Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Berggy9598]

1 hour ago, ODU AGGIE said:

ob·tuse

/əbˈt(y)o͞os,äbˈt(y)o͞os/

annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

1. "he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"

    

   Similar: stupid dull slow-witted slow dull-witted unintelligent witless

    

Is there a definition for condescending putz? Had he played for your school you wouldn’t be in here talking down to people who’ve forgotten more football than you’ll ever know 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Berggy9598

[mistertim]

14 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Realizing it’s unfair to him, if TH beats Dallas this week (obviously he’d need to get a lot of help from his supporting cast), I’d change my tune on him.  Right now I see him as a viable, mid-tier starter that I still want to try to find an upgrade for.  If he gets this win, I’m going to start believing there isn’t anyone he can’t beat and we need to add pieces to the team and give him a chance to be the guy.

 

I can see that, but for me it would depend on how it happens. If we win with a successful rushing attack, super stingy defense, and solid play from TH (basically like the last 4 games) then I doubt my opinion would change much. But if Dallas jumps to an early lead and/or our running game isn't working as well as we'd like, and we have to basically rely on TH's arm to propel us to victory then that would probably move the needle for me.

 

Top QBs are the ones who can do that. Other things aren't working so the team has to basically say "ok, we have to rely on your arm to get us a win." and it happens. I haven't ever really seen TH be that guy yet.

 

5 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

If you or the other guy were saying some people make it hard to come onto this thread, I'd at least understand that sentiment...but rooting for the player? All that requires is that he's on the team and he's not a complete douchebag lol. If we're winning and the player is playing well and contributing significantly to the wins, none of y'all mfers ever enter into the equation lol...

 

 

 

I think TH is a good player and seems like a really good dude, so I like him. But I can understand the theory of the sentiment. It was like the Cult of Colt. The people were just so over the top. Like when someone you know is trying to get you to like something they do (could be anything, not just football related) and they're annoying and overbearing about it and so that almost gives you a negative predisposition in your head about whatever they're pushing on you, regardless of whether you actually end up liking it or not.

Edited December 10, 2021 by mistertim

[goskins10]

19 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I can see that, but for me it would depend on how it happens. If we win with a successful rushing attack, super stingy defense, and solid play from TH (basically like the last 4 games) then I doubt my opinion would change much. But if Dallas jumps to an early lead and/or our running game isn't working as well as we'd like, and we have to basically rely on TH's arm to propel us to victory then that would would probably move the needle for me.

 

Top QBs are the ones who can do that. Other things aren't working so the team has to basically say "ok, we have to rely on your arm to get us a win." and it happens. I haven't ever really seen TH be that guy yet.

 

I agree here completely. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

 

I think TH is a good player and seems like a really good dude, so I like him. But I can understand the theory of the sentiment. It was like the Cult of Colt. The people were just so over the top. Like when someone you know is trying to get you to like something they do (could be anything, not just football related) and they're annoying and overbearing about it and so that almost gives you a negative predisposition in your head about whatever they're pushing on you, regardless of whether you actually end up liking it or not.

 

I think you are both saying the same thing just a different way. The over the top adoration can get to be nauseating at times. It gets to the point where you cannot have an honest conversation about a player. I generally just take a time out from the thread. The same when it's gets horribly negative. That is just as nauseating. And just as those over the moon about a player fans disappear or greatly reduce thier presence when it's not going well, those super cynics (and we have them), do the same disappearing act when the player they have a problem with is doing well. This happens with many players, but especially the QB in Washington 🙂  

 

Speaking just for myself at this point - I root for team first and player second. In other words my favorite team is Washington and my favorite players are the ones playing for Washington (unless they are douchebags - see Jeff George and Fat Albert - there are others but you get the point). I realize others are player first team second. And that is totally OK. But it does lead to some of these bi-polar threads. 

 

I just do not think this coming game can be won by Taylor alone. They have to control the line of scrimmage on both sides - run the ball successfully and stop them from running. There is no way we win a shoot-out. Having said that, like you said above, if we get behind and Taylor slings us back from the dead then he could rise a level, maybe a few.. 🙂  As for rooting for him, I always root for whoever can help us win. And Taylor is very easy to root for anyway. 

