The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FootballZombie]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I was listening to Keim-Bram just now and Bram was speculating whether all the hits have effected Sam and to Bram's eyes he's regressed as the season has gone on which he attributes to the beating he keeps taking.

 

It was VERY obvious for a stretch from the 2nd thru 3rd qtr in the NY game. Dude was showing clear signs of Ramsey-itis.

 

Once Sam's mindspace fully committed to the idea that his OC was not going to give him any help and the Oline was not going to give him any time, his QB clock morphed into an Armageddon clock.

 

Once 2.2-2.3 seconds passed, he either had to be moving in a determined direction or the ball had to be out, whether someone was open or not. He knew full well that the likely outcome would be a sack otherwise.

 

To Sam's credit, he reeled it back in the 4th. We have not lost him yet.

 

 

That being said we can't keep sending Sam out there to get bodied every week or this will continue to get worse and especially in games where the Oline is struggling even by their own poor standards. We seem dead set on making this dude wear the cape tho.

[RandyHolt]

What is that cluster****? I especially love the blocking scheme at the 1:00 mark. Wow that is bad.

 

Ill ask you to play the Benny Hill wav in your head vs me link it. It helps ease the pain of seeing what should be max protect.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by RandyHolt

[DJHJR86]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is going to be the narrative now.  Howell is nothing but a backup QB which is handcuffing the offensive genius of Bieniemy.  

 

 

[ntotoro]

When stats and advanced analytics start making any pseudo-intellectual asshole feel like a genius...

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Can you tell me which radio show Jay is on and what time he is on?  Appreciate it.

 

On on Grant and Danny every Monday at 5pm.

[Warhead36]

I mean its not unreasonable to say Howell looks like a backup QB right now. Bad OL aside, he does hold on to the ball and he does miss throws and is slow on his progression at times. But like I said before, I don't think its fair to make any sort of judgment on him until he plays out a full season.

 

He has shown quite a few good things and honestly watching his potential development is about the only thing keeping me tuned into this team this season. If we go to Brisett for any reason I'm out.

[KDawg]

We are the 8th best offensive line.

 

Per PFF.

 

8th.

 

[Kelvin Bryant]

Remember last winter when the coaching staff decided this team was on the verge of greatness, and only being held back by its free-agent QB?

Good times, good times.

[FootballZombie]

Howell has not looked like a backup QB to me. I think he has done well all things considered weighting the situation he is in.

 

Its the situation and scheme that are the problem moreso than the QB.

That does not mean he is "the guy", he has not proven that yet, but he is far from the main contributing problem right now.

 

 

I'm pointing the finger at EB. Dude has been a train-wreck, and his choices are negatively impacting every aspect of our O.

 

[DJHJR86]

https://www.ftnfantasy.com/articles/FTN/107541/all-those-sam-howell-sacks

 

[Llevron]

Ok serious question - is it possible that throwing too much is also making the line look bad? 

 

I dont actually believe that. I think we throw it too much AND the line is trash. But im wondering if there is any way that makes sense to any of you? Like are they just tired all game from.....I dunno playing football or something I DONT GET IT 

[Fan since a Fetus]

It’s a complete failure and it starts with coaching. Having your assistant come in at the last minute to help train the oline when you fire the guy that gave us two decent seasons out of 3. This starts with Ron and Bienemy. 
 

I watched the first half of the Giants game in All 22. I. Not going to pretend I’m some all knowing jerk off, but there were things I noticed. A lot of plays called that develop downfield and no receiver getting open. Kind o f like the Giants knew exactly which routes everyone was going to run.

 

There are not a lot of dumpoff routes. If there are, they seemed to be delayed. By the time the delay happens, the sack has already incurred or is about to.

 

The few times Howell did have a dumpoff, he either didn’t get through his progressions in time or he threw it downfield. 
 

Howell is leaving some yards on the field. He is looking downfield when he can take the sure shorter thing and gain 7 yards. I’m thinking about a certain pass that went into the end zone for an incompletion instead of a solid 7 yard gain. 
 

