The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

The only way I take Heinicke back next year is on a similar deal as his last, with permanent backup that immediately gives job back to starter when they are healthy in bold.  I don’t care what ‘his’ record is as starter.

 

[CjSuAvE22]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah people forget Heinicke isn't some kid. He's over 30. He has on real growth potential. Its one thing if he were like 23 or 24, then okay maybe you bring him back and see if he develops. But he's well past that stage now. 

 

I say let him walk. Some team will give him good backup QB money and he can enjoy the rest of his career elsewhere. 

I agree, until we find a franchise qb there should be no reason to keep a guy around because hes a "good back up" im sorry every star had to align perfectly for this team to win with him under center to win. 

[redskinss]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The only way I take Heinicke back next year is on a similar deal as his last, with permanent backup that immediately gives job back to starter when they are healthy in bold.  I don’t care what ‘his’ record is as starter.

 

I see the value in having a veteran backup who can win you games and won't be completely lost like a rookie can be but part of me just wants to move on so we're not in this endless cycle of whether or not he can be the long term starter.

If we somehow lock into our franchise guy I wouldn't mind having him back but if we're still in limbo on the starter I'd rather have guys who at least have the potential to become our franchise signal caller even if the likelihood of that is low.

[justice98]

18 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah people forget Heinicke isn't some kid. He's over 30. He has on real growth potential. Its one thing if he were like 23 or 24, then okay maybe you bring him back and see if he develops. But he's well past that stage now. 

 

I say let him walk. Some team will give him good backup QB money and he can enjoy the rest of his career elsewhere. 

 

Man, I spent 2 years arguing with folks about this.  The amount of times last year I heard variations on the theme of "he's basically a rookie", or "build around him and let him develop".  

 

But I agree, if he wants to come back as a backup, then fine.  I dont want to disrespect the value of a backup like him. Cuz the chances are high he's gonna have to play at least a little.  Looking at the QB depth chart around the league, he's probably the 4th to 6th best backup QB in the league.

 

But otherwise, he can go forth and see what's out there.  I can see him running backup for a team with an entrenched QB like Cincy or Buffalo and riding out the rest of his career doing that.  

Edited January 6, 2023 by justice98

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Obviously hindsight is 20/20.  I absolutely agreed with Ron’s decision to start Carson against the Browns at the time, based on what a mere fan can see.  Carson looked light years better in cleanup against an aggressive 49ers defense than he did after being announced the starter and taking starters reps against the Browns.  Of course rumblings come out after the fact, that he was erratic af in practice that week too.  Something we as fans weren’t privy to.  Also, not sure Ron could take the ball back from him no matter how dreadful he was in practice.  Ultimately though, it was a bad decision that allowed us some finality though on Carson - that there is absolutely no way we can bring him back, even for a fraction of what he’s in line to make.

 

However, if Ron started Heinicke and we lost - only in less ugly fashion, I don’t think there would be any finality at all on Heinicke and the jury would still sort of be out on Wentz.  All we would hear about when we lost with Heinicke is about Scott Turner, the offensive line, the defensive woes, etc.  

[skinsfan66]

11 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

Man, I spent 2 years arguing with folks about this.  The amount of times last year I heard variations on the theme of "he's basically a rookie", or "build around him and let him develop".  

 

But I agree, if he wants to come back as a backup, then fine.  I dont want to disrespect the value of a backup like him. Cuz the chances are high he's gonna have to play at least a little.  Looking at the QB depth chart around the league, he's probably the 4th to 6th best backup QB in the league.

 

But otherwise, he can go forth and see what's out there.  I can see him running backup for a team with an entrenched QB like Cincy or Buffalo and riding out the rest of his career doing that.  

He is going to be backing up somebody, and the price is right. almost sounds like some of the things being said about Cousins while on his rookie contract and looking over RG3 shoulder. The price is right for a descent backup.

[KDawg]

Heinicke loses a lot of his value if Turner is replaced. He also retains incredible value as a backup if Turner returns. Have to see where the Turner shoe lands.

 

My thought?

 

Both Heinicke and Turner are here next year.

