Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[DWinzit]

2 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

Rivers is no longer an option if he ever was.

Wow, good for him. He can go spend time with his family and we don't have to watch his talent deteriorate on the field

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We are not back to the abyss if we don't solve QB this offseason. That's silly. We're good and going to improve regardless. We won't be shoving a Haskins out front to take loses.

 

Listening to their podcasts, I don't think they meant abyss in the context of losing but from the context of stuck in purgatory (same point that PFF guys like to make about this team of late) if they don't figure out QB.   In another words, limited ceiling.  The PFF guys come off stronger on it saying we will waste this defense if  QB isn't fixed.  They aren't saying this team will be bad but if they want to be better than just good then fix QB. 

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Listening to their podcasts, I don't think they meant abyss in the context of losing but from the context of stuck in purgatory (same point that PFF guys like to make about this team of late) if they don't figure out QB.   In another words, limited ceiling.  The PFF guys come off stronger on it saying we will waste this defense if  QB isn't fixed.  They aren't saying this team will be bad but if they want to be better than just good then fix QB. 

I get that.

[Skinsinparadise]

And for as bad as the NFC East was this year, there's an improving team with $35.4 million in cap space and tons of intriguing young players who could make a move: the Washington Football Team.

"I think they will be involved in the QB sweepstakes in a big way," an NFC exec said. "They know they are close."

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/30744455/deshaun-watson-trade-value-destinations-plus-houston-texans-do-next

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Listening to their podcasts, I don't think they meant abyss in the context of losing but from the context of stuck in purgatory (same point that PFF guys like to make about this team of late) if they don't figure out QB.   In another words, limited ceiling.  The PFF guys come off stronger on it saying we will waste this defense if  QB isn't fixed.  They aren't saying this team will be bad but if they want to be better than just good then fix QB. 

 

The PFF guys are absolutely brilliant.

 

Get a QB who is top tier caliber and profit. They should write a book

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

The PFF guys are absolutely brilliant.

 

Get a QB who is top tier caliber and profit. They should write a book

 

All they are saying is Qb is a code red position in their eyes with the roster they have.  Trade up, move picks, do whatever it takes.  I don't think its slam dunk no brainer stuff.  Some on this thread clearly disagree that the spot is code red to that extent and do whatever it takes including aggressively trade assets now. 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[tmandoug1]

17 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Hmmmmmm....isn't that strange!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

All they are saying is Qb is a code red position in their eyes with the roster they have.  Trade up, move picks, do whatever it takes.  I don't think its slam dunk no brainer stuff.  Some on this thread clearly disagree that the spot is code red to that extent and do whatever it takes including aggressively trade assets now. 

 

I don't believe it's code red. I think that's awfully dramatic, actually.

 

I don't think a "good QB" improves our ceiling. I think drafting a franchise QB long term improves our ceiling.

 

It's really simple stuff. Draft an elite QB or acquire a vet on a stacked roster and profit. 

 

Would a Stafford improve us this year? Likely. But not guaranteed.

 

My main point: But regardless of our differences in QB philosophy... Most teams are looking for a franchise QB to extend their ceilings above "having a chance" to "having a good chance"

7 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

Hmmmmmm....isn't that strange!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

They are going to hire Bieniemy and he'll be fine.

Edited January 20, 2021 by KDawg

[Koolblue13]

I just think the notion of "we need a great QB now, this year, asap or we will suck forever" is too panicky. 

 

It would be great to have a franchise QB in 2021, but it doesn't seem likely whatsoever that we can outbid the teams ahead of us. It feels like half the league is QB or bust right now and they're all in front of us in the draft.

 

It feels too forced this year, to be worth the necessary resources. Drafting and developing someone to play behind Allen, Heinicke or whoever, while we complete the team build is an acceptable approach. Yes, we have a lot of talent on rookie deals and hopefully we will in 2 years from now too. 

 

We all want the QB question answered. All of us.

[justice98]

22 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

Rivers is no longer an option if he ever was.

 

To me, it's less about that, and more that's one more team to compete with in terms of needing a QB.

[Koolblue13]

Bieniemy has to be the hottest name in coaching searches. Why the hell would he want that mess?

[Warhead36]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I just think the notion of "we need a great QB now, this year, asap or we will suck forever" is too panicky. 

 

It would be great to have a franchise QB in 2021, but it doesn't seem likely whatsoever that we can outbid the teams ahead of us. It feels like half the league is QB or bust right now and they're all in front of us in the draft.

