Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

😀

 

 

I do think you and guys like DWinzit are extremely good with evals. So I keep watching him and saying, “okay, this is gonna be the session I see what they see!” And I... dont. And I’m sad. Every time.

 

3 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

I don't believe paying Dak is a winning formula.  I'd say that Dallas will pay him as well.

Well, I didn’t say sign Dak. I merely said a guy like Dak would be the starter over Allen, otherwise, short of Fields or Lawrence announcing they will only play for WFT and will hold out from everyone else... I think Allen is going to be the starter week one of preseason.

[jnhutchi3]

6 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

None of us do....but none of us matter, give him a week to prepare and maybe he looks better? 

 

I think Haskins has the physical tools to be a good QB, but he doesn't have the confidence to win a big game against a team like Pittsburgh or Seattle.  I think Smith is the only QB Washington has right now that is capable of winning big games and pulling off upsets.  

[TheShredder]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Well, I didn’t say sign Dak. I merely said a guy like Dak would be the starter over Allen, otherwise, short of Fields or Lawrence announcing they will only play for WFT and will hold out from everyone else... I think Allen is going to be the starter week one of preseason.

The whole Dak story feels like a Cousins story and it's like whoever signs him is going to be the Vikings. 

They definitely resign Allen to a new deal and I suspect with their leverage it's multiple years and cheap. 

[Koolblue13]

Smith is absolutely an upgradable player, but our record with and without him is insane, so you won't hear me talking against the guy. He's a huge asset. He's got Thomas looking like a starting TE when we have absolutely zero other options besides TMac. I am absolutely comfortable with Smith leading Allen and a rookie on the bench.

Especially if we address WR2, WR3, TE1 and RB1 or 2 opposite Gibson this offseason. We are absolute a playoff team next year without a doubt. That's impressive. 

We have such a young team and not a lot of Vets, and I can't think of a better one than Smith.

[Kelvin Bryant]

Kyle Allen is the best QB currently on the roster. Change my mind.

 

Allen: Passing Rating 99.3 TDs: 4 INTs: 1

Haskins: Passing Rating 79.4 TDs: 4 INTs: 3

Smith: Passing Rating 79.0 TDs: 4 INTs: 6

[NoCalMike]

I feel like with Alex Smith it is similar to what the Cousins situation was as his time here started to come to a close, there are better options out there, just make sure you snag one of them if you are going to let the current guy go.  Cousins was the best the franchise had in a long time, but the bar was set so low that above-average seemed like something half the fanbase wanted to run with.  Dude got his wish of getting out here and got paid a huge sum of money to.....basically be the same thing he was here.  Kudos to him for the new bank account total though.

 

Cam Newton? He is only 31 which in modern QB era is still plenty of being in their prime years-wise, but I more worry about all the damage he has taken over the years running with the ball and taking on all the contact along the way. I am not sure what else he has to give.

[Anselmheifer]

 

 

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think an 8-10 win season would be a waste of this roster.   If this was the 2015-2018 roster i'd feel differently. 

 

This is EXACTLY how I feel. I mean, I picture us if we invest in the other weaknesses on the roster looking like a scary team outside of QB. Just for giggles, imagine Allen Robinson, Lavonte David, Christian Darrisaw, Najee Harris, 3rd round WR, 3rd Rd TE. That's a super easily achievable off season. And with a QB, that's a 12 win team. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That's awful.  Feel better.  doing ok thus far with it?

 

 

I like Mac Jones but its all relative when it comes to talking about that next tier group.  i would bet against all of them being really good including Jones.  but I have a gambling mentality with QBs so I'd be willing to roll the dice on certain QBs more than others and Jones would be one of those guys.

 

I love both Zach Wilson and Fields.  I am intrigued by but don't love Lance.  The rest of the ones i tout are QBs I'd be willing to roll the dice on.  Maybe types.

 

 

 

I'm ok. Thanks. Just tired and achy, but in no danger. 

 

Regarding Mac Jones, I can see having a gambling mentality with QB's. I certainly believe in investing in the position until you find a guy. But spending a mid first on a guy with, let's say, a 25% of hitting, feels like a waste. If I ask myself, would you rather have a 1st round LT, or a guy that has a 25% chance of being a quality QB in 2-3 years, it's just hard to get excited. I think I'd rather put together a huge package to move up, or take a shot after the 1st and maybe even 2nd round. 

[Koolblue13]

Hell no to Dak  What an awful idea.

[Tedskins 21]

14 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

I think Haskins has the physical tools to be a good QB, but he doesn't have the confidence to win a big game against a team like Pittsburgh or Seattle.  I think Smith is the only QB Washington has right now that is capable of winning big games and pulling off upsets.  

 

I don't get these physical tools comments.  Yes Haskins is big, he can stand and take a hit, and he can throw the ball hard/far.  But he can't PASS.  That's just a natural gift and he can not do it. 

 

Neither Haskins or Cam are on this roster next year.  Like many have said, Alex is an uncertainty.  But even if he wants to be here, we still need to upgrade. 

