Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[BurgundyBooger]

10 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

You're in coo coo land if you'd take Jacoby Brissett over Matt Stafford.

 

Yeah, I must be for wanting a serviceable QB who won't cost us high draft picks, put a big dent on our cap, and doesn't have a coo coo spouse bringing distraction to the team, all to just post pretty numbers and take us nowhere year in and year out. He's had top defenses to help him, a generational and future hall of fame wide receiver to throw to, and an assortment of head coaches to work with him over 12 years, all of which yielded 3 playoff visits, all ending in immediate first round elimination.

 

I suppose we're somehow going to give him something different, that missing piece he hasn't had yet, to succeed. It'll just cost the team a lot to find out. No thanks.

Edited December 22, 2020 by BurgundyBooger

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, SweatSuit said:

I I can even get behind hoping for a loss for example in the Giants game last year which is the difference between being able to draft a Chase Young or not. Especially when the then current regime is about to pack their bags anyway. But I will never agree actively rooting for a loss or sitting watching a game and hoping for a loss with a brand new coaching regime trying to instill a winning culture with the division in reach still just so that we have a shot at a college prospect that could or could not be good. And with our track record of developing the position and the overall impatience of the fan base that seems even sillier. Your position on here is well documented for those paying attention which is you need a QB to do anything in this league and your best shot at one is tops in the draft.

 

 

 I don't always agree with how fans roll with their own fandom but to me its their business what floats their boat on that front.  It's a different subject than whether we agree about moves or specific players/FO people/coaches on the team.   So whether they root for tanking or they don't -- its a subjective personal call IMO without a right or wrong.    I never really actively rooted for losses from what I recall until last season for Chase Young. 

 

And my point weeks ago was an obvious one we need a QB.  And yeah we got a better shot getting one early than later on.  But much more on point I loved the prospect of what this team would look like with Fields or Zach Wilson.  Neither is slam dunk though but I like them distinctly better than the next group.   Not saying I am right about either prospect.  But as for someone who has watched almost all of these college QBs, I had a specific opinion of what I thought of them.   

 

Every draft is different, if this was the 2015 draft to me it would be yawn.  But this specific draft to me, it brought home the value of drafting higher.  It's arguably a deeper draft than usual at QB which is good but you also have potentially more teams in need for the spot.  And again I love the top 3 guys.  So when I delved into the semantics of drafting higher I had specific prospects in my head.  That drove my point much more than the theory of drafting higher.     

  

 

8 hours ago, SweatSuit said:

 

 finishing tops in the draft and securing a Fields or Wilson or whatever outweighs the importance of instilling a brand new culture and teaching a young team filled with talent how to actually win football games. Trust me, after a 1-7 start I began to console myself with draft position too. It’s nice to have hope and excitement in the next new shiny toy coming out of school.

 

I obviously had mixed emotions on that front considering I rooted (included on this thread) for them to beat the Steelers.  I wasn't rooting for them to lose during the season from the jump albiet I was intrigued with one more go of a higher pick.  So again mixed emotions.   But when it looked like it was headed south, at that point, my emotions weren't mixed, then what the heck get a QB especially one I really like.  When I was rooting for loses at the end of last year it wasn't because I thought theoritically we needed a pass rusher and lets get the best dude who falls to our pick.  it was because I loved Chased Young specifically.   Likewise, there were 2 QBs (Lawrence seemed out of reach) who I specifically loved over other guys like Trask, etc.  But I don't hate that next tier of QBs.  We could get lucky.  On the draft thread I continually talk about multiple QBs all the time.  There are some others I like.   But I had a strong hankering for two dudes who IMO had special mobility. 

 

I've been on the record from before the hire of liking Ron Rivera a lot and I've had his back on most debates on the board.   But I have anough faith in the dude that if they had a bad season, and the season was headed that way, he'd bounce back easier if he found his Cam for this team versus joining the club of some of the previous head coaches here who found themselves in QB wilderness.  And no I don't think name that random win that lets say made the team 5-11 versus 4-12 would change the culture. 

