The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[DJHJR86]

With the caveat that the offensive line sucks, Cooley said Howell was responsible for 6 of the 9 sacks against Buffalo on Sheehan's show.  

[KDawg]

17 hours ago, wit33 said:

Getting me mixed up.

 

I’m a Howell supporter and bullish on his run and play extension abilities. Still wait and see on intangibles and other QB related stuff for me. Travesty EB is electing to not use his run ability with designed runs (I was worried about this coming in). 
 

Must feel that pressure coming from middle and make a play by either hitting the check down or extending on the edges. Not saying this an easy play, but one I want to see him make due to being high on his play extension ability and knowing he’s 6 foot and must be out of this world situationally to be an impact player. 

In basic three to five step protections leaving the pocket gets you hit and bad things happen. The pocket is the safe space. If they want Howell to move they have to adjust the protection. Slide protections, etc.

[FootballZombie]

I'm not comfortable w/ the idea of Howell running more.

 

Even dating back to the game last year, Sam is more than willing to throw his body around when moving up field. His legs are a weapon but he is way to reckless when he leaves the pocket, which leads to absolute monster shots. He's already had a couple in a short timeframe where he isn't even running that often. Imagine if he did w/ some consistency...

 

Its a problem most young move QBs have. Unfortunately, they tend not to correct it until they are injured once or twice.

 

I'm pretty sure that is why we don't see much in the way of designed runs for Howell, b/c they don't want him to go out there and get his head ripped off. They kind of protect him from himself.

 

It is a skill that can be learned tho. D Jones is a good example. He would take massive shots and fight thru contact in is early years (and fumble while doing so) but last year he was very good at minimizing damage after a run, and he ran a lot.

 

I saw a lot of Joe Burrow when he was a rookie, and I'd say the punishment Howell takes is just a hair under that. Its too much, and the goal should be to mitigate damage where possible.

 

[Going Commando]

19 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

You have got to be kidding me. I get that you think Howell will never be an NFL starting QB, but from this clip? Watch it again and tell me what happens if he throws it at 3 steps, which is the height of his drop. He gets hit while throwing it.

 

Looks like a five step drop and he hitches twice.  He's got at least two receivers that I can see who've already made their break, and he's still holding the ball.

 

Muddy pockets like that, you just have to deal with at the NFL level.  Sam is gonna have to start consistently throwing in anticipation of the break, not holding it forever.  He's gotta start seeing the field better if he's going to work out.

[CobraCommander]

Gotta run the ball more. More short routes, more checkdown options. He has the arm talent to be a QB in this league. Help him out. I'm not ready to say he's the future or a bust. BUt if EB is who he says he is then he needs to figure out ways to help Howell. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Standig

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

With the caveat that the offensive line sucks, Cooley said Howell was responsible for 6 of the 9 sacks against Buffalo on Sheehan's show.  

 

I listened to the whole thing.

 

As he elaborated, he put some of the sacks as coverage sacks, guys weren't open.

 

He thinks the O line is below average.  He doesn't like how the O line play as a unit.  And he doesn't like them as run blockers etiher.

 

He came off good with Howell -- bad day for him and he felt the protection and the scheme that day did him no favors.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Standig

 

 

This is why relying on an essentially a raw rookie QB in year 4 was a crazy ass idea even if it was the “best” one. 
 

I think Sunday is a dud no matter what. They’re overmatched. I think next Thursday will be big though. Really have to have a good offensive performance against a perceived weaker team. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[DJHJR86]

Does Gruden think it's scheming or just the receivers not playing up to their level? 

[Warhead36]

Receiver spacing was an issue under Turner too. Could be that they're just not good route runners.

[CobraCommander]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

Receiver spacing was an issue under Turner too. Could be that they're just not good route runners.

Have we really heard this as a knock on Mclaurin, Dotson or Samuel? From all accounts and draft profiles this does not seem to be the case with our receivers. Maybe the TE's are muddling things a bit. 

[Going Commando]

FWIW, I listen to the Atlanta sports radio guys and they're talking about the exact same issues with Ridder that we are with Howell.  They're hopeful about Desmond, but not sure with him in the same way we are with Sam.  The surprising thing is that their OL has apparently been bad too.  Lindstrom and McGary have apparently been struggling.  But the difference for them is they thought their OL was going to be dominant because of the heavy investment they've made.  Sounds like they are alright running the ball, but they can't pass protect.

 

Weird how similar the situation is there with them, except that their offensive talent is better and our defense is better than theirs.  Arthur Smith probably has a year more of rope than Ron does, but his fate is almost certainly going to be tied to Desmond in the way that Ron's is tied to Sam.

 

Re: Standig's article, I would hope that the FO understands they put all of their eggs in the Sam Howell basket.   If they bench him, Harris might as well fire Ron and have EB finish the season as an interim.

