Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

So Heinicke is in the Friend Zone, is that what I'm getting? lol...

He's close to being a friend with benefits though.  

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

So Heinicke is in the Friend Zone, is that what I'm getting? lol...

 

For me I am dating, could be marriage but not yet, it could be one of those sceanrios where everyone is on their best behavior now but lets see what happens when we let our personalities go a bit more unhinged and test each other. 😀

Edited October 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't think we know whether he's just a backup or a bonafide stater, yet.  You are mentioning backups coming in and failing.  I mentioned a bunch who have succeeded for a spell.  I think this needs to play out.  

 

I don't think he's a backup.  I also am not convinced he's a bonafide starter just yet.  At this point, his floor, IMO, is a starter on a bad team.  

 

As for Minshew, he apparently lied about an injury, which is why he fell out of favor with the Jags in 2020.  Minshew, IMO, is in the "starter on a bad team" territory.  In fact, I wanted Washington to trade for him in the offseason.  

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I don't think he's a backup.  I also am not convinced he's a bonafide starter just yet.  At this point, his floor, IMO, is a starter on a bad team.  

 

As for Minshew, he apparently lied about an injury, which is why he fell out of favor with the Jags in 2020.  Minshew, IMO, is in the "starter on a bad team" territory.  In fact, I wanted Washington to trade for him in the offseason.  

 

I like Minshew as a high end backup.  Last year 0-5, and in every game but one he had QBR ratings in the 20s or 30s. Good TD-INT ratio though.   Listening to Jay talk about Minshew in a podcast not long ago, it wasn't hard to tell he wasn't impressed with Minshew's tools.   If Minshew was the answer, I'd figure a team would give up more than a 6th for him.  Heck, that's less than what we paid for Kyle Allen.

 

As for Heinicke, I only got one hard opinion about him.  that is, he is a TBD player.  the sample needs to run.  I like what i've seen but I've liked others too in short samples who ended up failing, so want that movie to at least get to the 2nd half before I predict the ending.  But I like how its going. 

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/jaguars/news/minshew-mania-heads-to-philly-5-observations-on-the-gardner-minshew-trade

The fact that Minshew will likely be the Eagles' No. 3 quarterback to start the season says a lot about the kind of market he had. He is an experienced starter and a good backup, but he has a limited physical ceiling and struggled heavily through the Jaguars' first two preseason games. Jacksonville likely can't be thrilled with a sixth for Minshew, but it is hard to believe they expected much more.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Morneblade]

 

[88Comrade2000]

You need Taylor to start for 2 seasons before you can completely judge him. If he has a good year, give him a one year extension to 23 and more money for the remaining 2 years. Then, you need see him do it again next year; before you give him a long term deal.

 

The nfl is littered with qbs who have looked good for a few games but when given the long term gig; they flopped. Same thing with one year wonders.

 

Way to early to make final assessments.

 

Early assessments are mostly good though. He seems like a spot starter and solid backup. Will find out over the season; whether the potential to be more.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[ThomasRoane]

11 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Yes you can still succeed in the NFL by going short. But having the threat of a big arm can be a major bonus. If a defense knows a QB doesn't have the arm to make certain throws, they'll be able to add that to their game plan and/or try and force him to make throws he would struggle with.

 

So with Brady, a defense may know he tends to go short, but they also know he absolutely has the arm to make them pay on longer stuff if that's what they leave open. The ability to make big throws with ease is something defenses have to respect when playing and game planning.

 

I believe that TH will continue to improve his knowledge of NFL defenses and how Turner is looking to attack defensive schemes.  We all know TH is smart.  I believe @KDawg would agree though that there is no substitute for game reps.  In that respect, TH is still a baby-faced rookie.  He can overcome a lot of physical deficiencies with gameday experience.  I believe he's already ahead of Carr's timeline.  Dunno if anyone caught the pregame but there was a lot of talk about Carr and how he used to check the line to see what was going on rather than keeping eyes downfield.  (This was RG III's downfall as well)  TH already keeps his head up.  He just needs to take the next step to knowing what the Defense is up to so he can deliver the ball on schedule.  That will mitigate some of his arm strength issues.  Also, his feet and foundation will get more steady as he grows more comfortable throwing from the pocket.  