The offensive line looks absolutely lost. They don’t know who to block when guys are blitzing. When they do block they look like the weakest set of chumps in the league. They get pushed everywhere. Is this a strength and training issue? Is it a technique issue?

 

Howell is not infallible, but he is young. He’s doing what young players do and trying to force some plays when they’re not there. I’m not really seeing anything that says he cant be a solid QB. He just needs a bit of help. 
 

All of the coaches need to be fired. I really wanted EB to work out, but he’s not. Everyone involved in football operations needs to leave! We need to keep like 2 free agents and say goodbye to all the others. Keep some of our solid players and start rebuilding the oline completely first. If every player on the oline is not replaced next year it will seem pretty negligent just like it was this year.

 

Also, how about working on the damn run game. Makes it kind of hard with a crappy oline.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Fan since a Fetus

[FootballZombie]

Just now, Llevron said:

Ok serious question - is it possible that throwing too much is also making the line look bad? 

 

Absolutely

 

-D-line gets to fire off the snap b/c they don't have to worry about the run

-LBs and DBs only have to worry about coverage and not run support, allowing them to blanket receivers even harder.

-The more you throw, the more opportunity for sacks/pressures

 

The line is certainly bad, but putting so much weight on a weakness is not gonna make it better.

[Warhead36]

The big issue is that our sacks mostly come on obvious passing downs, particularly 3rd and long. I don't have the #s in front of me but I would guess a large portion of them occur in those situations.

 

We need to be more efficient on 1st down. Stop calling so many slow developing deep pass plays and stop running into walls. Call some quick hitters, scheme up some easy 5-7 yard completions on early downs. That'll take a lot of the pressure off the OL. You're not gonna see as many all out pass rushes when its 3rd and 2 compared to 3rd and 8.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just some food for thought, but we see mentions of Josh Allen and Pat Mahomes holding the ball longer than Sam, where they ultimately make something happen as opposed to take a sack.

 

Obviously those 2 are elite, but having watched the both of them play a lot - often times it’s a simple as everything crashing around them and they step up into an oasis of open green grass and scamper for the first down marker.

 

This is anecdotal, but often times it appears everything is caving in on Sam and there is no oasis of green grass for him to escape to.  That’s not to say I haven’t watched him float his way into a sack before, he definitely has.  But too many times it’s chaotic and there is nowhere to flee.

Edited October 25, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Llevron]

12 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Absolutely

 

-D-line gets to fire off the snap b/c they don't have to worry about the run

-LBs and DBs only have to worry about coverage and not run support, allowing them to blanket receivers even harder.

-The more you throw, the more opportunity for sacks/pressures

 

The line is certainly bad, but putting so much weight on a weakness is not gonna make it better.

 

The OC is just bad man. I get what he is trying to do, but I dont get why he doesnt see its not working. 

[DJHJR86]

17 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

The OC is just bad man. I get what he is trying to do, but I dont get why he doesnt see its not working. 

 

 

Seems like he was right.

 

[Llevron]

9 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Seems like he was right.

 

 

Well I truly don't believe anything Shadey says about anything. Broken clock can still be right, but this guy is not someone I would ever call right about anything. If anything this makes me want to give EB more time cause if Shadey hates him he must have been doing something right. 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

We are the 8th best offensive line.

 

Per PFF.

 

8th.

 

 

The PFF guy must have been holding the stat sheet up side down lol

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

43 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Just some food for thought, but we see mentions of Josh Allen and Pat Mahomes holding the ball longer than Sam, where they ultimately make something happen as opposed to take a sack.

 

Obviously those 2 are elite, but having watched the both of them play a lot - often times it’s a simple as everything crashing around them and they step up into an oasis of open green grass and scamper for the first down marker.

 

This is anecdotal, but often times it appears everything is caving in on Sam and there is no oasis of green grass for him to escape to.  That’s not to say I haven’t watched him float his way into a sack before, he definitely has.  But too many times it’s chaotic and there is nowhere to flee.

 

I don't know if this is a fair comparison to anyone.

 

Mahomes and Allen are possibly the two best QBs ever when it comes to throwing "off platform."