 

It feels too forced this year, to be worth the necessary resources. Drafting and developing someone to play behind Allen, Heinicke or whoever, while we complete the team build is an acceptable approach. Yes, we have a lot of talent on rookie deals and hopefully we will in 2 years from now too. 

 

We all want the QB question answered. All of us.

The problem is the more we put the QB problem off, the more it hurts us. We only have a window open for so long of all these guys on rookie contracts. Eventually we're gonna have to start paying people.

 

The earlier we get the QB, the earlier our window to contend opens up. We ain't winning jack squat with the likes of Tyrod Taylor at QB.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

The problem is the more we put the QB problem off, the more it hurts us. We only have a window open for so long of all these guys on rookie contracts. Eventually we're gonna have to start paying people.

 

The earlier we get the QB, the earlier our window to contend opens up. We ain't winning jack squat with the likes of Tyrod Taylor at QB.

I completely agree with that.

[justice98]

23 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Wow, good for him. He can go spend time with his family and we don't have to watch his talent deteriorate on the field

 

I'm happy for him that he came back and had a decent year.  He looked cooked his last year in San Diego, but came back and had a good year by any measure this year.

[KDawg]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

The problem is the more we put the QB problem off, the more it hurts us. We only have a window open for so long of all these guys on rookie contracts. Eventually we're gonna have to start paying people.

 

The earlier we get the QB, the earlier our window to contend opens up. We ain't winning jack squat with the likes of Tyrod Taylor at QB.

You don’t put it off. You just don’t force it.

 

You wind up doing more damage forcing it than making a good move.

 

If Stafford becomes available for a 2 and a 4 and he’s okay coming here? Do it. If Stafford is available for a 1 and 3? I wouldn’t do it.

 

If Watson is available for 2 firsts? Strong consideration. If he’s available for three firsts and Allen and 40M in cap? Hard pass. (I don’t think he’s available).

 

If the franchise rookie is available at 9 and it costs a 1st swap, an extra first and a second and we really like him? Do it. 
 

If we like a FA QB who is semi young to be the full time guy? Do it. If we want insurance for a bridge QB and want to see what the guys we have offer in the mean time? Do it.

[mhd24]

Just now, justice98 said:

 

I'm happy for him that he came back and had a decent year.  He looked cooked his last year in San Diego, but came back and had a good year by any measure this year.

The colts are built right.  They have oodles of cap room and a good o-line (although they need to replace Costanzo).  Their defense is pretty good too.  I think they are the #1 Stafford destination (Detroit gets to do him right and trade him out of conference).

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

You don’t put it off. You just don’t force it.

 

You wind up doing more damage forcing it than making a good move.

 

If Stafford becomes available for a 2 and a 4 and he’s okay coming here? Do it. If Stafford is available for a 1 and 3? I wouldn’t do it.

 

If Watson is available for 2 firsts? Strong consideration. If he’s available for three firsts and Allen and 40M in cap? Hard pass. (I don’t think he’s available).

 

If the franchise rookie is available at 9 and it costs a 1st swap, an extra first and a second and we really like him? Do it. 
 

If we like a FA QB who is semi young to be the full time guy? Do it. If we want insurance for a bridge QB and want to see what the guys we have offer in the mean time? Do it.

I agree with the not forcing it part. But I do think a move of some sorts has to be made this off season. I want the title window to open up ASAP.

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I agree with the not forcing it part. But I do think a move of some sorts has to be made this off season. I want the title window to open up ASAP.

 

That's forcing it.

 

But if you mean even so far as a bridge vet FA or mid range draft pick in addition to Heinicke/Allen... I agree.

 

There needs to be a new QB on the roster in some fashion.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

I don't believe it's code red. I think that's awfully dramatic, actually.

 

 

I know you don't.  I took your post as you saying that PFF are just stating the obvious.   I get it because I didn't expound on their point.  And in fairness its not PFF as a unit but two of their writers, who both more or less say they'd move heaven on earth to get a QB now.  Their favorite method to do it is to trade the farm if need be to get one of the top 4 QBs in this draft, they'd trade the 2021 first, 2022 first and more in a heartbeat to get one of those guys. 

 

But yeah those two writers are among the group who think we'd regret it years later if we look back and say we squandered a window.  They are optimistic about this roster.  But they aren't optimistic its a SB roster without a serious upgrade at QB.  They could be right or wrong.  Will see.  I am somewhat close to their point of view hence I am parroting it. 😀  Actually part of me likes hearing it from them via the vantage point that those PFF guys have in the past been killjoys about this roster.  They've at times downplayed any hype about this team's potential.  they've seemed to go a 180 on that so I admit I enjoy hearing some sunshine from the PFF guys for a change.  Not that their take is the be all and end all by a long shot.  