 

 

[wit33]

22 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sam is definitely going to take his lumps, as expected. It's frustrating when things like the OL and OC are making it harder.

 

Which is the exact two reasons I put the ceiling at 7-10.

If you watch that play, they are on him in under 2 seconds, but he doesn't get hit then. He evades for a half second, but the rest of the OL already failed.

 

This play requires the QB to make a good play in the pocket, not implying otherwise. I didn’t see an evasion attempt— he has a habit of bouncing in the pocket which delays his ability at times to make a quick throw from the pocket. If he steps up I prefer it with the idea of getting rid of it immediately, he’ll get swallowed up too often if idea is to scan field from within the guard to guard lanes. 
 

22 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

So statistically that gets credited as Sam holding the ball for 2.5 seconds, while he was already going to be hit in 2 seconds. 

 

Unless you're expecting some Escape Magic like Wentz pulled off once or twice, everyone was getting sacked on that play.

Quick throw to check down, evade, or throw it away. All QBs get sacked, his sack rate is at alarming pace though, Logan and Cooley seem to place a fair portion of the blame on him. 

 

 

22 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

If it was Mahomes, Brady, Cousins, whoever, you're pointing right at the OL failure, but because it's Sam, he is taking blame for this one.

I don’t know, they all get sacked from time to time. Brady and Mahomes are elite in their ability to manipulate and evade pressure in the pocket to buy time and gain a unique passing window not available to guys like Cousins as often. 

 

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I get the idea of he's not a big dude so you don't want him taking too many hits in open field.  But he's getting hit plenty regardless.

He’s built for it. Dude looks like a FB to me. 
 

Unfortunately QB designed runs don’t seem to be in the Reid offensive philosophy. Not to say he’s never done it, did so a bit with Smith, but not a common wrinkle of his it seems. Brutal, it’s such a weapon to throw in for an offense. 

 

5 hours ago, KDawg said:

In basic three to five step protections leaving the pocket gets you hit and bad things happen. The pocket is the safe space. If they want Howell to move they have to adjust the protection. Slide protections, etc.

I agree, you’d like to be in rhythm and operate from the pocket, but its extremely difficult to execute against the better teams. The QB must be able to extend and crew to compete with the better QBs in the NFL consistently. 
 

With that said, I believe you can create the environment you seem to want for the QB with a more ground and pound approach. I can get behind this style and have in past with Alex Smith and to a much lesser degree Heineke, but your ceiling is at risk of being lower. 
 

I hope EB keeps applying pressure and doesn’t let up on throttle. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

He’s built for it. Dude looks like a FB to me. 
 

Unfortunately QB designed runs don’t seem to be in the Reid offensive philosophy. Not to say he’s never done it, did so a bit with Smith, but not a common wrinkle of his it seems. Brutal, it’s such a weapon to throw in for an offense. 

 

 

 

I used to think he's built like a FB but seeing him up close he looked smaller than I expected.  But he does have thick legs like Russell Wilson.  So I think he can handle it to some extent.

 

Zero designed runs this season thus far according to a fantasy football guy i was listening to who lamented that because he felt that if you unleash Howell's legs he's a bigger threat.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

He’s too small and honestly not dynamic enough to have many designed runs. That’s asking for injuries. I was screaming for him to slide during that run on Sunday. 
 

Honestly, he reminds me so much of Heinicke except he has a stronger arm but less escapability. Both are smaller guys with functional athleticism. Sam should be good for 1-2 3rd down conversions a game with his legs but I think that’s the extent of it. Once his passing instincts are refined, that should be a solid combo. 

[wit33]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I used to think he's built like a FB but seeing him up close he looked smaller than I expected.  But he does have thick legs like Russell Wilson.  So I think he can handle it to some extent.

 

Hmm… I could be getting mislead by the size of his legs lol 

 

Either way, this idea of preserving dudes and losing games is wild to me. Not saying make him a full on dual threat guy, but use it to make the team better. 
 

 

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Zero designed runs this season thus far according to a fantasy football guy i was listening to who lamented that because he felt that if you unleash Howell's legs he's a bigger threat.

 

Unreal and his run ability seems to be getting coached out of him and probably stems from the strip sack TD against Cardinals (complete speculation on my part lol). 
 

Must let these dudes be themselves, no wonder 90% end up busts or backups. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Hmm… I could be getting mislead by the size of his legs lol 

 

Either way, this idea of preserving dudes and losing games is wild to me. Not saying make him a full on dual threat guy, but use it to make the team better. 

 

I think you mistake my point.  I am cool with him running.  I said if they are worried about him taking hits, its not working, he's getting wacked in the pocket anyway.

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

He’s too small and honestly not dynamic enough to have many designed runs. That’s asking for injuries. I was screaming for him to slide during that run on Sunday. 
 