 

The coaching staff and FO can really help TH with a strong running game.  Arm strength isn't no where near as important when you run play action.  Without a good running game though, you can't be effective with play action.  I know this is wishful thinking, but I can't stop wondering what the team could be if they could keep TH on a discount (knowing other staffs may like him but not love him).  Then spread that $ around on above average OLine and playmakers.  

[Morneblade]

5 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

You need Taylor to start for 2 seasons before you can completely judge him. If he has a good year, give him a one year extension to 23 and more money for the remaining 2 years. Then, you need see him do it again next year; before you give him a long term deal.

 

The nfl is littered with qbs who have looked good for a few games but when given the long term gig; they flopped. Same thing with one year wonders.

 

Way to early to make final assessments.

 

Early assessments are mostly good though. He seems like a spot starter and solid backup. Will find out over the season; whether the potential to be more.

 

 

Agreed with most of these points. Floor looks to be really good back up. Ceiling is quality starter, but not elite.

 

Arm is below NFL average. Intangibles are above NFL average, maybe even elite. Poor mans Russell Wilson.

[ThomasRoane]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

In terms of arm strength, I will say that I’d like to see his receivers help him out a bit.  I mean, they had been to an extent in terms of making some nice (or even spectacular) catches, but I’m talking about a concerted effort to come back for the ball rather than wait on it.  Against Atlanta, Terry’s out route to the right sideline that the db undercut and almost picked is a good example.  If Terry bends the route slightly back toward the LOS once the ball is in the air, it’s either a catch or incomplete, with no real chance of a pick.  Versus the Giants, the almost pick by Bradberry on a comeback route by Terry - same thing.  To be clear, Terry in both cases is (I think) doing just what he should, but knowing Heinicke’s arm limitation, I think the receivers should be thinking of adjusting to those types of throws.  It’s a small thing (and probably somewhat difficult for the receiver adjust to), but it could potentially mean 1-2 more completions or less interceptable balls (or interceptions) per game, which would be huge IMO.

 

Or maybe I’m crazy for thinking this way, lol

 

Not crazy at all.  One of our most effective coaching points to our receivers was for them to "get friendly" with the QB.  Give the QB a good target away from the defender.  I always wanted my receivers to be like good, active basketball players.  Don't stand there clapping your hands for a pass.  A defender can easily get in the lane and intercept.  Keep moving at all times.  Make sure your QB has a good, clear lane to your jersey number.  This isn't just a TH issue.  Look at the very best receivers.  Like Hopkins.  They attack the ball!  

[ODU AGGIE]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Absolutely true. Also, you have to remember that he basically played only one half in the Chargers game where he passed for 122 yards. Give him another 150 there for a reasonable 272 yards, and he moves up to 11th from 21st on the Passing Yards per Game stat. Given that, he can easily be considered a top ten QB at this point. Cheers, all!

Edited October 5, 2021 by ODU AGGIE

[Califan007 The Constipated]

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

7th in TD percentage as well...

[Morneblade]

27 minutes ago, ODU AGGIE said:

Absolutely true. Also, you have to remember that he basically played only one half in the Chargers game where he passed for 122 yards. Give him another 150 there for a reasonable 272 yards, and he moves up to 11th from 21st on the Passing Yards per Game stat. Given that, he can easily be considered a top ten QB at this point. Cheers, all!

 

7 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

7th in TD percentage as well...

 

So, what you guys are saying is that after years of not really being able to move the ball in the air, and years, even decades of having things bog down in the Red Zone, TH is effective?