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Heinicke loses a lot of his value if Turner is replaced. He also retains incredible value as a backup if Turner returns. Have to see where the Turner shoe lands.

 

My thought?

 

Both Heinicke and Turner are here next year.

Yeah, this is kinda where I am (except I view him as the only proven starter under Turner right now). But if Turner is gone, I don't really see the value in keeping him. I think of him in kind of a similar perspectives as Rex to Shanahan and Colt McCoy to Gruden. But I think a lot rests on how well Howell does Sunday and what happens in the draft (we will have made a decision on TH by then) I could see us drafting a Richardson if he slips, but then do we go with Richardson and then deciding whether to keep TH and Richardson or Howell and Richardson or all 3 with one inactive on gameday. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah, this is kinda where I am (except I view him as the only proven starter under Turner right now). But if Turner is gone, I don't really see the value in keeping him. I think of him in kind of a similar perspectives as Rex to Shanahan and Colt McCoy to Gruden. But I think a lot rests on how well Howell does Sunday and what happens in the draft (we will have made a decision on TH by then) I could see us drafting a Richardson if he slips, but then do we go with Richardson and then deciding whether to keep TH and Richardson or Howell and Richardson or all 3 with one inactive on gameday. 

 

Even if Howell is the guy they want to start next year I think having a three "active" and 1 practice squad QB room is a necessity in today's NFL with the way QBs go down. The more guys you have that can play, the better.

 

Two guys on rookie contracts, and a vet at minimum are necessities. The fourth guy can be whatever you need him to be. 

[Thinking Skins]

I'm really looking for interviews by Hurney in terms of what he likes in QBs. He seems like the guy making these decisions. 

[Thinking Skins]

This is hindsight and maybe belongs in the draft thread, but looking at what happened (so far) with his career this is an interesting quote from Charlie Weis. 

 

https://985thesportshub.com/2021/03/07/charlie-weis-on-zach-wilson-why-is-he-not-a-captain-of-your-football-team/

 

“If you don’t have that special IT factor, you have no chance of being being a leader of the team. I mean, one of the quarterbacks that everyone likes a whole ton in this draft is Zach Wilson, correct?” Weis asked hypothetically on the air.

“At BYU they have four captains on their football team, of which he is not one of. Now, can I ask you this question Ted? Why is your quarterback, who’s going to be taken probably the second pick in the draft, why is he not a captain of your football team?”

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

This is hindsight and maybe belongs in the draft thread, but looking at what happened (so far) with his career this is an interesting quote from Charlie Weis. 

 

https://985thesportshub.com/2021/03/07/charlie-weis-on-zach-wilson-why-is-he-not-a-captain-of-your-football-team/

 

“If you don’t have that special IT factor, you have no chance of being being a leader of the team. I mean, one of the quarterbacks that everyone likes a whole ton in this draft is Zach Wilson, correct?” Weis asked hypothetically on the air.

“At BYU they have four captains on their football team, of which he is not one of. Now, can I ask you this question Ted? Why is your quarterback, who’s going to be taken probably the second pick in the draft, why is he not a captain of your football team?”

 

I was one of the few who wasn't in on Wilson. Talented but was always missing something.

 

Unfortunately it looks like I was correct. And I agree with Weis. 

[Est.1974]

I’m done with both Heinicke and Wentz. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Exactly, and I'm just reinforcing that. You are only one person. We are other people so we have different opinions and you saying yours doesn't negate ours. 

 

 

Sure, I don't know why that needs to be said.  Who here thinks their opinion is the only one that matters and it negates the other person's opinion?

 

4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

And you aren't even the one who came at me with the Hive stuff, but I still feel like this thread has gotten to the point where somebody can't say "I want Heinicke to start" without getting the virtual Apollo Sandman called for.  

 

 

I don't recall using the word "Hive" with you or attacking someone for wanting Taylor to be the guy.    My issue is I personally don't want Heinicke to be the guy.  I'll be direct, I am pissed at how this season ended, and he had a lot to do with it.    Some here kept saying during the season Taylor will flame out towards the end of the season like last season -- his smallish body gets beat up, and his floaters -- float even more in the cold, etc.  I didn't really take a stand about Taylor fading or not at the end.  But he did.   He played poorly when we needed good games against the Giants.  He played poorly with the season on the line last year, too.  I am not pissed off at the "Hive" so to speak, I am pissed at him.  He did his best but to me the "clutch" stuff about Taylor is BS.  You aren't clutch when you play poorly in December.

