The Official Roster Thread or similar ;)

[bowhunter]

1 hour ago, dyst said:

Really sucks that Reyes is out this week. Guy like him needs the game reps.

Either that or FO wants to keep him off of National TV

[Dark Acre]

1 hour ago, Master Blaster said:

Can’t see WFT only keeping 5 at both LB and CB simply because the bottom guys are needed for ST’s

Then they're going to have to come from somewhere else.

In this day of watered-down NFL, you don't really need a kicking game.  First, you find a guy who can put kickoffs through the other team's endzone every time.  Second, you go for 2 every TD.  Third, you go for it on 4th rather than kick FGs.  5th, you punt out of bounds or out of the end zone.  With a D with our potential, it's feasible.

[Malapropismic Depository]

41 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

Either that or FO wants to keep him off of National TV

 

Are you sure it's National ?

All I'm seeing is the DC local NBC Channel, as far as TV goes.

It does say ESPN, but that's under radio, so maybe you thought it was ESPN on TV ?

Or maybe I missed something.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

3 hours ago, Borgold said:

He's a poor man's Kelvin Harmon.

Too soon. 😂

[skinsfan93]

3 hours ago, Borgold said:

Other than his draft cost, I'm not sure why AGG is in the discussion. He just hasn't produced when given the opportunity. He's a poor man's Kelvin Harmon.

I don’t know how you can say this? The guy had no preseason last year as a rookie, played with Haskins and a limping qb in Smith and is taller and faster than Harmon. You don’t give up on a young receiver drafted in the 4th round at least for a couple years. 
 

I said it last week that Carter could be the 6th or 7th receiver but if Dax can show more progress as a slot guy and in his return game I think he takes that last spot and is active on game days. 

[The Rook]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

   As for Harmon he played one season.  He was OK in season 1.  Nothing great.  Nothing bad either though.  I don't recall people down on Harmon after his rookie season.  He got hurt in season 2.   That's been his career so far.

 

I'd agree with you if we had a 3 season sample of Harmon play as you suggest, then indeed the verdict would be in.    I guess will see how well Harmon plays perhaps in his season 2 of actually playing elsewhere.  Who knows? 

 

 

Maybe I am alone in this, but I remember Harmon in his first season as a hard-nosed blocker in the running and passing game.  He would run to stick his nose in there to help the ball carrier or receiver.  Played with a lot of heart.  Maybe his ceiling was James Thrash level, but I have no problem with that.  I was pulling for him and I hope he is able to continue in his NFL career.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook 

[bowhunter]

36 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Are you sure it's National ?

All I'm seeing is the DC local NBC Channel, as far as TV goes.

It does say ESPN, but that's under radio, so maybe you thought it was ESPN on TV ?

Or maybe I missed something.

I was implying that the FO doesn't want much tape out on him in case he needs to clear waivers at some point. It was kind of tongue in cheek

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

57 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

I was implying that the FO doesn't want much tape out on him in case he needs to clear waivers at some point. It was kind of tongue in cheek

 

1 hour ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Are you sure it's National ?

All I'm seeing is the DC local NBC Channel, as far as TV goes.

It does say ESPN, but that's under radio, so maybe you thought it was ESPN on TV ?

Or maybe I missed something.

 

@bowhunter is on it with the tongue and cheek…but the game is on live via nfl network…so sorry SOBs like me get to see it.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My main beef with him watching him was his decision making IMO was atrocious.  Ironically it was my same beef with Sam Darnold -- also a dude I slammed the heck out of when he was on the trade market this off season.  I agree we can safely say Rosen is a bust.  I think there is a decent shot Darnold ends up a bust, too -- though it wouldn't shock me if he ends up a marginal starter so by that token better than Rosen.  But I didn't want either dude. 

 

If I recall, you were far more harsh in regards to Darnold a few months back.  Pretty sure it was you, you had a post that presented some info and a video, it swayed me into the Darnold is a bust camp.