 

To @Berggy9598 and @ODU AGGIE Just a friendly suggestion from another poster - may want to tone down the personal characterizations. Risk getting a "High There" for all the wrong reasons. 

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

I just do not think this coming game can be won by Taylor alone. They have to control the line of scrimmage on both sides - run the ball successfully and stop them from running. There is no way we win a shoot-out. Having said that, like you said above, if we get behind and Taylor slings us back from the dead then he could rise a level, maybe a few.. 🙂  As for rooting for him, I always root for whoever can help us win. And Taylor is very easy to root for anyway. 

 

I kinda agree with this, but I do want the ball in his hands more on third downs. I think his ability to make plays on what appears to be a broken play will be really helpful to us. I can picture him avoiding the rush, staying behind the line and hitting somebody like Bates or Carter for a short save type play that goes to the house (nobody to make the tackle because they went all in for the blitz). I can also see Gibson with a home run play early just off us being physical. The thing is that he hasn't been a home run hitter for us. 

 

One thing (and I kinda led to this in the post above) is that I don't want Heinicke too dependent on one guy. There will be holes in their coverage but I hope he's patient enough to find it and then can deliver a catchable ball. I look for TMac to get his, but also for guys like Bates, Carter, Humphres, maybe Sims and RSJ if he plays will be extremely important as they put all their resources into covering TMac, Samuel and and JDM. 

[goskins10]

10 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I kinda agree with this, but I do want the ball in his hands more on third downs. I think his ability to make plays on what appears to be a broken play will be really helpful to us. I can picture him avoiding the rush, staying behind the line and hitting somebody like Bates or Carter for a short save type play that goes to the house (nobody to make the tackle because they went all in for the blitz). I can also see Gibson with a home run play early just off us being physical. The thing is that he hasn't been a home run hitter for us. 

 

One thing (and I kinda led to this in the post above) is that I don't want Heinicke too dependent on one guy. There will be holes in their coverage but I hope he's patient enough to find it and then can deliver a catchable ball. I look for TMac to get his, but also for guys like Bates, Carter, Humphres, maybe Sims and RSJ if he plays will be extremely important as they put all their resources into covering TMac, Samuel and and JDM. 

 

Yea, we have all had 3r and short conversations. I was Ok earlier when we seemed intent on running on 3rd and short no matter how many times we had a chance. But I agree it's time to start calling some PA for those plays and give Taylor a chance to create. But jsut remember we wanted this if he throws a bad pick 🙂  

 

I hate the cowboys so much - we have to beat those ****ers. I realize how random that is but I would argue it's relevant! HTTWFT! 

[skinny21]

30 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I can see that, but for me it would depend on how it happens. If we win with a successful rushing attack, super stingy defense, and solid play from TH (basically like the last 4 games) then I doubt my opinion would change much. But if Dallas jumps to an early lead and/or our running game isn't working as well as we'd like, and we have to basically rely on TH's arm to propel us to victory then that would would probably move the needle for me.

 

Top QBs are the ones who can do that. Other things aren't working so the team has to basically say "ok, we have to rely on your arm to get us a win." and it happens. I haven't ever really seen TH be that guy yet.

 

 

I think TH is a good player and seems like a really good dude, so I like him. But I can understand the theory of the sentiment. It was like the Cult of Colt. The people were just so over the top. Like when someone you know is trying to get you to like something they do (could be anything, not just football related) and they're annoying and overbearing about it and so that almost gives you a negative predisposition in your head about whatever they're pushing on you, regardless of whether you actually end up liking it or not.

Understandable position in terms of looking at the ‘how’.  I can see why you’d want to see TH really dominate (maybe that’s slightly too strong a word, but roughly speaking) before changing your perspective.

For me though, if it’s a win with the same complementary football, including TH playing the same ‘steady’ way… that will show me we can hang with pretty much anyone.  5 game win streak, 3 ‘solid’ wins and 2 shocking wins (IMO).  That would be impressive.  Especially considering it would be in the face of lots of injuries and tough breaks via scheduling.  It would suggest this play style is, perhaps, (almost inexplicably) sustainable.  So add a 1st round talent to the supporting cast (along with other picks and FA), re-sign/extend our guys and see how far we can ride this over the next couple/few years*.  