 

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

 

I don't think a "good QB" improves our ceiling. I think drafting a franchise QB long term improves our ceiling.

 

Depends on how you define good.  If we are talking about Stafford I believe he does.  Naturally a franchise QB would.  But to me a getting a franchise QB isn't easy.  Of course I'd rather get the filet mignon over the skirt streak but where is the filet coming from? 

 

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

It's really simple stuff. Draft an elite QB or acquire a vet on a stacked roster and profit. 

 

 

If your point is go to town like PFF is saying and give up major assets to get Fields or Wilson, I could entertain it.   Getting either one will very unlikely be cheap.  I am guessing ditto Lance who I am not as high on but still would like.  Otherwise I don't see where the franchise QB is coming from. 

 

14 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

My main point: But regardless of our differences in QB philosophy... Most QBs are looking for a franchise QB to extend their ceilings above "having a chance" to "having a good chance"

 

Agree.  And obviously everyone on this thread wants a franchise guy.  If we have a difference on this maybe its I think its harder to do?    We've failed  numerous decades to find one.  It's especially hard to do if you aren't picking high in the draft.   Some say just do what the Chiefs and Texans did.  I agree that's doable.  But it requires some luck.  Not every draft has a Watson or Mahomes around pick #10.   If your point is if Lance falls to that range, trade what you need to, I might be OK with that but its likely going to take some serious draft capital.

 

The hard thing about this draft is there seems to be so many QB needy teams where I'd think you'd have some competiton in a bidding war -- alas probably same point applies to veterans. 

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know you don't.  I took your post as you saying that PFF are just stating the obvious.   I get it because I didn't expound on their point.  And in fairness its not PFF as a unit but two of their writers, who both more or less say they'd move heaven on earth to get a QB now.  Their favorite method to do it is to trade the farm if need be to get one of the top 4 QBs in this draft, they'd trade the 2021 first, 2022 first and more in a heartbeat to get one of those guys. 

 

But yeah those two writers are among the group who think we'd regret it years later if we look back and say we squandered a window.  They are optimistic about this roster.  But they aren't optimistic its a SB roster without a serious upgrade at QB.  They could be right or wrong.  Will see.  I am somewhat close to their point of view hence I am parroting it. 😀  Actually part of me likes hearing it from them via the vantage point that those PFF guys have in the past been killjoys about this roster.  They've at times downplayed any hype about this team's potential.  they've seemed to go a 180 on that so I admit I enjoy hearing some sunshine from the PFF guys for a change.  Not that their take is the be all and end all by a long shot.  

 

 

Depends on how you define good.  If we are talking about Stafford I believe he does.  Naturally a franchise QB would.  But to me a getting a franchise QB isn't easy.  Of course I'd rather get the filet mignon over the skirt streak but where is the filet coming from? 

 

 

If your point is go to town like PFF is saying and give up major assets to get Fields or Wilson, I could entertain it.   Getting either one will very unlikely be cheap.  I am guessing ditto Lance who I am not as high on but still would like.  Otherwise I don't see where the franchise QB is coming from. 

 

 

Agree.  And obviously everyone on this thread wants a franchise guy.  If we have a difference on this maybe its I think its harder to do?    We've failed  numerous decades to find one.  It's especially hard to do if you aren't picking high in the draft.   Some say just do what the Chiefs and Texans did.  I agree that's doable.  But it requires some luck.  Not every draft has a Watson or Mahomes around pick #10.   If your point is if Lance falls to that range, trade what you need to, I might be OK with that but its likely going to take some serious draft capital.

 

The hard thing about this draft is there seems to be so many QB needy teams where I'd think you'd have some competiton in a bidding war -- alas probably same point applies to veterans. 

 

I think I must be doing a horrendous job getting my point across on a QB...

 

I don't think we have an easy path to one this offseason. I think almost any move we make is forcing it. And that is a bad move no matter what.

 

The only positive moves I could see are a trade up for Fields/Lance/Wilson. That is somewhat dependent on cost. And I'm not AS high on Wilson as many are but I like him more than some years' top QB guy so I'd be supportive of that if the team likes him. 

 

A Stafford trade could work, but the chances that it's a deal that fits what we can afford to lose asset wise/he wants to come here/there's not better offers on the table are slim.