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think with all these guys (late rounders) its all about context.  Can they be a 4th receiver type?    As for Harmon he played one season.  He was OK in season 1.  Nothing great.  Nothing bad either though.  I don't recall people down on Harmon after his rookie season.  He got hurt in season 2.   That's been his career so far.

 

I was down on him after his rookie season, with some posts here to back that up.  In order to develop something you kind of need to flash it every now and then.  You're developing from something instead of from nothing.  Harmon could never separate against man coverage.  I don't recall him flashing that as a rookie, and he couldn't in college.  Training camp reports cite his ability here as the same it's always been.  High effort, contested catch guy, that needs to be thrown open by an aggressive QB.  I think his floor and his ceiling are basically the same thing.  He's maxed out.

[skinny21]

5 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Going to be honest, Kelvin Harmon is a poor mans Kelvin Harmon.  People put Harmon on a pedestal, when he did the minimal production you'd expect anybody in the NFL to do when it's schemed up against zones.

 

That said, I'm also not sure why AGG is in the discussion.  Unless the coaches think he shows signs of figuring out how to beat press coverage?

I have probably written more than anyone in defense of Harmon, but even I expressed my doubts he’d make the team, and that was before Milne started stepping up or knowing Sims Jr would put up a solid camp.  As to the minimal production, it’s a fair point - he put up comparable numbers to Richardson, Pryor and Doctson… in other words, was not great.  Of course, he did it as a rookie…

@Skinsinparadisealready pointed out that he’s only played one season.  Anyway, doesn’t matter, he’s not a factor any more.

 

I agree about AGG.  Don’t have anything against him (hoping for the best in fact), but Milne already looks/sounds more promising, and we’re needing to field a punt returner (Carter/Sims Jr, assuming they aren’t ready to trust Milne).

4 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

Because his selection always came with the idea that he wasn't close to NFL ready, having played at Liberty. He didn't have a training camp last year and then was hampered by injuries and innefective QB play. Dumping him now seems like a foolish decision.

 

Maybe.  If it comes down to it though, I’d put Milne and one of the other potential returners ahead of him.  Given what we’ve seen/heard so far, is he or Milne more likely to not clear waivers?

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

I have probably written more than anyone in defense of Harmon, but even I expressed my doubts he’d make the team, and that was before Milne started stepping up or knowing Sims Jr would put up a solid camp.  As to the minimal production, it’s a fair point - he put up comparable numbers to Richardson, Pryor and Doctson… in other words, was not great.  Of course, he did it as a rookie…

@Skinsinparadisealready pointed out that he’s only played one season.  Anyway, doesn’t matter, he’s not a factor any more.

 

I agree about AGG.  Don’t have anything against him (hoping for the best in fact), but Milne already looks/sounds more promising, and we’re needing to field a punt returner (Carter/Sims Jr, assuming they aren’t ready to trust Milne).

Maybe.  If it comes down to it though, I’d put Milne and one of the other potential returners ahead of him.  Given what we’ve seen/heard so far, is he or Milne more likely to not clear waivers?

I think Milne has a better chance. There’s really nothing special about him. I’d worry mostly about Jets snatching him to pair with his college QB

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

If I recall, you were far more harsh in regards to Darnold a few months back.  Pretty sure it was you, you had a post that presented some info and a video, it swayed me into the Darnold is a bust camp.

 

 

 

I hammered Darnold more than Rosen.  But I was pretty harsh on both.  What they both had in common with me is initially in real time (without studying them) bought into the hype about both at the time of that draft to an extent.  But once they became potential trade bait, I watched a bunch of their college games and pro games and was turned off.