 

4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

That's the thing. We don't know. He improved in some areas this year and regressed in others. 

 

OK, so its on the table for you that Heinicke is a similar talent to Kirk.  You are saying you'd like to see it play out and find out?  If so we are on different planets on that front.

 

4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Its like being the guy who routinely saves your company from collapsing but when promotions come around they say, "sorry but you just aren't the image we're looking for". 

 

I can go with the logic if he wasn't part of the collapsing himself.  2 years in a row.  Ron had the narrative coming here that his teams win in December.  Well its not been the case here and Taylor is a big part of that.  I'd call the last 2 seasons as a collapse at the end.  I excused it last year because of COVID but Taylor was bad in those Decemeber games and was bad again.  

 

4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

We traded for McNabb and Smith after great seasons. They're getting old. That's my point. He who ignores the past is destined to repeat it. 

  

Before you were saying chasing QBs who played their best 3-4 years ago.  Now its shifted to their best was recent as that's the problem?  Alex its true.  Yet, they were winning, 6-4, with Alex though but I granted he wasn't playing that hot but i think he makes a good case that you can win with even average veteran play.  He got hurt.  McNabb didn't have his peak year when he was traded, it was pretty average season for him.  

 

Jimmy G is about 1 year older than Heinicke by the way. 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Thats cool. I'm not saying I'm any kind of authority. I like what I like. I'm a guy who believes in the underdogs and believes that a lot of people get press because of things beyond their ability like their market. If Eli's last name was Jones instead of Manning dude would have been benched after his 17, 18, and 20 or 25 pic seasons instead he got more chances and went to two SBs. 

 

But I'm not here for that. I like who I like and that's who I am. This isn't about Keenum or Mullins or Campbell or any of those other QBs. Its about Heinicke and how fans are treated for liking him and saying we like him as a starter. I used to get into discussions with OldFan about Campbell and we'd go back and forth and I'd create QB grading systems and analyze things about his play and he'd inspect it and agree or disagree, but it wasn't on some level of "oh you're just in that Camp so you're delusional". Even you and I have had a lot of these very discussions in the past and we've been able to disagree and stay above it all. And you aren't even the one who came at me with the Hive stuff, but I still feel like this thread has gotten to the point where somebody can't say "I want Heinicke to start" without getting the virtual Apollo Sandman called for.  

 

 

I know we've debated this in the past, and I respect your opinion on what you like. My issue is when you try to make it sound like your view of Heinicke is based on his play vs the fact that he's an underdog and you really like underdogs.

 

He's really just not a very good QB and is very limited. He's "won" games where we had a successful rushing attack and top notch defensive efforts, as well as several miracle catches from Terry. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people who could logically make the football case that Heinicke was a big factor in winning most of those games.

 

Your view of him is an emotional one. He's an underdog, and you like that. Which is fine, and I actually kind of dig. But I wish you'd just admit that from the start. It's not really based on logic or football analysis...it's based on your love of underdogs in general.

[DJHJR86]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

However, if Ron started Heinicke and we lost - only in less ugly fashion, I don’t think there would be any finality at all on Heinicke and the jury would still sort of be out on Wentz.  All we would hear about when we lost with Heinicke is about Scott Turner, the offensive line, the defensive woes, etc.  

 

If they lost less ugly with Heinicke he would be done and relegated to a decent backup option for this team.  They would then go to Wentz for the final game to see what they had in him.  And once they lost that game ugly, then the line, playcalling, all of the players being hurt would be used as excuses.  "He still didn't have Brian Robinson Jr.!"

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

If they lost less ugly with Heinicke he would be done and relegated to a decent backup option for this team.  They would then go to Wentz for the final game to see what they had in him.  And once they lost that game ugly, then the line, playcalling, all of the players being hurt would be used as excuses.  "He still didn't have Brian Robinson Jr.!"