 

Back to your point, there’s a part of me that hopes if we get knocked out of the playoffs (prior to the end of the regular season), Turner ‘unleashes’ Heinicke - going back to the pass heavy football from the first half of the season - to see if he’s grown in that area.  I could see the issue being forced in the 2 games vs the Cowboys, we’ll see.  

 

*I’m not saying avoid adding a qb over that time period, just that spending a 1st on a qb, in the scenario I outlined above, doesn’t seem like the best allocation of resources.  My best guess though is that we win 2 of the next 5 games, just miss out on the playoffs, and then are fairly aggressive in trying to land a qb in the 1st.  As much as I’ve talked about Heinicke and love the dude, I really want to swing for the fences at qb with him as the stopgap (and possibly long term backup).  I badly want our version of Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Mahomes, etc.

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Yea, we have all had 3r and short conversations. I was Ok earlier when we seemed intent on running on 3rd and short no matter how many times we had a chance. But I agree it's time to start calling some PA for those plays and give Taylor a chance to create. But jsut remember we wanted this if he throws a bad pick 🙂  

 

I hate the cowboys so much - we have to beat those ****ers. I realize how random that is but I would argue it's relevant! HTTWFT! 

I agree but even on third and short, I want to see more read option (and we did see some in the Sea game) with him actually keeping it sometimes. Our philosophy is so hard nose bully ball that we seem to be anti deception. I get it but they should try some play action or read option fakes just to get the big play out of it. 

[rumplestilskin]

You know his needle is pointing up when many announcers are not calling him Tyler anymore.👍

[Thinking Skins]

One thing I was thinking about with Heinicke, haven't most of his high balls been to TMac and Thomas? Now that's not saying much because those two (along with JDM) are his go to guys, but as he has gotten more guys involved has he been throwing bad balls to the second tier of guys (Gibson, Miline, Sims, Samuel, Brown, Humphres, RSJ, Bates, Carter)? It seems like these are guys whose hands are not as sure thing so he'd be more focused on getting them balls that are more catchable? Am i misremembering this?

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, rumplestilskin said:

You know his needle is pointing up when many announcers are not calling him Tyler anymore.👍

 

I clearly missed something. Honest question - why are all these people calling him Tyler? I heard that stupid ****ing Skip calling him that so I assumed it was a dig. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

If you or the other guy were saying some people make it hard to come onto this thread, I'd at least understand that sentiment...but rooting for the player? All that requires is that he's on the team and he's not a complete douchebag lol. If we're winning and the player is playing well and contributing significantly to the wins, none of y'all mfers ever enter into the equation lol...

 

 

I can’t speak for the poster but that’s kind of what I took from his post.  Probably because I can’t grasp anyone not rooting for him.

[PartyPosse]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I can’t speak for the poster but that’s kind of what I took from his post.  Probably because I can’t grasp anyone not rooting for him.

I’m always going to root for players on the team, but the amount of smug “you guys aren’t as football savvy as I because I knew” humblebrags do indeed make it difficult to come here. Mind you, it is a thread specifically about him so I suppose that’s on me to expect level-headed assessments and not desperate attempts for back pats.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

11 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I’m always going to root for players on the team, but the amount of smug “you guys aren’t as football savvy as I because I knew” humblebrags do indeed make it difficult to come here. Mind you, it is a thread specifically about him so I suppose that’s on me to expect level-headed assessments and not desperate attempts for back pats.

 

Are you saying that almost no level-headed assessments have been taking place on this thread?

[PartyPosse]

7 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Are you saying that almost no level-headed assessments have been taking place on this thread?

No. Im saying to always expect level-headed assessments is foolish on my part.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

No. Im saying to always expect level-headed assessments is foolish on my part.

 

Can level-headed assessments and back pats take place at the same time on a thread about Heinicke?

 

Or would it be more accurate in your eyes to rephrase your earlier post as "I suppose that’s on me to expect level-headed assessments and not desperate attempts for back pats from some fans" instead of chalking it up to the entire thread?

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, Califan007 said:

 

Can level-headed assessments and back pats take place at the same time on a thread about Heinicke?

 

Or would it be more accurate in your eyes to rephrase your earlier post as "I suppose that’s on me to expect level-headed assessments and not desperate attempts for back pats from some fans" instead of chalking it up to the entire thread?

