The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

I think we probably should stick with heinicke but on a very short leash.

I disagree.  I think you stick with Heinicke until you make the playoffs or miss the playoffs.  Give him the team and let everybody know. There's no reason for it to be a story every week whether or not he's going to be the starter the next week, or get pulled if he has a bad game.

 

You gotta push the chips into the middle and just go with it.  If he bombs out a few weeks in a row you can reassess.  

 

But I think you have to fully commit to Heinicke for the remainder of this year. 

 

NOTE: I would NOT commit to him more than this year.  But that's a war for another day.

[redskinss]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I disagree.  I think you stick with Heinicke until you make the playoffs or miss the playoffs.  Give him the team and let everybody know. There's no reason for it to be a story every week whether or not he's going to be the starter the next week, or get pulled if he has a bad game.

 

You gotta push the chips into the middle and just go with it.  If he bombs out a few weeks in a row you can reassess.  

 

But I think you have to fully commit to Heinicke for the remainder of this year. 

 

NOTE: I would NOT commit to him more than this year.  But that's a war for another day.

I'm not saying his first ugly pass he should be pulled, that is inevitable we should just pull him now under those circumstances. 

I think an ugly loss to the Texans that involves the rest of the team looking good and I'd put a healthy wentz in.

I think Rivera would too.

 

[TChaler70]

TH was part of a team that just won in prime time against the hated 8-0 green birds. Carson cant handle pressure on or off the field. The sacks would go back up and Terrys numbers would drop along with the the national recognition he is finally getting. The Oline and Terry would stay classy but be pissed and I can only imagine the board if Carson looked like he did the last 3 or 4 games he played were we scored 6,10,12, 17, on offense and the game loosing pick in the Titans game. I dare you to put Carson back in, I double dog dare you!

[HigSkin]

The Oline has been porous for several games now and they finally went to extra TE's to chip block against Philly.  It's a head scratcher.  What took them so long?

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

1 minute ago, HigSkin said:

The Oline has been porous for several games now and they finally went to extra TE's to chip block against Philly.  It's a head scratcher.  What took them so long?

Turner.

[CapsSkins]

I would happily trade a 1st round pick for Derek Carr and use the rest on OL and depth.

 

You see what we're able to do with Heinicke and don't think we would be a legit contender with a legit top-16 QB in Carr? Y'all crazy.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

36 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Saving is reserved for Mahomes and Allen. The rest of the league needs talent around them to win. 

Umm, these guys also need talent around them to win as well.

 

By no means am I downplaying their abilities, but point being, they aren’t forced into playing with a bunch of nobodies.  Both Travis Kelce and Diggs are elite weapons, and there are complimentary pieces around them - particularly Allen.  One could argue Reid’s offenses have historically been made up of lots of complimentary players and few stars.

 

In summary, I think % of cap is much less important than you make it, across the board.  I just can’t draw hard lines on X% of cap and tie it back to every result like you seem to do.  Managing assets and finessing the cap is more important than any one players cap hit.  ROI also matters for every other position on the roster as well.  I just think it’s much too simplified to isolate the QB contract as the make or break factor for teams.

[Koolblue13]

14 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

I would happily trade a 1st round pick for Derek Carr and use the rest on OL and depth.

 

You see what we're able to do with Heinicke and don't think we would be a legit contender with a legit top-16 QB in Carr? Y'all crazy.  

Isn't he going to be a FA?  *corrected*

Edited November 16, 2022 by Koolblue13

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Isn't he going to be a FA?

 

He signed an extension I believe. The Raiders do have an out after this season with minimal dead cap but obviously they would trade him rather than cutting him outright.

[Ball Security]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Isn't he going to be a FA?

No, he’s signe through 2025.  He’s a bigger cap hit than Wentz.  It’d be difficult to keep Payne in that scenario.  Not saying it can’t be done, but there would be some sacrifices to the roster if it were to happen.