 

But yeah if the defense starts playing on fire and you beat good teams -- that's different to me. That's a real culture change at least in my view.  So when it looked like it could turn that way, I rooted for it.  So if anything I'd figure you'd approve?  But bottom line to me is who cares?   Who cares what floats my boat as a fan?  That's personal to me.  I am interested in people's opinions/takes but as to what makes them happy as fans, I can care less.  That's up to them.   I got other quirks as a fan, too. 😀

  

8 hours ago, SweatSuit said:

 

The overall point though was that QBs can be had anywhere throughout the draft. Hurts is the latest example of a QB flying under the radar for whatever reason and finding some early success. No reason to root for losses (in this context) when it’s been pointed out time and time again that you don’t need a top 3 pick to find that guy. And I totally know you weren’t saying he was the GOAT, I was just making fun of the general buzz surrounding the guy. He looked good to be sure but a couple good games isn’t enough to make me believe he’s going to find long term success in this league. Though if I’m being honest with myself, I’ve always admired Hurts and his demeanor from afar, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he ends up great. He’s got the right mindset dating back to his college days. Hurts he’s on the Eagles (pun intended). 

 

I got no idea about Hurts aside from he looked better than Wentz who was a train wreck this season. Hurts maybe is doubling down on the idea of don't underestimate mobility as a trait.  I've never loved him as a passer though.  I do tend to love QBs with mobility hence my interest in Fields and Wilson and to a lesser extent Lance.  I think they are all likely out of reach now.  It's the reason why in the later rounds my guy would be Ridder because of his mobility. 

 

The thing about the draft is the debate doesn't have to be so polarizing and binary. Saying you have a better shot when you draft higher doesn't equal you can't find a guy later.  And I think people know that but it becomes an easy way to ridicule or grossly minimize the idea that there is an advantage to drafting higher by presenting the other side of that point as something ridiculous.  

 

Just like Mike Tomlin told Chase Young, that he won't be in reach to get guys that look like him because he's never drafting that high.  The sun doesn't rise and fall with a higher draft pick but yes it can help the bottom line.

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

22 hours ago, KDawg said:

Do people read my posts? Or do I talk to my ****ing self? Read the first line.

 

But I don’t want Haskins, either.

 

Hey, can we revisit this point. I thinK Darnold is now among the top of my list of wants at outside QBs. 

 

1. Smith

2. Kyle Allen

3. Darnold

 

He has similar stats to Haskins without the headaches and is just as young with the potential to be a franchise guy. Still unlikely but at this point it could be a good competition to have Allen and Darnold compete in camp next year. 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Hey, can we revisit this point. I thinK Darnold is now among the top of my list of wants at outside QBs. 

 

1. Smith

2. Kyle Allen

3. Darnold

 

He has similar stats to Haskins without the headaches and is just as young with the potential to be a franchise guy. Still unlikely but at this point it could be a good competition to have Allen and Darnold compete in camp next year. 

 

I am mixed at best about Darnold the player.  But as a dude he's supposedly a boy scout. 

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am mixed at best about Darnold the player.  But as a dude he's supposedly a boy scout. 

I want youth and potential. Its even better if there has been some display of talent. There is a list of young guys I like but Darnold is the youngest and the highest drafted who may be available. But there's talk that he may require a first rounder. I wouldn't give that up. Maybe a second. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I want youth and potential. Its even better if there has been some display of talent. There is a list of young guys I like but Darnold is the youngest and the highest drafted who may be available. But there's talk that he may require a first rounder. I wouldn't give that up. Maybe a second. 

 

I wouldn't hate Darnold depending on the price.  But to me he's more of a roll of the dice than the typical get if we are trading picks.   Based on what some national reporters have said, it will take like a 2nd and maybe a 3rd or 4th thrown in.  If so I think its too steep for a roll of the dice.  If he was a rookie or year 2 maybe I'd feel differently but his contract is almost up so if he balls or even just plays well but not great he will become an expensive QB really quick.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I want youth and potential. Its even better if there has been some display of talent. There is a list of young guys I like but Darnold is the youngest and the highest drafted who may be available. But there's talk that he may require a first rounder. I wouldn't give that up. Maybe a second. 

I’m wary of that price, it’s basically a one year rental unless to take up his 5th year option, sure someone said that being 25mil (not sure how accurate that is)...

 

I’ve go 4th rounder max with a conditional future pick depending on various levels of his performance.

[Thinking Skins]

The thing about Darnold is that he's 23 so I could see trading for him as comparable to trading up in the draft for a QB, but you're getting more of a known because he has performed at this level. But he's younger than some prospects coming out (TMAC came in at 24 or 25) so that may make him worth a bit more. The fact that he has already 'failed' to turn around the Jets may be reason that his price is lower now (no longer the shiny new toy) but I could see us trading something similar to what Seattle sent to us for Trent and I wouldn't be mad about it. If it works, great we found our guy. If not, then we've just busted on a second rounder but didn't have to do an RG3 trade. 

[Thinking Skins]

@Spaceman Spiff (I'm bringing this in from the Haskins thread). 