Honestly, he reminds me so much of Heinicke except he has a stronger arm but less escapability. Both are smaller guys with functional athleticism. Sam should be good for 1-2 3rd down conversions a game with his legs but I think that’s the extent of it. Once his passing instincts are refined, that should be a solid combo. 

 

Stockier than Heinicke and IMO a better runner than Taylor and certainly a more willing one. 

 

I don't want to see him run like crazy but am cool with him running some.  

 

I was listening to Cooley, not that i needed to hear it from him, that was one of his main points about what he would do after watching that last game on coaches tape -- he likes him as a runner.  And he also likes that as an option for him to take on key downs when no one is open

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

FWIW, I listen to the Atlanta sports radio guys and they're talking about the exact same issues with Ridder that we are with Howell.  They're hopeful about Desmond, but not sure with him in the same way we are with Sam.  The surprising thing is that their OL has apparently been bad too.  Lindstrom and McGary have apparently been struggling.  But the difference for them is they thought their OL was going to be dominant because of the heavy investment they've made.  Sounds like they are alright running the ball, but they can't pass protect.

 

Weird how similar the situation is there with them, except that their offensive talent is better and our defense is better than theirs.  Arthur Smith probably has a year more of rope than Ron does, but his fate is almost certainly going to be tied to Desmond in the way that Ron's is tied to Sam.

 

Re: Standig's article, I would hope that the FO understands they put all of their eggs in the Sam Howell basket.   If they bench him, Harris might as well fire Ron and have EB finish the season as an interim.

 

 

The dig on Ridder was always that he had some decision making/recognition issues that caused him to take on sacks. Well that and being inconsistent. He had a lot more talent on his team than Howell did in their final seasons.  Howell lost so many of his valued players going into his final season and his OL was definitely crud. If Howell was 6" 4' he may have been drafted side by side with RIdder. I see Howell as having a better chance of making it as a starter than Ridder. He does need time to get the game to slow and needs better protection but fingers crossed, he is the better QB.

 

The Atlanta staff is going to be in trouble after investing so much on the top offensive talent they could get.

Edited September 28, 2023 by DWinzit

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Stockier than Heinicke and IMO a better runner than Taylor and certainly a more willing one. 

 

I don't want to see him run like crazy but am cool with him running some.  

 

I was listening to Cooley, not that i needed to hear it from him, that was one of his main points about what he would do after watching that game on coaches tape -- he likes him as a runner.  And he also likes that as an option for him to take on key downs when no one is open

Certainly more willing than Taylor but idk, Sam looks really awkward running the ball. The one Sunday looked super awkward to me. Definitely more productive in college but I feel Taylor was a more natural athlete. Honestly, this is a pretty sad debate tho bc I don’t think either one as “plus” NFL athleticism. 
 

But again, I don’t think Sam needs it. Long as he’s a threat to convert 3rd downs with his legs, I’m good. Maybe a read option around the goal line like Kirk used to run. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Certainly more willing than Taylor but idk, Sam looks really awkward running the ball. The one Sunday looked super awkward to me. Definitely more productive in college but I feel Taylor was a more natural athlete. Honestly, this is a pretty sad debate tho bc I don’t think either one as “plus” NFL athleticism. 
 

But again, I don’t think Sam needs it. Long as he’s a threat to convert 3rd downs with his legs, I’m good. Maybe a read option around the goal line like Kirk used to run. 

 

828 yards his last year in college on the ground.  He's not fast but has good vision.   IMO he's a better runner in open field than Heinicke and is better at taking a hit.  Heinicke looks a bit faster and with a bit more lateral agility in the pocket. 

 

But as we know from RBs -- speed isn't everything as to gaining yards.  Vision is key.  And he seems to have a good vision in open field. 

[Hooper]

The NFL is such a week to week league narratively -- it's hilarious.

 

After two weeks, the media -- and us -- were all like WASHINGTON HAS THEIR GUY.

 

Then last week happens and just like that, the national media has written Howell off.

 

If nothing else, Howell shows why QBS not drafted high have it so much harder. They don't get nearly the same amount of patience, which only puts them under more pressure. Howell has played four games. At times he has looked fantastic, at other times he has looked far from it. 

 

Barring injury or more games like Buffalo, I think Standig is right. This season is about Howell. Don't make him play tight by saying his leash is short. 

 

If Ron goes to Jacoby, he might as well resign no matter what happens after the switch.  He'll have admitted he can't pick a QB to save his life. Why would you give him another shot at it?

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Hooper

[wit33]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think you mistake my point.  I am cool with him running.  I said if they are worried about him taking hits, its not working, he's getting wacked in the pocket anyway.

I thought we were having a meeting of the minds and decided to share a bit more lol 

 

Young QBs often get blasted consistently, Howell seems to be on the extreme end. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I thought we were having a meeting of the minds and decided to share a bit more lol 

 

Young QBs often get blasted consistently, Howell seems to be on the extreme end.