You’re arguing for the sake of arguing because you know what I mean. Is it possible? Sure. Is that what happens here? Or all the other fanatic threads about player crushes. Very rarely. They tend to be more “us vs them” oriented and as someone had mentioned, those posters tend to disappear when the narrative no longer fits their perception (and then reappear when it does).

 

Also, as to your second point, please read the first sentence of my previous paragraph, but if it’s that important that I need to dumb it down so as to not offend anyone then sure, I’ll rephrase it however you want me to.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

You’re arguing for the sake of arguing because you know what I mean. Is it possible? Sure. Is that what happens here? Or all the other fanatic threads about player crushes. Very rarely. They tend to be more “us vs them” oriented and as someone had mentioned, those posters tend to disappear when the narrative no longer fits their perception (and then reappear when it does).

 

Also, as to your second point, please read the first sentence of my previous paragraph, but if it’s that important that I need to dumb it down so as to not offend anyone then sure, I’ll rephrase it however you want me to.

 

I know what you said.

 

I don't read this thread every day, but I know you had an issue with ODU-whatever. So wanted to find out if this was just a backhanded way of insulting him or if you had an issue with most of the discussion/debate on this thread. Because if it's the former, just say it. Don't bother claiming that you should have known a "thread about Heinicke" would be devoid of level-headed discussion. Because if you meant it about the thread itself, it comes across more as you only feel one side is being level-headed. I wanted to know which stance you were taking.

[zCommander]

12 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

No. Im saying to always expect level-headed assessments is foolish on my part.

 

There is no such thing as level-headed assessment. It is like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you see is always going to be different than how someone else sees it. That doesn't mean they are wrong and you are right and vise versa. 

 

You are always going to have people who are hyped about a certain player and that is okay. You can still have a banter with them but don't expect them to come down to your level and vise versa. They are there for a reason and they like to stay on that level and it is okay. 

 

 

[TChaler70]

6 hours ago, Berggy9598 said:

Is there a definition for condescending putz? Had he played for your school you wouldn’t be in here talking down to people who’ve forgotten more football than you’ll ever know 

All I am seeing are people coming up with unrealistic expectations and ridiculous in game tests for TH, I mean the guy even has to win a certain way for some of your experts. You dont even have to know anything about football as I do not to know this is an absurd way to evaluate anybody. That isnt fair.

 

Most the posters with these strong expectations etc and now are the so called experts, didnt even know who TH was last year at this time but apparently some posters saw him for 4 years up close....just saying. 

 

Have fun and enjoy the ride and for god sake dont let some poster effect how you feel about the guy, that is completely irrational unless you have some ax to grind with him and to be honest after looking through some of the posters other posts in other sections there maybe some of that, really a shame considering WFT has been such a complete mess and now has this great story.

[Berggy9598]

6 minutes ago, TChaler70 said:

All I am seeing are people coming up with unrealistic expectations and ridiculous in game tests for TH, I mean the guy even has to win a certain way for some of your experts. You dont even have to know anything about football as I do not to know this is an absurd way to evaluate anybody. That isnt fair.

 

Most the posters with these strong expectations etc and now are the so called experts, didnt even know who TH was last year at this time but apparently some posters saw him for 4 years up close....just saying. 

 

Have fun and enjoy the ride and for god sake dont let some poster effect how you feel about the guy, that is completely irrational unless you have some ax to grind with him and to be honest after looking through some of the posters other posts in other sections there maybe some of that, really a shame considering WFT has been such a complete mess and now has this great story.

Read my posts about him if you want I never set unrealistic expectations for him.

[PartyPosse]

2 hours ago, zskins said:

 

There is no such thing as level-headed assessment. It is like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you see is always going to be different than how someone else sees it. That doesn't mean they are wrong and you are right and vise versa. 

 

You are always going to have people who are hyped about a certain player and that is okay. You can still have a banter with them but don't expect them to come down to your level and vise versa. They are there for a reason and they like to stay on that level and it is okay. 

 

 

I dunno. I think you can have level-headed assessments. That doesn’t mean they can’t be skewered towards a certain standpoint.