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, Ball Security said:

No, he’s signe through 2025.  He’s a bigger cap hit than Wentz.  It’d be difficult to keep Payne in that scenario.  Not saying it can’t be done, but there would be some sacrifices to the roster if it were to happen.

 

Man we gotta keep Payne. I'd rather trade Sweat. Can't split up Allen-Payne IMO.

[NoCalMike]

I think where I am at in this discussion is that I feel at this point it is a lot less about Heinicke than it is about Wentz.  If you look at Heinicke's overall play in this last month, it screams everything you'd expect from a backup caliber QB, so to me, the only reason you'd stick with him, is because of a lack of confidence in whoever the starting QB was.   And I am a bit puzzled that you go out and trade assets for a QB that you are then ready to give up on after 6 starts in a new offense in favor of a QB you have twice already rejected as a potential starter.  I also think when it comes to Heinicke however, is that you can watch these games and have a valid debate over whether the team is now winning because of Heinicke or because the team around Heinicke is extremely helpful in limiting the burden on Heinicke to contribute and if you think the later is a big part of why they are winning right now, then I don't really understand why the coaches or the fans don't think that same scenario could play out with Wentz under center.   

 

 

[wit33]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Umm, these guys also need talent around them to win as well.

 

By no means am I downplaying their abilities, but point being, they aren’t forced into playing with a bunch of nobodies.  Both Travis Kelce and Diggs are elite weapons, and there are complimentary pieces around them - particularly Allen.  One could argue Reid’s offenses have historically been made up of lots of complimentary players and few stars.

 

Data is pretty overwhelming in regards to the QB being paid over 12% of the cap relating to their ability to get to championship games. I do t just measure super bowl wins (silly to do so IMO). 
 

I only get into minutia of cap percentage relating to QBs, I become very ignorant with how to build a roster outside of that. 
 

With that said, arguments can be made the other way and exceptions will always be available to be highlighted. The NFL game is definition of chaos and the amount of ways to tie up all the variables to create a force to get through the chaos and succeed are endless.
 

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

In summary, I think % of cap is much less important than you make it, across the board.  I just can’t draw hard lines on X% of cap and tie it back to every result like you seem to do.  Managing assets and finessing the cap is more important than any one players cap hit.  ROI also matters for every other position on the roster as well.  I just think it’s much too simplified to isolate the QB contract as the make or break factor for teams

 

Like I said, with the QB I’m more willing to draw a hardline depending on the situation. 10% is the sweet spot number, if you can get your QB number there in a season that’s solid. 
 

Im also observing how teams will go all in one or two years then take the QB salary hit in other years. 

[CapsSkins]

5 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I think where I am at in this discussion is that I feel at this point it is a lot less about Heinicke than it is about Wentz.  If you look at Heinicke's overall play in this last month, it screams everything you'd expect from a backup caliber QB, so to me, the only reason you'd stick with him, is because of a lack of confidence in whoever the starting QB was.   And I am a bit puzzled that you go out and trade assets for a QB that you are then ready to give up on after 6 starts in a new offense in favor of a QB you have twice already rejected as a potential starter.  I also think when it comes to Heinicke however, is that you can watch these games and have a valid debate over whether the team is now winning because of Heinicke or because the team around Heinicke is extremely helpful in limiting the burden on Heinicke to contribute and if you think the later is a big part of why they are winning right now, then I don't really understand why the coaches or the fans don't think that same scenario could play out with Wentz under center.   

 

 

 

Why is this puzzling? Wentz looked worse here than he did in Indy. A complete statue in the pocket who couldn't elude the pass rush and inconsistent (to be generous) touch on his throws.

[88Comrade2000]

Taylor starts until he loses 2 games in a row. If that happens, Carson likely finishes the season. I don’t see Howell seeing the field.

 

If Taylor leads the team to the playoffs, he’s earned a 2 year extension. If he doesn’t, then just a year extension.

 

If Carson plays the majority of the 7 remaining games; I think he comes back. Team fixes the line and rides with him in 23.