 

5 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I was down on him after his rookie season, with some posts here to back that up.  In order to develop something you kind of need to flash it every now and then.  You're developing from something instead of from nothing.  Harmon could never separate against man coverage.  I don't recall him flashing that as a rookie, and he couldn't in college.  Training camp reports cite his ability here as the same it's always been.  High effort, contested catch guy, that needs to be thrown open by an aggressive QB.  I think his floor and his ceiling are basically the same thing.  He's maxed out.

 

Harmon was a contested catch guy in college and would block really well and was feisty with the ball in his hands.  In his rookie season in the NFL, he showed flashes of all of the above and reputedly has a strong work ethic to match.

 

Some dudes with that profile actually indeed succeed in the NFL.  Yeah Doctson has soured us (me to some extent, too) on those qualities as if contested catch guys all fail.  But those attributes can matter in the NFL albeit everything being equal I am into seperate/good releases type of WRs.  

 

Context to me though matters.  Not every player clearly is a killer starter.  If your 6th rounder is a capable backup, that's a really good pick.   Your roster should be filled up with capable backups.  Do I think Harmon has the ability to be a decent backup?  Yes, I do. 

 

I am pimping Milne here some.  Is it because I think he's a star in the making.  Nope.  But you need good depth players.    I think he has that capability.  

 

I don't think Harmon has maxed out in one season.  Anything is possible.  Will see.  If we had a 3 season sample already of Harmon as your post suggested, I'd be with you 100%.  But 1 season where he actually did show flashes of what he did in college doesn't IMO cancel his career going forward. 

 

You got me about Harmon or any of these later round prospects if they end up working out.  But IMO you run with those that bring something to the table.  Backups aren't superstars but are important. 

 

AGG hasn't shown really anything yet, granted he's not had a major opportunity to do so.   Harmon at least has shown flashes of what he did in college.  That's part of the reason why I want to see a good game or a killer practice from AGG to reassure me about something.  I've at least seen something from Harmon that reminded me of his college game.  Not saying AGG doesn't have it in him.  But I wanted to see it.  In the practices I watched AGG definitely to my eyes didn't stand out over Harmon.  Both to me look fine to good.    But AGG was drafted by this regime and Harmon wasn't.  Also who knows about what their injury report on Harmon is?

 

And I am judging AGG the same as Harmon as for the bar. That is, i am not expecting AGG to be a killer starter and comparing him to Terry.  Its can he be a good backup.  Is he better than the scrubs we've typically had as back up WRs over the years?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

I think Milne has a better chance. There’s really nothing special about him. I’d worry mostly about Jets snatching him to pair with his college QB

 

I am rooting for Milne to make the roster, will see.   As for nothing special about him, I disagree.  The thing that struck me watching him in college was the dude has unbelievable hands.  His body control, ability to high point the ball, ability to make contested catched is excellent IMO.  And I saw some of that in the camp practices I watched.  

 

I think what limits him is the same thing that's being discussed with AGG and Harmon which is does he have the speed and quickness to seperate?    I think if you keep him in the slot you'd get the best from him.  

 

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

12 hours ago, Borgold said:

Other than his draft cost, I'm not sure why AGG is in the discussion. He just hasn't produced when given the opportunity. He's a poor man's Kelvin Harmon.

 

Holy crap, has your handle always been Borgold, or did you change it to that from Burgold? 

 

Is this another Berenstain Bears situation where I have had a false memory in my head for years?

[Going Commando]

11 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

If he hasn't flashed potential to beat press, then there has to be someone else (Milne maybe?) who might have a higher floor/ceiling?  Because if you can't handle press, then you're not doing anything in the NFL, especially not in the playoffs.

 

It's a common issue in the transition from the college game to the NFL.  The caliber of press coverage is probably the biggest difference between playing receiver at each level.  It's not unusual for players to develop their release game in the NFL, but obviously not everyone does.  It takes strength and instinct as well as the fluidity to stack moves on top of each other well so your route doesn't get all segmented.