[gbear]

All this talk of arm strength and needing a QB with a gun makes me feel old.  Once upon a time, the franchise formerly known as the Redskins had a QB who won games for them.  Mr. Johnson was smart, a team leader usually doing enough to win games. Heck, he even took them to the second round of the playoffs for the first time in years while having a pro-bowl season.  He was known for throwing the ball on time and accurately to spots he knew would be open.  However, he didn't have a gun for an arm. 

 

So the team brought in a QB with a gun for an arm, probably the strongest arm in the NFL at the time.  Alas, Mr. George didn't think leadership was a needed skill for a qb, and he was never that accurate.  He could throw the ball for miles though...  So the team went with George and sent Johnson packing.  The skins crashed and burned, and in 2002, Johnson helped the Buccaneers win the super bowl.

 

That's the Skins story I think about with all this talk about Heinicke not having enough of an arm.  We have seen the effects of looking at arm strength over ability to analyze and manipulate defenses.  The best qb's in the league now all seem to be the ones who are able to exploit the weaknesses they find in defenses.  I bet every QB in the NFL can throw 40 yards and 25 yards fairly accurately.  The question is do they know when to throw where, and can they manipulate the defenses to give those predictable windows into which they can throw in the time they have before they are crushed by a 275lb. DL trying to plant them in the earth?

    

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Not crazy at all.  One of our most effective coaching points to our receivers was for them to "get friendly" with the QB.  Give the QB a good target away from the defender.  I always wanted my receivers to be like good, active basketball players.  Don't stand there clapping your hands for a pass.  A defender can easily get in the lane and intercept.  Keep moving at all times.  Make sure your QB has a good, clear lane to your jersey number.  This isn't just a TH issue.  Look at the very best receivers.  Like Hopkins.  They attack the ball!  

 

This isn't me disagreeing with you, it's just asking for clarification since I'm sure you know more about it than I do.

 

My understanding was that out routes were very much timing based. The receiver makes a break and the QB lets it fly at a certain time so they can be in sync and get the ball to the spot before the DB can recover (and if not, bad things like pick sixes can happen).

 

I believe the passes on Sunday that were almost INTs were mostly out routes. If that's the case, wouldn't telling a WR to try and work back towards the QB sort of defeat the purpose of an out route in general, or no?

Edited October 5, 2021 by mistertim

[skinny21]

The following is not at all me attempting to shrug off arm limitations, but rather just something I’ve been thinking about recently.

 

How do you prioritize the following attributes for a qb (I’m sure there are more)?  Some could perhaps be consolidated or split up.  Some are coachable, others are innate.  Which are crucial, and which (if any) can you get by without (or at least get by with it as a weakness)?

Arm strength

Work ethic

Pocket presence

Poise

Scrambling ability

Running ability

Accuracy

Throwing with anticipation

Ability to read defenses (pre and post snap)

Ability to call protections

Short memory

Coachability

Leadership

Off platform throwing ability

Measurements (height, weight, hand size)

Grit

Moxie

Clutch play (maybe same as moxie?)

Situational awareness

Loves dogs (just seeing if you’re still reading)

Durability

Release

Trusts receivers

Gunslinger attitude

Willingness to check down

Keeping eyes downfield when scrambling

Not staring down receivers

 

[skinny21]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

This isn't me disagreeing with you, it's just asking for clarification since I'm sure you know more about it than I do.

 

My understanding was that out routes were very much timing based. The receiver makes a break and the QB lets it fly at a certain time so they can be in sync and get the ball to the spot before the DB can recover (and if not, bad things like pick sixes can happen).

 

I believe the passes on Sunday that were almost INTs were mostly out routes. If that's the case, wouldn't telling a WR to try and work back towards the QB sort of defeat the purpose of an out route in general, or no?

TR explained it better than my original post did -  it’s not so much adjusting the route, but rather attacking the ball in the air.  On an out route, it’s stepping toward the ball (and LOS) and using overhand catch (like catching a basketball), vs continuing the flat trajectory parallel to the LOS and catching underhand (like you might catch a medicine ball).  Ball placement, trajectory and force play in of course.