 

Mahones literally does everything wrong. He drifts on his dropbacks. He throws late across his body. He leaves his feet. He spins in the pocket. 

 

Allen does some of the same things while also doing a Roethlsberger impression when he gets throws off after contact.

 

The point is when you do things that no other QB can do, you can magically create space and time

 

Howell's super power seems to be absorbing an inordinate number of hits without suffering any ill effects..

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean its not unreasonable to say Howell looks like a backup QB right now. Bad OL aside, he does hold on to the ball and he does miss throws and is slow on his progression at times. But like I said before, I don't think its fair to make any sort of judgment on him until he plays out a full season.

 

He has shown quite a few good things and honestly watching his potential development is about the only thing keeping me tuned into this team this season. If we go to Brisett for any reason I'm out.

 

It depends on what you consider a starter. What starters around the league would you be happy with, assuming they're healthy?

Dak

Hurts

Cousins

Stafford

J. Allen

Lamar Jackson

Burrow

Stroud

Richardson

Lawrence

Herbert

Mahomes

 

 

 

The Carr Zone

Geno Smith

Garop

Tua

D. Watson's Decline

Brock Purdy's speculative upside

 

The nebulous guys (guys who you don't trust because of outlier good seasons this year):

Baker

Goff

 

There's basically around 12 guys Quarterbacking that I'd take for this 1 season over Howell, but Cousins, who is in that group, wouldn't be if I had to have him for a bunch of seasons. Then you have another 8 guys who are more speculative, some are upside oriented (Tua, D. watson if he turns it around, Brock Purdy), others are decent floor guys that are more known commodities that are limited (guys like Carr, Garop, and Goff) and then there's Geno Smith, and Brock Purdy and Baker who are just harder in general to figure out.

 

But it is fair to say, if you're saying "he's a backup", well, what QB's around the league aren't crap or backups? 

 

Danny Nickel's as Jim Rome calls him? Josh Dobbs? Justin Fields (my guy whose stunk), Jordan Love whose god awful, the entire NFC South is straight ---. Ridder is trash, Bryce Young looks hopeless, for now, Baker's never strung together more than 8 or 10 games in a season where you have any modicum of confidence in him, Carr is reminding everyone why so many of us did not want us to trade for him or sign him when the Raiders started offering him all around the league in '20-'21, Stafford is nearly a corpse now, barely hanging on, about to retire, Geno Smith is falling back to earth, the entire AFC East is run by either dog---- QB's, or injury prone ones, save for Josh Allen. The once vaunted AFC north, now has two franchises run by incompetent seeming QB's (Pittsburgh and Cleveland), the AFC South has 3 great young QB's (Lawrence, Richardson, and Stroud) in tough situations, and one team, Tennessee, lead by a former WR. The AFC West has two HOF caliber types, one injury prone guy and Russell Wilson's retirement tour.

 

Basically, how many of these guys would you want to either be paying big bucks on a FA deal (like Carr?), or running out instead of Howell other than the obviously elite guys (of which there are maybe 10 who aren't old? Not many. Howell may or may not be a backup: but here are guys and situations I would not take over him going forward:

 

Danny Nickels

Kirk Cousins

Jordan Love

Jared Goff

Ridder

Baker

Carr

Dobbs/Kyler

Stafford

Geno Smith

Zach Wilson

Mac Jones

D. Watson (who I did want, if the price was right)

Pickett

Levis (his stock has collapsed since September '22, so I probably pass on him)

Russell

 

Not sure about Jimmy Garoppolo, if he could ever stay healthy, I actually like him, think he's above average, and he's done what Carr hasn't, been behind Center, playing reasonably high floor on teams in the Super Bowl or close to it. 