 

AGG's most pronounced weakness on film at Liberty was a lack of play strength to play through contact at the catch point and in the window at the beginning of snaps.  It was clear he'd need time to develop NFL caliber strength, and maybe he still does.  Getting Covid is no joke and it could easily hamper strength training, especially if you stack a leg injury on top of that.

 

We can help him out in the meantime by playing him off the line and with pre snap motion.  That's what a good staff would do.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am rooting for Milne to make the roster, will see.   As for nothing special about him, I disagree.  The thing that struck me watching him in college was the dude has unbelievable hands.  His body control, ability to high point the ball, ability to make contested catched is excellent IMO.  And I saw some of that in the camp practices I watched.  

 

I like Milne and I'm pulling for him to make the active roster because I think his routes are good, his hands are good, and he can return punts and won't turtle up and drop them when he feels the coverage coming like Steven Sims does.  But the attributes you list here: hands, ability to high point the ball, and ability to make contested catches seem more pronounced in AGG's game than Milne's to me.  I thought AGG looked freakishly good at those things in his Liberty cut ups, where he had some of the most circusy big plays I can remember.  And it looked like he would have a few moments in camps where those prodigious hands and body control would occasionally pop.  To me, it sounds like he's been limited by opportunity as much as anything else.

 

I see AGG as a lanky deep threat with spectacular hands whose success is going to hinge on whether or not he develops the strength and aggression to play at this level.  I think his ceiling is far higher than Cam Sims's, but that he's going to have to aggressively compete to take ownership of a role on the team in the way Sims did.  One of my concerns about him when we picked him is that, despite his talent, he doesn't have the personality of a typical NFL player.  I worry that he doesn't have that dog in him to make it as a fringe roster guy in the NFL's meat grinder.  Really hope he proves me wrong, because I like the young guy and want to see him succeed.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

12 hours ago, mhd24 said:

Just listened to Michael Lombardi's latest podcast the GM shuffle.  Apparently Toney has caused major headaches behind the scenes for the Giants.  There were red flags around him in the draft.

 

 

Toney started his NFL offseason off by struggling to participate in Rookie Minicamp due to cleat issues. From there, he skipped Team OTA’s while working on signing his rookie contract, still an unusual situation to say the least. After that, Toney tested positive for COVID-19 a week before training camp started.

 

Toney was activated off the COVID/Reserve list five days later. The University of Florida alum did not participate in any on-field drills until August 2nd. The following day, he finally participated in on-field individual receiver drills for the first time during camp.

 

Just a week later, Toney didn’t practice in front of fans during the Giants’ ‘Fan Fest’ Practice on Wednesday night last week. From there, Toney did not practice Thursday and Friday leading up to his preseason game.

 

Inauspiciously, Tony was nowhere to be found during pregame warmups and he didn’t even appear on the sidelines during what should’ve been his first NFL game.

 

Toney was apparently dealing with another mysterious injury “late in the week” that led to him missing the game.

 

In short, Toney has had a very strange and unusual rookie offseason.

 

The NY Giants haven’t had this much uncertainty from their #1 pick in seven years since taking their last first-round receiver in Odell Beckham Jr.

Toney needs to pick it up immediately or he could end up staring at a lost first season.

 

Toney doesn’t want to follow into the steps of guys like Corey Coleman, Josh Doctson, or Laquon Treadwell as perennial 1st round receiver busts. Whatever is going on with Toney, the NY Giants must figure out immediately or #89 could get lost in the shuffle of the team’s offense.

[Tress Is The Way]

In my humble opinion it is Cam Sims or AGG for the 6th receiver spot.

 

McLaurin

Samuel

Humphries

Brown

Mline

Sims or AGG

 

Got a pretty decent WR core right there. Only thing is who will they keep for KR/PR? Will they go 7 to keep Carter or Johnson?

Edited August 19, 2021 by ZarG3

[dckey]

All this talk of Cam Sims not making it, but Isn't he our best special teams coverage WR?  If so wouldn't that almost guarantee him a spot?