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

He's close to being a friend with benefits though.  

 

I think it's now in bootie call but could be more territory.

 

We were desperate last year and had a one night stand, but it ended up being better than we thought it would be.

 

This year what we thought was our main thing left, and we were lonely and remembered it was a good time so we went back for a bootie call.

 

Now we've had a couple of bootie calls and we're wondering if we should just stick with this one, but really aren't quite sure yet. There are some exciting signs that things could turn out good long term, but there's also some trepidation.

[Morneblade]

10 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

The following is not at all me attempting to shrug off arm limitations, but rather just something I’ve been thinking about recently.

 

How do you prioritize the following attributes for a qb (I’m sure there are more)?  Some could perhaps be consolidated or split up.  Some are coachable, others are innate.  Which are crucial, and which (if any) can you get by without (or at least get by with it as a weakness)?

Arm strength

Work ethic

Pocket presence

Poise

Scrambling ability

Running ability

Accuracy

Throwing with anticipation

Ability to read defenses (pre and post snap)

Ability to call protections

Short memory

Coachability

Leadership

Off platform throwing ability

Measurements (height, weight, hand size)

Grit

Moxie

Clutch play (maybe same as moxie?)

Situational awareness

Loves dogs (just seeing if you’re still reading)

Durability

Release

Trusts receivers

Gunslinger attitude

Willingness to check down

Keeping eyes downfield when scrambling

Not staring down receivers

 

 

2 things you MUST have to be successful.

1. Accuracy

2. Ability to read defenses

 

After that, availability (durability). If you can't play, you don't matter.

 

You have a large list, and I don't want to get into all of it. But suffice it say you can get by with larger or smaller portions of basically everything else to an extent. More is better, less is worse. Certain combos might be bad such as gunslinger/weak arm. Or stares down receivers/slow release. But you can also overcome with say throwing with anticipation (1st example) or rocket arm (2nd example).

[wit33]

5 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There is more to it than throwing it deep, it’s fitting in spots, tight windows. 
 

I brought up Case Keenum earlier for a reason. It’s the closest comp for Heineke I’ve got.  Sure they aren’t carbon copies of one another.  They both lack arm strength but are/were shifty in the pocket and can escape, so it helps to alleviate some of that.  

Arm talent Keenum is a good comp. lower Legs and spatial awareness I put right with a younger Russel Wilson. 
 

What does the mean or equal? Who knows. I know QBs in the past would’ve lost games against the Giants and Falcons and the defense would’ve been blamed.

 

My theory of the last 5 years is you need a QB who can get you to 30 points in competitive games. No more blaming the defense for a loss in these situations. It’s the new NFL.  Meaning, there’s more value to a QB getting to 30 points with the game on the line throughout versus a QB getting there in a blowout win. Not an end all be all thing. 

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Earlier in the week, Heinicke had provided a self-scouting report for the quarterback who once won a Georgia state player of the year award at Collins Hill High: “Small, weak-armed, slow,” he said. Relative to NFL quarterbacks, aside from his speed, those adjectives remain accurate. His limitations sometimes surface. In the first half, Heinicke waited too long to recognize an open receiver down the right sideline, and his late floater could have been intercepted.

More often than not, though, Heinicke understands how to suppress his weaknesses with his strengths. He cannot make some throws that average NFL quarterbacks can because of his arm strength. But he is willing to try, and can make, some throws that even great NFL quarterbacks cannot because of his guile and quickness, his moxie and spatial awareness.

“I’ve been doing those plays throughout my life,” Heinicke said. “That’s kind of the player I am.”

 

The first Heinicke Play on Sunday came with four minutes left in the fourth quarter, with Washington trailing 30-22. Heinicke dropped back from the Atlanta 17-yard line. Defensive end Dante Fowler broke free and dived at Heinicke. He wriggled out of Fowler’s grasp, twisted and retreated to the 29. He spotted McLaurin in the back of the end zone and lobbed the ball nearly 40 yards, a wobbly spiral thrown off balance.