 

Which is why seeing him was a good thing.

 

Though, keeping him in after the first two drives was not a good thing. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

If they lost less ugly with Heinicke he would be done and relegated to a decent backup option for this team. 

You know that’s BS.  He was done and relegated to a decent backup in a 40 rush, dominant defensive performance way, before the Browns game.

 

But when he lost, the loud and proud contingent would be telling us all about how it’s everyone’s fault but his.

[zCommander]

I interrupt all this talk about Taylor with this very important message:

 

 

 

 

By the way my lucky number in my life has always revolved around the #7.

 

[DJHJR86]

29 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You know that’s BS.  He was done and relegated to a decent backup in a 40 rush, dominant defensive performance way, before the Browns game.

 

Yes, he was relegated to a decent backup in 2021.  In 2022, however, as the best option on this team, you would have kept starting him if they won the Browns game.  There would have been no desire to see how Wentz looked if he somehow won that game and they went to the playoffs.  

[Conn]

@Thinking Skins I’m just going to tag you because this is obviously a post inspired by your recent thoughts. But I don’t mean it as a call-out post, and it’s not mean-spirited, I just can’t ignore what I’m reading.
 

Are we still not at the point as a society where we can just call a dumb opinion a dumb opinion? Not every opinion is created equal, period. Not every argument deserves the same intellectual scrutiny and respect. There is absolutely such a thing as a bad, poorly supported, incorrect, or even intellectually dishonest opinion. 

 

In a football sense, “Heinicke may be an NFL starter” is one of those opinions. Pick your poison of the above options, but it’s just bad and incorrect and it’s not really a matter of “agree to disagree”. It’s not disrespectful, or antithetical to message board culture, to judge a bad opinion on its merits and dismiss it once considered. I’ll repeat—all opinions are not created equal or deserving of the same consideration. Nobody is entitled to have others take their bad ideas seriously for any length of time.
 

25+ starts for a 30 year old NFL journeyman who is mistake-prone and doesn’t have a physical NFL skillset…that’s plenty of information to make a decision with. 
 

If you say dumb things in a public forum and don’t like the response, you have to at least consider that the problem might be with what you said and not just with the reception of it. Jumping immediately to some feeling of persecution or talking about in-groups and out-groups, in this case, shows a lack of self-reflection and an extremely overweighted sense of confidence in your own opinion.
 

SIP has correctly pointed out that you’ve pined for bad QBs for years, so this isn’t exactly surprising. A lot of your post content is good, you’ve been here forever, I enjoy your posts. But I couldn’t be silent after witnessing this exchange—apologies if it comes across as an attack on you or your posting style but you just seem like someone who came to a decision many years ago on this “QB theory” of yours and despite any new information, just can’t let it go. You’re so sure of yourself that you even insist a message board that has always piled on dumb opinions, is now engaging in some new and negative behavior against yours. The Campbell debates of years past were not any more honorable or well-behaved than things are now—people called him Candle the way that some call Wentz “Wince” (I’ve always found this sort of thing dumb, even when applied to our rivals) and things got way nastier back then because there was much less consensus imo. Your QB posts hit a wide-ranging series of points with such confident incorrectness, posts a mile wide but an inch deep. Just take a step back and breathe and consider that you might be wrong. And after writing this novella, I’ll do the same, and reflect on whether I’m too sure of myself  here.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Conn

[Chump Bailey]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

I’m done with both Heinicke and Wentz. 

 

Me too. Find a replacement in the draft or UFDA route. I won't be lying awake at night worrying about retaining Heinicke. 

[zCommander]

I am telling you Howell was a steal in the 5th round.

 

I am so hoping for a strong showing of Howell on Sunday so we don't waste time and money on a retread. 

[88Comrade2000]

Doesn't matter who the qb is this fall, unless they widely overperform, we will going elsewhere in 24.

[JSSkinz]

6 minutes ago, zCommander said:

I am so hoping for a strong showing of Howell on Sunday so we don't waste time and money on a retread. 

How in the world could you draw that conclusion from just one game?