsistent running game, dropping back 40 times a game, plus a defense that can't keep the other team from scoring over 30 most games. I just don't get it.

 

I will concede that Sam turning into a franchise QB is something even Sam supporters should give another season or two before making a final judgement on, however given the circumstances, he absolutely should be starting for this team next season unless the new GM and HC are adamant that it shouldn't be Sam.  I have never bought into the "we want our own guy" simply for the sake of wanting your own guy.  Most of the time you want your own guy because you aren't sold on the current guy, so if that is the case this offseason, so be it and I will deal with those chips when they fall.

 

If you look at the game today Sam's biggest two throws, the one to Terry (that should have been caught or at the least a DPI call) he had a defender in his face and threw it damn near in the process of being blasted, and the other throw was the one time he actually had a decent pocket, which was a dime to Curtis Samuel.  Almost every other throw was Sam having to avoid the pass rush and escape outside the pocket, making a throw on the run.  Those types of throws are supposed to be LUXURIES not NECESSITIES, however with this O-line Sam is constantly having to survive before he can even attempt a pass.

[clskinsfan]

12 minutes ago, zCommander said:

that is because he is behind a SB calibur OL

That is kind of a jab at Purdy. He is about the fastest processor and decision maker in the league. He reminds me of Montana in that regard. It is almost uncanny.

[NoCalMike]

Just now, clskinsfan said:

That is kind of a jab at Purdy. He is about the fastest processor and decision maker in the league. He reminds me of Montana in that regard. It is almost uncanny.

 

Well it also the Shanahan offense and a product of his 1st reads being wide open.  Have we already forgotten the passing game here with RG3 in 2012?  It was mostly always quick passes to the first read and occasionally using the playaction to set up some bigger stuff downfield.  Fred Davis was no Kittle, but how many times did Robert drop back and immediately throw that same pass up the seam.  Shanahan runs one of the most QB-friendly systems in the NFL.  It isn't a jab at Purdy so much as praising Kyle Shanahan's ability to design a scheme and really focus on what Purdy does well when he is calling plays.  It also doesn't hurt that CMC is a stud and their running game is consistent.  These things do matter, especially for a young QB.  Even in the Eagles game today, Purdy look shook early when the Eagles pass rush was actually getting to him, but once the 49ers run game got going it was back to business as usual.

[clskinsfan]

3 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Have we already forgotten the passing game here with RG3 in 2012

Shanahan isnt running one bit of the offense he ran with RG3. That offense was a single read then go. Mostly zone read with some simple WC route trees. Purdy is running an offense WAY more complicated than that. He goes through progressions as well or better than anyone else in the league. Give Shanny credit for seeing it before the draft. He did the same with Cousins. In fact Purdy reminds me of Cousins quite a bit. But Purdy is an even faster processor than Cousins will ever be.

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Shanahan isnt running one bit of the offense he ran with RG3. That offense was a single read then go. Mostly zone read with some simple WC route trees. Purdy is running an offense WAY more complicated than that. He goes through progressions as well or better than anyone else in the league. Give Shanny credit for seeing it before the draft. He did the same with Cousins. In fact Purdy reminds me of Cousins quite a bit. But Purdy is an even faster processor than Cousins will ever be.

 

Shanny is known for being very QB friendly and having one of the best offensive minds in the game. I'm not saying Purdy isn't good; I think he is. But let's not forget how god awful Jimmy G was after leaving that offense. I think Purdy's success is a combination of his good traits plus Shanny's ability to see where QBs are strong and build his offensive system around that to maximize the output.

[clskinsfan]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Shanny's ability to see where QBs are strong and build his offensive system around that to maximize the output.

Thats every successful offense in history though. And it makes it much easier to design plays when you have a QB that can read the entire field in a second while dropping back. 

[mistertim]

Just now, clskinsfan said:

Thats every successful offense in history though. And it makes it much easier to design plays when you have a QB that can read the entire field in a second while dropping back. 

 

Are you really disagreeing that Kyle Shanahan has been seen for years around the league as easily being one of the premier offensive minds in the NFL, if not the best? It's not like he was a ****ty offensive coach until Purdy came along.

 

Sure, ideally any coach will design their offensive system around their QB, his strengths, and the personnel they have. But 1) as we've seen, many coaches just don't and 2) even coaches who try often fail to actually execute. 