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I like Milne and I'm pulling for him to make the active roster because I think his routes are good, his hands are good, and he can return punts and won't turtle up and drop them when he feels the coverage coming like Steven Sims does.  But the attributes you list here: hands, ability to high point the ball, and ability to make contested catches seem more pronounced in AGG's game than Milne's to me. 

 

 

It's been awhile since I've watched Gandy-Golden so i am going on memory which might be sketchy but at the time I watched him a lot and also watched Milne a lot.  I disagree with the spectacular hands comment from you so I think our divide is based on that.   And watching both in camp recenty influences my take. 

 

Milne to me is the dude with spectacular hands.  And I'll double down on that point after watching them both in practice in Richmond.   I was right in front of the receivers for 5 practices and AGG was all right, nothing that really jumped at me about him.  Some dudes that are slammed here like Cam Sims in previous camps really stood out, had some wow moments.  I'd like to see more from AGG then I've personally seen or that's been reported.

 

Gandy Golden's gift IMO is high pointing the ball, in that context he IMO is better than Milne although Milne is good too.  AGG is tall and can jump and go get the ball ala a Plexico Burress.  He's a great red zone target in theory.    But I am not sure what other tricks he has in the bag?

 

As for why I'd take Milne over AGG:

 

Milne > AGG as for making acrobatic lateral type catches.    I am not talking about going up but stretching laterally.  

 

Milne > AGG as for hands.  Milne doesn't seem to drop anything.  AGG had really good hands his last season in college, but he had inconsistent hands before that and last season supposedly had inconsistent hands in practice and ditto in his limited snaps in the NFL. 

 

Milne also is a really good run blocker and as you mentioned special teams player.  

 

I got to rewatch AGG to refresh my memory about him.  But I recall that off season like the previous one i watched a ton of college WRs(as I know you do, too) and there was some stiffness about AGG that I thought he got away with his inferior college competition that I thought could hold him back in the NFL.   He also wasn't quite as tough as someone like Harmon with the ball in his hands although he had some moments.  It's not that he lacked toughness but he struck nothing special on that front aside from high pointing the ball and coming up with the ball at the end. 

 

He seemed to be a bit of a clunky route runner who didn't break quickly to my eyes and relied on his superior physicality (against inferior college competiton) to get behind receivers or outjump them.  I recall i wasn't so blown away by his skills that it made me think he'd get away with that style in the NFL.

 

Doctson to me is a good comp to AGG.  I am not saying that because of Doctson failing but Doctson's niche in college was high pointing the ball.  You'd throw it up and like Dez Bryant in his prime, he'd end up with the ball at the end.  Doctson could really high point with the best of them in college.  But unlike, Dez, Doctson wasn't that physical in the NFL.   And Doctson wasn't the best route runner and wasn't good with releases.  i am not saying AGG will suffer from the same fate but I could see a narrative like that play out with him -- it doesn't strike me far fetched.

 

Having said that, one key for me with any of these young players is intangibles.  As for AGG, I don't know.  We hear it about Terry and Reyes and L. Thomas and a bunch of the players on the team working like mad.  I stayed some after practice and watched especially WRs and saw some of the dudes putting in extra time, I didn't see AGG in that mix but maybe i missed him. 

 

I do think Scott Turner wanting AGG before that draft should help him make the roster.   As for me, I don't really know if AGG succeeds.  I am not down on him or high on him.  He represents for me a rare I am on the fence about player.  If you had to pin me down now, I'd say decent backup but not a starter in the NFL.  But his story clearly has yet to unfold so will see. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.washingtonfootball.com/news/inside-the-curious-mind-rookie-antonio-gandy-golden

Specifically, he cut down on the number of drops. When Freeze was hired heading into Gandy-Golden's senior season, one of their first conversations centered around cleaning up that flaw. Freeze was blunt: Gandy-Golden wasn't going to be drafted very high or help the Flames very much if he continued to drop the ball.