 

I would also like to get Minshew. He's a good QB and is probably just not doing well under Gruden. I'm not saying he's a definite fit for Turner, but he has shown he can play in this league. And After Smith, Allen and Darnold, I'd probably put Minshew next on my list. After him its a bunch of guys who are either old (Stafford) or backups who haven't had much time in the league. But Minshew is on my short list as well. 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The thing about Darnold is that he's 23 so I could see trading for him as comparable to trading up in the draft for a QB, but you're getting more of a known because he has performed at this level. But he's younger than some prospects coming out (TMAC came in at 24 or 25) so that may make him worth a bit more. The fact that he has already 'failed' to turn around the Jets may be reason that his price is lower now (no longer the shiny new toy) but I could see us trading something similar to what Seattle sent to us for Trent and I wouldn't be mad about it. If it works, great we found our guy. If not, then we've just busted on a second rounder but didn't have to do an RG3 trade. 

 

Not really the same.  If he's the dude his big money is coming starting the following season.  With a rookie you got him 4 years cheap.  But agree on the age.  Also like I've been saying beggars can't be choosers.  We might not have easy optiions in the draft or FA/trade market.  So to me it all depends. 

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

@Spaceman Spiff (I'm bringing this in from the Haskins thread). 

 

I would also like to get Minshew. He's a good QB and is probably just not doing well under Gruden. I'm not saying he's a definite fit for Turner, but he has shown he can play in this league. And After Smith, Allen and Darnold, I'd probably put Minshew next on my list. After him its a bunch of guys who are either old (Stafford) or backups who haven't had much time in the league. But Minshew is on my short list as well. 

 

I know its chic for some to pound Jay and I get it.  But stats wise, he's better this year than last.  I haevn't really watched him to have an opinion. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Spaceman Spiff]

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

@Spaceman Spiff (I'm bringing this in from the Haskins thread). 

 

I would also like to get Minshew. He's a good QB and is probably just not doing well under Gruden. I'm not saying he's a definite fit for Turner, but he has shown he can play in this league. And After Smith, Allen and Darnold, I'd probably put Minshew next on my list. After him its a bunch of guys who are either old (Stafford) or backups who haven't had much time in the league. But Minshew is on my short list as well. 

 

Ah, yeah.  This would have been a better thread for my Minshew rant I just posted in the Haskins thread.

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Not really the same.  If he's the dude his big money is coming starting the following season.  With a rookie you got him 4 years cheap.  But agree on the age.  Also like I've been saying beggars can't be choosers.  We might not have easy optiions in the draft or FA/trade market.  So to me it all depends. 

True, but what's his "big money"? He's not going to get a 25 million dollar contract unless he balls out. He'd probably get a $10 mil contract (thats what Marcus Mariota is playing under). Maybe he gets $15 or $20 but I can't see it being more than that for one good year. 

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I know its chic for some to pound Jay and I get it.  But stats wise, he's better this year than last.  I haevn't really watched him to have an opinion. 

Honestly I haven't looked at anything other than W/L and assumed he was playing poorly. I know that they'll be drafting Lawrence now and he'll likely want to leave. We could probably trade for him for less than Darnold but he has a lower ceiling. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

True, but what's his "big money"? He's not going to get a 25 million dollar contract unless he balls out. He'd probably get a $10 mil contract (thats what Marcus Mariota is playing under). Maybe he gets $15 or $20 but I can't see it being more than that for one good year. 

 

Even if he puts up just good numbers with today's contracts yeah he will likely get 25 million.  It's not 2018 anymore.   If he balls out likely over 30. 

 

Don't get me wrong its a good problem to have but it doesn't match having a rookie QB ball out on the cheap for a minimum of 4 years. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

Well, not that it was in much doubt but... we can count Haskins as not being on the roster next year at this point. 

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Even if he puts up just good numbers with today's contracts yeah he will likely get 25 million.  It's not 2018 anymore.   If he balls out likely over 30. 

 

Don't get me wrong its a good problem to have but it doesn't match having a rookie QB ball out on the cheap for a minimum of 4 years. 

I just can't see that. I can see him getting a Mariota contract. The $25 goes to the Stafford / Cousins / Carr.  Look at Tannehill. He signed a 4 year 77 mil in Miami and then was cut and signed a 1 year 2 milion contract before last year. I could see Darnold doing something like that. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Well, not that it was in much doubt but... we can count Haskins as not being on the roster next year at this point. 

 

Here's hoping.

[CommanderInTheRye]

Put me down for the stash too!