[zCommander]

4 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Thats every successful offense in history though. And it makes it much easier to design plays when you have a QB that can read the entire field in a second while dropping back. 

 

I am sorry but no one will be faster than Tom Brady when it comes to reading the entire field in 1 second. 

[clskinsfan]

Just now, mistertim said:

Are you really disagreeing that Kyle Shanahan has been seen for years around the league as easily being one of the premier offensive minds in the NFL

No. Not at all. But look at the difference in the offense between RG3 and Purdy.

6 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I am sorry but no one will be faster than Tom Brady when it comes to reading the entire field in 1 second. 

Agree completely. And it makes you wonder why scouts dont value that ability more. 

[NoCalMike]

10 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

No. Not at all. But look at the difference in the offense between RG3 and Purdy.

Agree completely. And it makes you wonder why scouts dont value that ability more. 

 

My comment wasn't meant to say RG3 was anything close to Purdy, just that some of the aspects of the passing game were similar.  The 49ers are a championship caliber roster, and were before Purdy, they had been to a superbowl with Jimmy G at QB without a couple of the pieces they currently have and likely win that superbowl if Mahommes didn't go superman in the second half.  Purdy definitely should get credit for flourishing in the system, but it's got to be a great luxury for Purdy that he can throw a couple screen passes that seem to end up going for TD's every single game.  The Eagles O-line is still better of the two, but the 49ers O-line is no slouch, not to mention Trent Williams continuing to be a beast. 

 

I think at the end of the day, it's not so much that I don't think Purdy should get credit for what he's doing, its that I don't think the situation (roster) Purdy is in as a young QB is very comparable to many other (if any) situations other young QB's around the league are in and I think the unfortunate bi-product of that is that people incorrectly equate Purdy as the driving force behind the 49ers offense and then look at  Howell as if he should be elevating a lot of the mediocrity going on around him as a first year starter and because he hasn't been a one man offense at all times, people want to write him off already.

Edited December 4, 2023 by NoCalMike

[Skinsinparadise]

To me my take on Sam and the QB situation.

 

A.  i think I've seen enough that he can be a good Qb in this league with the right support.

 

B.  I haven't seen enough where the ceiling is he's potentially a great QB.

 

C.  If the new GM sees any Qb at their draft spot as likely great and doesn't see Sam's ceiling as great, then take the QB.

 

D.  If the new GM likes Sam's ceiling as much or more than a Qb in that draft at their pick, stick with Sam.

 

I suspect they stick with Sam.  It might be interesting if the GM is lets say smitten with Daniels.  Daniels IMO might be seen as a high ceiling QB and he might be there at their pick.

 

I am not saying Sam doesn't have a high ceiling.  I just don't think i have a good feel for that.  But to my eyes, I am confident that he can be a good Qb in the league.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[NoCalMike]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

To me my take on Sam and the QB situation.

 

A.  i think I've seen enough that he can be a good Qb in this league with the right support.

 

B.  I haven't seen enough where the ceiling is he's potentially a great QB.

 

C.  If the new GM sees any Qb at their draft spot as likely great and doesn't see Sam's ceiling as great, then take the QB.

 

D.  If the new GM likes Sam's ceiling as much or more than a Qb in that draft at their pick, stick with Sam.

 

I suspect they stick with Sam.  It might be interesting if the GM is lets say smitten with Daniels.  Daniels IMO might be seen as a high ceiling QB and he might be there at their pick.

 

I am not saying Sam doesn't have a high ceiling.  I just don't think i have a good feel for that.  But to me eyes, I am confident that he can be a good Qb in the league.

 

This all sounds fair to me.  As someone who has been pretty high on Sam this season, even during his more mediocre outings, I agree that all I think he has earned as of right now is to get a second season as the starter, beyond that I am not making any kind of prediction either way because I think a lot of times a QBs second season often will tell you more about what they will or won't be big picture rather than what they did as a first year starter/rookie.

Edited December 4, 2023 by NoCalMike

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

This all sounds fair to me.  As someone who has been pretty high on Sam this season, even during his more mediocre outings, I agree that all I think he has earned as of right now is to get a second season as the starter, beyond that I am not making any kind of prediction either way because I think a lot of times a QBs second season often will tell you more about what they will or won't be big picture rather than what they did as a first year starter/rookie.