 

 

 

“When you have a guy like Terry, you want to give him a shot to make a play,” Heinicke said. “I threw it up to him, let him do his thing.”

Heinicke has a knack for when to take what may seem like an absurd risk. Falcons cornerback Avery Williams had been turned around and lost track of where he and the ball were. McLaurin settled under the pass like a punt returner and caught it for a touchdown.

Washington missed the two-point conversion, and after Atlanta failed to ice the game with a first down, Heinicke received another chance from his team’s 24 with less than two minutes left. He moved Washington to the Atlanta 30, the key a 24-yard pass to DeAndre Carter that Heinicke floated to just the right spot at just the right time.

 

At the 30, offensive coordinator Scott Turner called a pattern that flooded the left side of the field. Heinicke drifted left and saw the Falcons had defended all of his receivers. The second Heinicke Play happened. Few quarterbacks would have had the calm not to sprint forward a few yards and to notice McKissic leaking into open space on the other side of the field. Heinicke rotated his body and flipped a pass to McKissic.

“He’s a courageous dude who plays all out,” Rivera said. “His teammates feed off his energy. They understand no play is dead, so they keep working.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/10/03/taylor-heinicke-washington-football-falcons/

The coaches appear to be jumping on board and Heinekes confidence with the media is growing. Ron has no choice to back his style of play after saving “his” unit and season up to this point. 
 

Do you, Taylor. 

[zCommander]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think it's now in bootie call but could be more territory.

 

We were desperate last year and had a one night stand, but it ended up being better than we thought it would be.

 

This year what we thought was our main thing left, and we were lonely and remembered it was a good time so we went back for a bootie call.

 

Now we've had a couple of bootie calls and we're wondering if we should just stick with this one, but really aren't quite sure yet. There are some exciting signs that things could turn out good long term, but there's also some trepidation.

 

Some people...questioning the quality of a booty call...

Just enjoy the ****ing sex! 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by zskins

[ThomasRoane]

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

This isn't me disagreeing with you, it's just asking for clarification since I'm sure you know more about it than I do.

 

My understanding was that out routes were very much timing based. The receiver makes a break and the QB lets it fly at a certain time so they can be in sync and get the ball to the spot before the DB can recover (and if not, bad things like pick sixes can happen).

 

I believe the passes on Sunday that were almost INTs were mostly out routes. If that's the case, wouldn't telling a WR to try and work back towards the QB sort of defeat the purpose of an out route in general, or no?

 

True and yet there's more to it than just running your route.  A good receiver absolutely must give the DB a good stem.  In other words, make that DB think that the route is going deep or inside.  You use everything you can. Head, lean, feet, etc. to make that DB react and think "oh crap, he's going deep or he's running a skinny post!"  The best receivers will make the DB flip his hips.  It's game over then no matter what.  That takes a lot of work as a receiver. 

 

The goal for my receivers is to make the first 3 yards look the same whether you're running a fade, slant, shallow, speedout, bench, etc.  A db that is forced to guess is a defeated DB.  That's why McLaurin has become so good.  He is in that DB's head.

 

Now, a couple more things about out routes.  You have a speedout that is basically about 5 yards deep.  Gone are the days when you watch a receiver get to his first landmark, shuffle his feet, and then cut.  DB's have become too quick and the really good ones can flip their hips and back again before you can defeat them.  So, on that speedout, you have to really bend that thing inside but at the same time there can be no loss of momentum.  I do drills to make sure that every cleat is in the ground because at that speed receivers have a tendency to slip and fall - see Ryan Grant; the king of falling.  The ball should be coming out as the receiver is coming out of his stem/bend.  Allowing him to run away from the defender.