 

Minshew is smart, has charisma, is as tough as a two dollar steak and works his butt off-  plus we could probably get him for a mid round pick. With our defense he’s good enough to get us to the playoffs and maybe a bit more. Works for me.

[Thinking Skins]

17 minutes ago, TrancesWithWolves said:

Put me down for the stash too!

 

Minshew is smart, has charisma, is as tough as a two dollar steak and works his butt off-  plus we could probably get him for a mid round pick. With our defense he’s good enough to get us to the playoffs and maybe a bit more. Works for me.

The only problems I have with Minshew is his arm strength and the question of was he the force driving their offense or was the offense pulling him along? Its a similar question I ask about most QBs but in some sense I may put Minshew on the same plane or not too far ahead of a Nick Mullens or Brissett or some other backups with less playing time who have looked decent. Minshew has done more but I don't know what his ceiling is and that makes me less excited about him. 

[CommanderInTheRye]

23 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The only problems I have with Minshew is his arm strength and the question of was he the force driving their offense or was the offense pulling him along? Its a similar question I ask about most QBs but in some sense I may put Minshew on the same plane or not too far ahead of a Nick Mullens or Brissett or some other backups with less playing time who have looked decent. Minshew has done more but I don't know what his ceiling is and that makes me less excited about him. 

 

Arm strength is definitely a concern. I would say he has a medium ceiling but a high floor— he is a known quantity. He won’t make many pro bowls but he can help you win on day one. That’s exactly what we need.

 

Minshew is certainly not the final answer just someone that can pass muster right now. Our defense is poised to win now we don’t have the time to go the draft and develop route. By the time a qb drafted where we will be picking is ready our d-line group will be up for big pay days.

 

Having someone like Minshew allows us to fill needs with our early picks and select a developmental qb in the third or 4th round without the pressure that he has to play immediately.

 

We need someone that can step in and drive this train. We could do a lot worse than Gardner Minshew.

Edited December 22, 2020 by TrancesWithWolves

[BurgundyBooger]

Just more on Jacoby Brissett from teammates:

 

Quote

Talk to people around the league about Brissett and they’ll tell you he’s razor-sharp in the film room, has a good passing arm and is a big-time athlete. As important, though, they say he’s a selfless teammate who is well-respected in the locker room. 

 

 

Quote

“Diligent, sharp, loves football,” Andrew Luck told reporters. “I hope I can continue to support him in different ways, so thankful for our friendship."

 

“A lifelong friend, he means so, so much to me. He’s a big part of me, and a big part of me having one of the most rewarding years of my life last year. Cannot wait to support him and see him lead this team. Excited for the future of the Colts, in large part because of Jacoby.”

 

https://theundefeated.com/features/jacoby-brissett-has-been-here-before-only-now-he-has-a-chance-to-become-a-star/

 

His attitude towards the media:

 

Quote

It has been well-documented and repeated week after week how Patriots head coach Bill Belichick feels about the media. He may have drafted a kindred spirit in Brissett who uh, let’s just say can think of a few -- okay, quite a few things -- he would prefer to do than interviews.

 

While at N.C. State, Brissett would at times miss interviews because he was watching video or working on timing routes with teammates or . . . football stuff, you know. . It wasn’t so much as a slight to the media but more about where Brissett’s focus lies -- on the game of football -- and how he wanted to limit as much as he could anything that he perceived would interfere with that.

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/new-england-patriots/four-cool-things-you-probably-didnt-know-about-new-england-patriots-qb-jacoby-brissett

 

Young, smart, athletic, very coachable, and has his head on straight. Also, having played behind Tom Brady, Andrew Luck, and now Rivers, and coached under Belichick, and you have a young QB who's gone to the NFL equivalent of Harvard throughout his career.  I'll be shilling this kid throughout the offseason lol

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by BurgundyBooger

[Skinsinparadise]

Am not in love with Mac's QB attributes but I do like him, he doesn't have the mobility that I typically like.  But right now considering where we'd be drafting he might be our best shot.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I just can't see that. I can see him getting a Mariota contract. The $25 goes to the Stafford / Cousins / Carr.  Look at Tannehill. He signed a 4 year 77 mil in Miami and then was cut and signed a 1 year 2 milion contract before last year. I could see Darnold doing something like that. 

 

Tannehill was on the decline not on the rise then.  Ditto Mariotta.   We are presenting the opposite sceanrio -- a QB on the rise.   Hot QB > Cold QB.  QB contracts have also really risen in the last 2 years.  30 million is now what 22 million once was. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Kiss Mike Rumph]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am mixed at best about Darnold the player.  But as a dude he's supposedly a boy scout. 