 

I've been in the tank for Sam through thick and thin and i still am.

 

But to me this will be an interesting decision.  Some like to say how about Drake and Caleb and trading up for them -- that to me is a fantasy and unlikely based on reality of where we likely pick and I doubt teams will trade away those picks. 

 

But this QB class is kind of like 2012 in theory at least.  It's one of the deepest in memory.  So if the new GM thinks one among these guys -- Daniels, McCarthy, Nix, Penix is special and lets say thinks Howell is solid but not special, it would be a mistake to pass over QB IMO.

 

I haven't studied the QBs that deeply but I watched them in real time plenty.  Daniels in particular scares me enough where I don't want to see him in NY.   Elite speed, good arm talent.  His issue is he's thin as a rail and breakable.  But I'd say he's more intriguing than Kyler Murray was and Kyler went #1.

 

I am not saying take Daniels but I can see the new GM ponder over it as he should.    Let's say for example Daniels ends up like the next Lamar Jackson, and Howell Derek Carr?  It would bug and haunt us for years.  And yes we will eventually begrudge the new Gm for the decision.

 

I like Howell and my gut right now is to run it back with him.  But I want the next GM to weigh all options.   

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I will say that Bienemy sucks and there’s a reason why he’s never gotten a shot as a HC. The tough guy **** only works if your offense is elite or at least QB’d by Mahomes 

[Skinsinparadise]

Those are same damning statements.  Basically...

 

A.  Their play calling is meh, they are at their best when the play breaks down and Sam makes an off script play

 

B.  They don't try to get the ball to their playmakers so that makes it easier to defend

 

C.  They have some good players on offense but no one who scares you

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[RWJ]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Those are same damning statements.  Basically...

 

A.  Their play calling is meh, they are at their best when the play breaks down and Sam makes an off script play

 

B.  They don't try to get the ball to their playmakers so that makes it easier to defend

 

C.  They have some good players on offense but no one who scares you

Nuff said to me about Sam and the players have supported him all year long.  It's not Sam and I'm not stating this to you, SIP but just about others that say we need a new QB.  Yes, the new GM will have the ability to get a new one but to me it will speak volumes about the new GM if he does.  To me, he sees the ability that Howell has but the disability of coaching and play calling that is holding Howell back.  JMO, all.   

[Conn]

16 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I will say that Bienemy sucks and there’s a reason why he’s never gotten a shot as a HC. The tough guy **** only works if your offense is elite or at least QB’d by Mahomes 

These quotes are maybe the most damning we’ve seen all year, holy ****. Confirm basically everything many of us have been saying. 

[WilberMarshall]

1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Yeah, you have to go with Sam for another year. He has played well at times and looked better in his first year starting than some others who went on to become great QBs. There are a lot of guys on this roster who have never played well that need to be replaced first.

 

Next year is a rebuilding year… If Sam shows that he is your guy, great! If he’s not, then you’re picking high.

I agree with you. He has looked better than some of the first-year QBs (guys with less than 17 starts).

 

I like what I have seen of Sam.

 

Disappointed that EB hasn't done enough to shield Sam and manage him properly. 

No QB can drop back that many times and not make enough mistakes to look bad. 

He needs a complimentary run game.

 

[NoCalMike]

What we are hearing from Miami's defense isn't the first we've heard.  What it makes me wonder is if EB is play calling like this is the first year of building an offense rather than doing everything possible to try and win games now.  EB had to have seen enough from this terrible O-line and inconsistent play from the skill position players that getting results from this scheme was multi-season project yet for the most part he has stuck to the same kind of play calling every week regardless of what it has produced.  There is usually a KC fan in the Commanders spaces during the week and one big point he made was that Mahommes having success in the EB offense from the start has a lot to do with the fact that the team itself was already running that offense with Alex Smith so when Mahommes took over everyone else was already familiar with all the details, the nuances, the options, the hot routes etc etc...so it wasn't like Mahommes was stepping into a build.  Didn't hurt that Mahommes is........Mahommes, of course.

[clskinsfan]

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Brian Thomas TD grab

Thomas is really starting to grow on me. I havent done any WR tape at all. But I cant wait to dig into his film.