"His response -- I was very intrigued with what it was -- was 'Coach, show me, help me,'" Freeze said.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Holy crap, has your handle always been Borgold, or did you change it to that from Burgold? 

 

Is this another Berenstain Bears situation where I have had a false memory in my head for years?

If memory serves, i think it was either jumbo or TK that changed it cause he broke a rule or something. Happened at some point this summer 😂

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Yeah, I'm guessing Cam Sims is making the roster. When you're called to play and you play well enough--coupled with really good special teams play--that's hard to just drop from the team.

[MariusVT]

11 hours ago, skinsfan93 said:

I don’t know how you can say this? The guy had no preseason last year as a rookie, played with Haskins and a limping qb in Smith and is taller and faster than Harmon. You don’t give up on a young receiver drafted in the 4th round at least for a couple years. 
 

I said it last week that Carter could be the 6th or 7th receiver but if Dax can show more progress as a slot guy and in his return game I think he takes that last spot and is active on game days. 

Personally I think if it's even close, you go with Milne over Carter.  Carter's been in the league 4 years and has a grand total of 34 catches for 386 yards, he's a known quantity and it's not great.  Go with growth potential and marginally better size IMO.

[mistertim]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I assume he's talking about Steven Sims. I think it's incredibly unlikely that he takes the spot Humphries has. Humphries is a much more proven slot receiver and has a good rapport with Fitz.

 

As far as AGG, I was intrigued when watching his college cutups, but I also noticed that he didn't run very sharp routes and seemed to get by mostly on his natural talent vs inferior competition. None of that is surprising coming from a small school, but even with that the leash is only going to be so long. Eventually the guy has to flash or someone else will step up.

 

It's always fun to watch a guy like that who has the big catch radius and body control to get those high point balls and Moss people, but that alone isn't enough to make in the NFL nowadays.

 

I'd probably take Milne over AGG at this point. He's younger but already seems to be a more precise route runner, has excellent hands and can return kicks. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by mistertim

[skinny21]

30 minutes ago, MariusVT said:

Personally I think if it's even close, you go with Milne over Carter.  Carter's been in the league 4 years and has a grand total of 34 catches for 386 yards, he's a known quantity and it's not great.  Go with growth potential and marginally better size IMO.

Not to mention a cheap, 4 year contract, and a player you can groom w/in your (WFT’s) culture.

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I assume he's talking about Steven Sims. I think it's incredibly unlikely that he takes the spot Humphries has. Humphries is a much more proven slot receiver and has a good rapport with Fitz.

 

As far as AGG, I was intrigued when watching his college cutups, but I also noticed that he didn't run very sharp routes and seemed to get by mostly on his natural talent vs inferior competition. None of that is surprising coming from a small school, but even with that the leash is only going to be so long. Eventually the guy has to flash or someone else will step up.

 

It's always fun to watch a guy like that who had the big catch radius and body control to get those high point balls and Moss people, but that alone isn't enough to make in the NFL now.

 

I'd probably take Milne over AGG at this point. He's younger but already seems to be a more precise route runner, has excellent hands and can return kicks. 

I’m guessing he meant take Humphries spot next year?  Right there with you on all the rest.  I don’t really care who makes it, I just hope it doesn’t become a situation where Turner pushes for AGG because he wanted to draft him (if that’s even the case), as opposed to pure merit based.  Theoretically though, that spot should be Kotwica’s(sp?) decision.

7 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

I think Milne has a better chance. There’s really nothing special about him. I’d worry mostly about Jets snatching him to pair with his college QB

Well, he’s a better route runner than AGG it seems, probably has better hands, faced tougher competition in college (I believe), and has drawn praise from Rivera - see his ‘ahead of most young guys’ or whatever comment.  I don’t see why another team would go for AGG other than his height really (I could be way off base though).  Totally agree about the Jets comment.