[rumplestilskin]

6 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

I clearly missed something. Honest question - why are all these people calling him Tyler? I heard that stupid ****ing Skip calling him that so I assumed it was a dig. 

He is starting to garner respect now (both from opposing players and coaches and legends like Farvre) media people will start getting his name straight. He has his flaws but he is must see TV at this moment.  

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, TChaler70 said:

All I am seeing are people coming up with unrealistic expectations and ridiculous in game tests for TH, I mean the guy even has to win a certain way for some of your experts. You dont even have to know anything about football as I do not to know this is an absurd way to evaluate anybody. That isnt fair.

 

Most the posters with these strong expectations etc and now are the so called experts, didnt even know who TH was last year at this time but apparently some posters saw him for 4 years up close....just saying. 

 

Have fun and enjoy the ride and for god sake dont let some poster effect how you feel about the guy, that is completely irrational unless you have some ax to grind with him and to be honest after looking through some of the posters other posts in other sections there maybe some of that, really a shame considering WFT has been such a complete mess and now has this great story.

 

People have talked about how TH would basically "level up" in their eyes. For me to think he's gone from a 15-20 type QB to a potential top 10 type QB I'd need to see him truly take over games with his arm and shred defenses. That's the kind of thing you see top QBs do...certainly not all the time, but at least on occassion.

 

Heinicke hasn't shown himself to be that guy at this point. So far we've been on a winning streak with a combination of a vastly improved defense, running the ball effectively, and having Heinicke play efficient football.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that. But to bump him up to the next echelon I'd want to see that he can actually be a guy who teams truly fear when the ball is in his hands. I'm a bit dubious about whether he has the arm talent to actually be that guy, but I'd certainly like it if it happened.

 

So it's not so much "expectations" as it is explaining what I'd need to see in order for TH to move up to the next level in my view. I don't expect him to go out and throw for 400 yards and 4 TDs on Sunday, but if he did it would certainly impact how I view his potential.

Edited December 11, 2021 by mistertim

[Stefanskins]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

truly take over games with his arm and shred defenses

Aye, there’s the rub Tim…I think that that’s where the disconnect is…what do you mean by arm?…we both know he’s never gonna have a Marino arm…so could taking over a game with his arm mean completing 70% of his passes, 9 td to 2 int ratio, leading 4th qtr comebacks, throwing different types of passes depending on what the defense gives you (he’s had some nice side arm passes that were on point) or is taking over a game with his arm more velocity to you? Honest question…HTTR!!!

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, Stefanskins said:

Aye, there’s the rub Tim…I think that that’s where the disconnect is…what do you mean by arm?…we both know he’s never gonna have a Marino arm…so could taking over a game with his arm mean completing 70% of his passes, 9 td to 2 int ratio, leading 4th qtr comebacks, throwing different types of passes depending on what the defense gives you (he’s had some nice side arm passes that were on point) or is taking over a game with his arm more velocity to you? Honest question…HTTR!!!

 

Taking over a game with an arm doesn't just mean arm strength but that could be part of it, as that usually requires the ability to hit pretty much any route at any level at any time. At the moment TH is more of a game manager. Which, again, is ok. But I don't think anyone is especially scared of our passing game.

 

To me if the run game isn't working, and you know it, and the opposing defense knows it, and you basically have to rely on your QB to get you a win is what I mean. Or if your defense is terrible, you get behind, and you have to make up for it by airing it out (since running and ball control won't help you), and it still works. Basically if a defense knows you're going to pass a lot and it doesn't matter because your QB is great.

 

Sure, you can throw out a completion percentage or whatever, but I don't think most people here would claim that Heinicke is a guy who has done that sort of thing or who has proven that he can go out and single-handedly shred a defense ala the top QBs in the league. Big plays, plrenty of air yards, plenty of TDs. We don't have that and haven't really seen it. Currently we're winning with defense, a good running game, and good game management quarterbacking from Heinicke. Mostly shorter and intermediate stuff inside the numbers. And that's fine, because it's working, and his OC is mostly playing to his strengths.

 

But what happens when it stops working and we have to tell TH to go out and win the game with his arm? That's what I'm curious about, and something we've not really seen. For me personally to move his up in my head to the next echelon I'd need to see a couple of performances like that.