 

There is a FA path to Dak, but again... it's not likely. Dallas likely signs him. If not, he is a really high cap hit... Which if you could guarantee he'd be the same player and healthy that he was in the beginning of 2020 then it may be worth it. But... He is coming off of a major injuries... So not only would that be tough because he's not likely available, but then you have to swallow the cap hit in a year the cap isn't likely to go up like it would have AND we have contracts that need to get done AND we don't know how well he comes back from the injury.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Writers have to be dramatic. If the article is "Wash is pretty good and if they decide to be smart about their resources and not throw everything into the QB lottery and just build the team for the inevitable rookie" it would be boring. 

[DefinitelyMaybe]

Saw Kiper and co had Lance to us at 19 in their first draft, if that happens I suddenly become very open to a year of Cam, he’d be the perfect guy to shadow fresh into the league with Lance’s skillset

 

Outside of that scenario, I have 0 interest in Cam

Edited January 20, 2021 by DefinitelyMaybe

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Writers have to be dramatic. If the article is "Wash is pretty good and if they decide to be smart about their resources and not throw everything into the QB lottery and just build the team for the inevitable rookie" it would be boring. 

I don't know... I think they could make it interesting by delving into it a bit.

 

I'm seriously considering getting into that kind of stuff if I can figure out a path to it. This is the **** I love to do and its one of the few things in life I think I'm good at

[Est.1974]

Drafting Lance and retaining Allen and Heinicke is the most balanced approach in terms of resource management and utilisation.

 

Can’t see Rivera accepting the associated risk of flat-lining for a season though.

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I just think the notion of "we need a great QB now, this year, asap or we will suck forever" is too panicky. 

 

It would be great to have a franchise QB in 2021, but it doesn't seem likely whatsoever that we can outbid the teams ahead of us. It feels like half the league is QB or bust right now and they're all in front of us in the draft.

 

It feels too forced this year, to be worth the necessary resources. Drafting and developing someone to play behind Allen, Heinicke or whoever, while we complete the team build is an acceptable approach. Yes, we have a lot of talent on rookie deals and hopefully we will in 2 years from now too. 

 

We all want the QB question answered. All of us.

 

I don't think its get a QB or we suck forever is what anyone is saying though, not even close.  It's more get a QB quick or we are reliving the Gibbs 2 era or something like that.  It will be nice but nothing special.  

 

From what I can tell the go get a QB crowd believe (based on the past) getting a QB doesn't come cheap.  You got to pay a premium for the filet mignon.  Yeah sometimes you can get lucky and get one cheaper.  Sometimes it falls in your lap.  But luck is the operative word and we don't want to waste this roster on a leap and a prayer. And perhaps more on point, we don't think the odds are good that Kyle Allen or name that dude on this roster Nick Foles' his way into a SB.  Is it possible?  Sure.  Likely?  We don't think so. 

 

The anxiety that is fueling the thought is predicated on this D line won't be cheap forever (2-3 years more).  And its very easy to see we could be having exactly this same conversation three years from now.  Usually the Tannehill reclamation type projects have failed.  We've tried it multiple times and failed.   We've taken a series of QBs in the draft and failed with that, too.   We've done everything imaginable to get one of these guys.  It's really really really hard.  So the idea of sit back and see if an opportunity presents itself if not now than later is met with heavy cynicism.

 

So I think cynicism drives this point perhaps more on our (or at least for me) end than anxiety.  I genuinely don't believe that if we aren't aggressive that a cooler opportunity would present itself at a different time down the road.  I get the idea of prudence.  It sounds very calm and adult.  But in my book its predicated on optimism which I don't share.  Part of the reason why I like citing the PFF guys is that they are far from emotional fly off the handle types.  They are nerdy and driven by data.  They share this sentiment.  So at a minimum I don't think we are off the deep end crazy.  😀

 

So for me its either go get one of the top dudes in the draft or one of the better veterans in the market.  And if we punt on it assuming the landscape will improve in 2022 or 2023 or whenever, I'd bet against that turning out to be true.  Not saying you are on the other side of this.  Just explaining my mindset.

 

Heck if we don't go QB this year and just take lets say the tallest midget from FA who I think its Ryan Fitzpatrick then IMO you got to be super aggressive to load him up with weapons.  Hence my go get Kyle Pitts thought or N. Harris and kill it on the ground.  If we go with medicority at QB, then I think your weapons need to be special.  Do I think that's the receipe for SB?  Nope.  But beggars can't be choosers.  So you got to make due with your next best shot.

 

If I had to bet on it, i don't think the be aggressive at QB scenario will ever present itself in 2021.  So these type of debates are more about philosophy then reality.  But will see. 😀