 

Since the team is for sale, I don’t see us making major moves for qb. We aren’t trading for Carr or anyone else. We aren’t trading up. We will go with status quo or sign another stopgap. Ron will not be able to do something big; especially since his future likely only short term. I also don’t think Dan will want to do anything big, if he’s about to sell the team.

 

Now, if the new owner can be in place before the new league year starts; all bets are off as to what we do at qb. If a new owner could take over in January, everyone is getting fired and that will be up to the new people.

 

 

[DJHJR86]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am far from married to Carr.  And I don't love Carr's play but like it.  But its a hard like.  He's definitely on the table for me.  And judging by what Keim said last year, he'd likely be on the table for this FO.   Will see.

 

It's a hard no from me on Carr.  Mainly because that will be the 3rd straight year where go after another team's cast off.  2nd straight year where they trade for one.  And to me you only do that if you love the guy as a player.  

[Koolblue13]

I don't want another retread QB, just draft one every year.

[FLSkinz83]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

The Oline has been porous for several games now and they finally went to extra TE's to chip block against Philly.  It's a head scratcher.  What took them so long?

 

The coaching staff has shown for 3 years now that they are slow to make adjustments.   

[@DCGoldPants]

40 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

I don’t see Howell seeing the field.

 

Nor should he. I like that he's been getting maybe a little more work the past few weeks and isn't likely to play this year. 

 

If it's the last game of the year and the team is eliminated, maybe I'd give him the start to evaluate. 

[FLSkinz83]

I think TH has earned a two year contract no matter what at this point.   High end back up QB money with incentives if he becomes the starter.   

[tmandoug1]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Man we gotta keep Payne. I'd rather trade Sweat. Can't split up Allen-Payne IMO.

Who would you keeping....Chase or Payne?

[Zim489]

21 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't want another retread QB, just draft one every year.

Yeah I want to develop our own QB for once. Gotta be a first rounder though

[NoCalMike]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Why is this puzzling? Wentz looked worse here than he did in Indy. A complete statue in the pocket who couldn't elude the pass rush and inconsistent (to be generous) touch on his throws.

 

Yet somehow as a passer his stats were largely better than Heinicke's and showed some things in those games we haven't seen being a part of the offense since he got injured.

[CapsSkins]

6 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Yet somehow as a passer his stats were largely better than Heinicke's and showed some things in those games we haven't seen being a part of the offense since he got injured.

 

I'm not surprised because Wentz has by far a much better arm and can make throws that Heinicke simply can't.

 

That said, there's more to the position than that. If we could take Heinicke's brain and put it in Wentz's body, we'd be golden. Unfortunately, we can't. So we're stuck with Noodle Arm Moxie Man and the No Touch Statue for the rest of the season. NAMM gives us the best chance to succeed this year and we can get out of NTS's contract in the offseason, leaving us to wander the desert for a top-16 QB once again. 

[Skinsfan1311]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

I think where I am at in this discussion is that I feel at this point it is a lot less about Heinicke than it is about Wentz.  If you look at Heinicke's overall play in this last month, it screams everything you'd expect from a backup caliber QB, so to me, the only reason you'd stick with him, is because of a lack of confidence in whoever the starting QB was.   And I am a bit puzzled that you go out and trade assets for a QB that you are then ready to give up on after 6 starts in a new offense in favor of a QB you have twice already rejected as a potential starter.  I also think when it comes to Heinicke however, is that you can watch these games and have a valid debate over whether the team is now winning because of Heinicke or because the team around Heinicke is extremely helpful in limiting the burden on Heinicke to contribute and if you think the later is a big part of why they are winning right now, then I don't really understand why the coaches or the fans don't think that same scenario could play out with Wentz under center.   

 

 

Very valid points.

I don't think that the same scenario could play out with Wentz under center because he holds the ball too long and can't get out of his own way. 

If he had the same legs and "escapability" that he had when he played, before his injury in Philly, this wouldn't even be up for debate.  You start him.   

That being said, he's not the same.  Our O-line is not very good and the team has been rallying behind Heinicke, so you stick the the QB that's helping stack W's, regardless of how.