 

But basically I like Howell, and not having a ton invested in QB right now far better than the above situations, which is essentially half the league. I like Howell and flexibility more than half of the leagues options, so for me, calling him a backup doesn't really capture it. Having a backup, whose shown perhaps the chance to be a legit starter, while having total flexibility, is far better to me than having known dog----, or very expensive mediocrity. I didn't list Fields, because for me, Fields is an unknown in the same way Howell is. The Bears are a mess just like us and Fields looks like a backup, but how does he look on a team that knows how to use him? Maybe a lot better. Not sure. I wouldn't go after Fields now, too much bad road and all, but I like the question marks around Fields, just like with Howell, more than the known no upside, whatsoever, and/or expensive middling floor dudes which litter half the QB rooms around the league. He might be salvageable to me in a way that a Kenny Pickett, Zach wilson, or Ridder simply aren't. 

 

Regardless, I like the fact that we're not stuck with a player in decline near retirement like Stafford, or a guy with no future or upside like a Carr or Wilson. We can go in many directions, it's one of the few positives we have as we hopefully exit from the Ron era. We can roll the dice one more year on Howell, and build around him, or draft QB help and try to add line help on day 2 and in FA. Those are rich possibilities compared to what the Giants, Saints, and Donkeys are looking at. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by The Consigliere

[lovemaskins]

29 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

I don't know if this is a fair comparison to anyone.

 

Mahomes and Allen are possibly the two best QBs ever when it comes to throwing "off platform."

 

Mahones literally does everything wrong. He drifts on his dropbacks. He throws late across his body. He leaves his feet. He spins in the pocket. 

 

Allen does some of the same things while also doing a Roethlsberger impression when he gets throws off after contact.

 

The point is when you do things that no other QB can do, you can magically create space and time

 

Howell's super power seems to be absorbing an inordinate number of hits without suffering any ill effects..

Nah, it’s starting to affect him. His body is flinching and reacting from the punishment. He’s starting to look skittish in the pocket. The pick he threw Sunday was thrown off his back foot moving away from the pressure and the ball floated. If he steps into that throw and fires it’s a completion. 
 

I remember hearing a boxing analogy years ago of how knockouts occur. Essentially it says the body falls asleep to protect itself from further damage because it calculates the mind won’t or can’t retreat from the lethal damage it’s taking, so night night.

 

Sam is no different.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

Seems like he was right.

 

That's exactly what I've said, since before we even hired him.

 

Post turtle.

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

We are the 8th best offensive line.

 

Per PFF.

 

8th.

 

VoR rejoices.

[wit33]

53 minutes ago, lovemaskins said:

Nah, it’s starting to affect him. His body is flinching and reacting from the punishment. He’s starting to look skittish in the pocket. The pick he threw Sunday was thrown off his back foot moving away from the pressure and the ball floated. If he steps into that throw and fires it’s a completion. 
 

I remember hearing a boxing analogy years ago of how knockouts occur. Essentially it says the body falls asleep to protect itself from further damage because it calculates the mind won’t or can’t retreat from the lethal damage it’s taking, so night night.

 

Sam is no different.

It’s concerning to see criticism affecting his play and coaching undermining his ability. He’s become overly focused on quick passes, diminishing his unique ability to create and extend plays. While relying on his abilities might offset some drawbacks, it’s evident that we’re witnessing a different version of Howell as he strives to avoid sacks.

Furthermore, it’s baffling that he’s not utilized as a running option occasionally in games. When he runs, it generates a lot of excitement. It seems like his running ability has the potential to boost his performance. I was concerned EB wouldn’t prioritize this aspect of his game. Having 3-5 designed run options per game could be tremendously beneficial for him.

[The Consigliere]

8 minutes ago, wit33 said:

It’s concerning to see criticism affecting his play and coaching undermining his ability. He’s become overly focused on quick passes, diminishing his unique ability to create and extend plays. While relying on his abilities might offset some drawbacks, it’s evident that we’re witnessing a different version of Howell as he strives to avoid sacks.

Furthermore, it’s baffling that he’s not utilized as a running option occasionally in games. When he runs, it generates a lot of excitement. It seems like his running ability has the potential to boost his performance. I was concerned EB wouldn’t prioritize this aspect of his game. Having 3-5 designed run options per game could be tremendously beneficial for him.

He's a nice instinctive runner too. He's not really that fast, just good at finding seams and angles. They definitely should do a better job of taking advantage of that skill.