 

A bench route is pretty much the same concept only it's going to take longer to develop.  The route distance varies.  This is your 3rd and 8+ route.  The receiver must get beyond the sticks; at least a couple yards.  Usually, there is some kind of combo involved here; depending on the coverage.  If it's man, then the primary is lined up inside while a burner like Scary Terry clears out.  The QB can throw the fade if the outside receiver is even.  If it's cover two with a DB covering flat then usually you have a route to hold that DB down.  Like a back or TE on an arrow route (straight angle to outside) or a very shallow speedout, flair, etc.  Then the QB wants to beat that safety with a hole shot up the sideline.  Now, that primary inside receiver must stress the safety and make him think he's running a seam or a post to keep him leveraged inside.  Regardless though, the receiver absolutely, positively MUST get beyond the sticks and then bend that baby to the marker so that either he gets the ball or nobody does.  Making the defender come thru his body (for the DPI) is the key here.  

[CTskin]

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'm not concerned about his guts, clearly he's a baller.  That's not in question.  It's once defenses catch up, a la Minshew, Keenum, <insert other weaker armed QBs here>, they can force the issues.  I do like reading that he's self aware and perhaps that will help him moving forward.  What I think has doomed some other less than strong armed QBs in the past, is they think their arm is stronger than it really is and try to make throws that they cannot make, which lead to interceptions and their eventual downfall.

Really good comps. I think what elevates Taylor is his football IQ. I hate to sound like a broken record with this, but it is the most important trait. The kid has it. Pairing this with athleticism is a recipe for success and negates the lack of arm strength.

 

Flipping the comps around, I see him as a middle classman’s Russell Wilson. Athletic, slippery, great pocket awareness, smart, below avg QB size, but he just doesn’t have the cannon.

[wit33]

Just now, Morneblade said:

 

2 things you MUST have to be successful.

1. Accuracy

2. Ability to read defenses

 

After that, availability (durability). If you can't play, you don't matter.

 

You have a large list, and I don't want to get into all of it. But suffice it say you can get by with larger or smaller portions of basically everything else to an extent. More is better, less is worse. Certain combos might be bad such as gunslinger/weak arm. Or stares down receivers/slow release. But you can also overcome with say throwing with anticipation (1st example) or rocket arm (2nd example).

Ability to read a defense obviously still has great value and is a must, but much less these days with the offenses employed and it nearly being a pre requisite that you be able to extend a play. When I watch Mahomes, Herbert, Allen, Jackson… I don’t see dudes reading the field at a high level, but there physical abilities and schemes help mitigate the need to read a defense. 

[Morneblade]

5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think it's now in bootie call but could be more territory.

 

We were desperate last year and had a one night stand, but it ended up being better than we thought it would be.

 

This year what we thought was our main thing left, and we were lonely and remembered it was a good time so we went back for a bootie call.

 

Now we've had a couple of bootie calls and we're wondering if we should just stick with this one, but really aren't quite sure yet. There are some exciting signs that things could turn out good long term, but there's also some trepidation.

 

This is SO funny, and yet really accurate.

 

Sh*t faced drunk at the bar after getting dumped for the upteenth time, and this chick you could barely tell apparent from the lamp post. Takes you home and kinda rocks your world.

 

Next day, you can finally see just 1 of her, but she doesn't look that bad, but she ain't all that. She hangs out that day and she pretty cool, kicks your ass in Mario Cart and you decide, ok, I'll get her number. She's kinda to to hang out with.

 

Couple months later you're looking at a upgrade, bigger boobs, a little cuter. Solid 7/10, kinda bipolar rep though. Spring and summer go pretty decent, but you see a couple things that raise a flag.

 

Meet the parents for the first time and she freaks out says, "this is going too fast and I need some space."

 

You start hanging out with 1 Night more, and you find she's really cool, down to earth, likes your favorite team AND knows the sport. Loves Metal and can play guitar like a boss.

 

You're like "Damn, she's REALLY awesome, cool as hell too. But she's still just 'eh' to look at." "Still, looks ain't everything, let's see what happens."