 

Well this would be great if we were looking for a scoutmaster. I want a guy who can win games at QB.

 

Tom Brady and Drew Brees are by no definition 'great guys' but they win so you don't hear about it. Payton Manning took steroids and blamed it on his wife. We are trying to put together the best TEAM, are we not? Darnold the football player has shown very little to prove he would be a viable option at Quarterback. He might be an incredible guy, and I hope he is, but that alone isn't worth ignoring the fact that he's been mostly terrible from the very first pass of his NFL career until now. 

[skinny21]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Am not in love with Mac's QB attributes but I do like him, he doesn't have the mobility that I typically like.  But right now considering where we'd be drafting he might be our best shot.

 

 

 

 

Tannehill was on the decline not on the rise then.  Ditto Mariotta.   We are presenting the opposite sceanrio -- a QB on the rise.   Hot QB > Cold QB.  QB contracts have also really risen in the last 2 years.  30 million is now what 22 million once was. 

I would guess something like Carr’s contract - low to mid 20’s with early guarantees.  30 would really surprise me, but I guess it depends just what kind of year we’re talking about.  Will be interesting to see how much contracts change given COVID and for how long (just this year?).  Of course, if Darnold were to play well, there’s a good chance we win a bunch of games, which will factor into a new contract.  Wonder if he might sign a short extension (1-2 years) as part of the trade?  I can see a financial argument against it, but it buys him time to adjust to a new system without (as much) fear of going to yet another new team/system the following year.

 

In terms of Darnold the player, I really haven’t followed him at all, but the prospect of him spending some time behind Alex Smith before taking over is appealing.  If a guy like Haskins can pick up some things from Smith, I have to imagine someone like Darnold could benefit even more.

[Skinsinparadise]

@KDawg I am a fan of Fields but you are an even bigger fan of the dude.  Do you think last weeks performance makes him drop?  Most draft geek think not but some do.  Some say Wilson has surpassed Fields on some boards according to their sources albeit that could be BS for all we know and or purposeful misinformation.  

 

I'd guess he will recover from it if he has a bounce back game. 

 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2923469-matt-millers-scouting-notebook-latest-2021-nfl-mock-draft-and-more

The Scout's Report

—Justin Fields' draft stock is one of the hottest topics around the league. The Ohio State quarterback has jaw-dropping physical abilities, but against the best defenses he's faced, issues with decision-making and processing speed have been notable concerns. Fields' five interceptions against Indiana (one wasn't on him) and Northwestern will concern scouts. Is he trying to do too much? Is he seeing the field? Given the decline of Carson Wentz this year with similar issues, teams must thoroughly vet Fields' day-one ability and his aptitude for improvement. Fans shouldn't anoint or automatically insert Fields as the No. 2 quarterback in this class. Not yet, at least.

40 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I would guess something like Carr’s contract - low to mid 20’s with early guarantees.  30 would really surprise me, but I guess it depends just what kind of year we’re talking about.  Will be interesting to see how much contracts change given COVID and for how long (just this year?).  Of course, if Darnold were to play well, there’s a good chance we win a bunch of games, which will factor into a new contract.  Wonder if he might sign a short extension (1-2 years) as part of the trade?  I can see a financial argument against it, but it buys him time to adjust to a new system without (as much) fear of going to yet another new team/system the following year.

 

In terms of Darnold the player, I really haven’t followed him at all, but the prospect of him spending some time behind Alex Smith before taking over is appealing.  If a guy like Haskins can pick up some things from Smith, I have to imagine someone like Darnold could benefit even more.

 

I said 30 only if he balls -- great season.   From what I recall Jimmy G got overpaid from just a hot period that wasn't even a full season. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

50 minutes ago, Kiss Mike Rumph said:

 

Well this would be great if we were looking for a scoutmaster. I want a guy who can win games at QB.

 

Tom Brady and Drew Brees are by no definition 'great guys' but they win so you don't hear about it. Payton Manning took steroids and blamed it on his wife. We are trying to put together the best TEAM, are we not? Darnold the football player has shown very little to prove he would be a viable option at Quarterback. He might be an incredible guy, and I hope he is, but that alone isn't worth ignoring the fact that he's been mostly terrible from the very first pass of his NFL career until now. 

 

I've made posts here being lukewarm at best about Darnold as a player.  So nope I am not suggesting to trade for him for being a good guy.  If so, we should have kept John Beck.   My point was directed at @Thinking Skins who liked Haskins versus Darnold the other day but turned today the other way presumably because of today's incident.  So I just hit back that Darnold doesn't have Haskins immaturity issues at least from what I've read.