 

If Kyle wasn't hurt, I am convinced we would have rolled into the draft without a FA signing at QB.  But if Alex retires, due to Kyle's injury, we make a move for another Vet.  The only ones that truly upgrade our situation are probably Stafford (without giving up major assets) and Phillip.  But I think they go mid-level QB, say Fitz, and then draft someone high.  At least, that would be my preference.

 

3 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

Kyle Allen is the best QB currently on the roster. Change my mind.

 

Allen: Passing Rating 99.3 TDs: 4 INTs: 1

Haskins: Passing Rating 79.4 TDs: 4 INTs: 3

Smith: Passing Rating 79.0 TDs: 4 INTs: 6

 

Agreed.  And if he wasn't injured, we wouldn't have had as much pressure to upgrade in FA.  But we will sign/trade for someone else.  I am certain, though, Cam isn't going to be that guy.  Stafford would really put us over the top IMO.  Then draft someone to sit behind he and Kyle (this is all assuming Alex isn't back.)

Edited December 16, 2020 by Tedskins 21

[NoCalMike]

3 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

Kyle Allen is the best QB currently on the roster. Change my mind.

 

Allen: Passing Rating 99.3 TDs: 4 INTs: 1

Haskins: Passing Rating 79.4 TDs: 4 INTs: 3

Smith: Passing Rating 79.0 TDs: 4 INTs: 6

 

I do think it's a shame we didn't get to see a bigger sample size of Kyle Allen before the injury.  He was definitely an upgrade over Haskins at the time he was put into the game.  It was hard to get a read on Rivera's actual thoughts on Kyle Allen as a legitimate option as the starter going forward beyond the season if he performed well this season had he not taken the injury. 

[TheShredder]

6 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

I think Haskins has the physical tools to be a good QB, but he doesn't have the confidence to win a big game against a team like Pittsburgh or Seattle.  I think Smith is the only QB Washington has right now that is capable of winning big games and pulling off upsets.  

I'd agree with that.  I don't like Haskins for his snowflake attitude and lack of professionalism.  He's inexperienced, lacks the mental toughness it takes to effectively change inherent deficiencies.  All this being displayed for all to see, decreasing his value year to year. He's untradeable so he'll be at camp next year.  I'd say it's less than 50/50 that Alex plays a 16th season in the NFL. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Hell no to Dak  What an awful idea.

You guys are actually reading my posts, aren’t you? Jesus.

[jnhutchi3]

1 minute ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

Kyle Allen is the best QB currently on the roster. Change my mind.

 

Allen: Passing Rating 99.3 TDs: 4 INTs: 1

Haskins: Passing Rating 79.4 TDs: 4 INTs: 3

Smith: Passing Rating 79.0 TDs: 4 INTs: 6

 

Smith's win/loss record is better.  Smith engineered Washington's biggest upset in the past 20 years against Pittsburgh.  Smith inspires the rest of the team because of his comeback and the whole team is playing better as a result.

 

We should keep rolling with Smith until he can't play anymore.    

[Koolblue13]

Just now, KDawg said:

You guys are actually reading my posts, aren’t you? Jesus.

 Only the non LBer ones  

[Daniel.redskins]

3 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

Kyle Allen is the best QB currently on the roster. Change my mind.

 

Allen: Passing Rating 99.3 TDs: 4 INTs: 1

Haskins: Passing Rating 79.4 TDs: 4 INTs: 3

Smith: Passing Rating 79.0 TDs: 4 INTs: 6

He is without a doubt the best qb on the team. We consistently sustained drives with him (yes, the Giants have a good defense). That last TD he threw against the Giants was the best throw this year. My only concern with him is arm strength. But if he can continue to scramble and learn Turner's offense like the back of his hand, I really think he can be our qb.  

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

Im losing it for Smith without his legs, this was the case for me before his recent poor outing. Thought the Steeler game was very close from getting ugly due to poor play by the offense and Smith in the 1st half. 

 

 

My cliff notes take on Alex:

 

A.  I trust him more than Allen and Haskins

B.  Like you I felt that his mobility was the cool gravy about him as a player so I don't like that its gone.

C.  I think he's the smartest-best leader among the QBs

D.  Especially after last Sunday, I am not totally sure I can trust his health

E.  I think its 50-50 he retires and the whole discussion is moot

F.  I am willing to pay what he costs if he's the best player we can get.  I am not so sure for example Fitzpatrick would be an upgrade over him, etc.

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

If the argument is having an elite guy, then I’m all in financially for the blue chip stock.

 

 

There aren't too many elite guys though.  i think with a great defense you can win the SB with an 7-10 type QB.  I don't think its likely with an average to below one or even slightly above average QB.  I don't see it as either Ruth's Chris Steak House or if not just get the best steak you can find on the cheap from Wendys (pretending they make steaks) and load up on high end appetizers and side dishes to complement the cheap steak.  If i have a cheap-great roster that's just missing a QB, i am within reason buying a steak from Morton's (assuming I can't get Ruth's Chris) even if I have to overpay some for it versus riding with a cheap steak.

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

 

 

Kodac in the 80s and 90s though  or if you were in on it before this last summer @ $2 it would’ve been the equivalent to a SB win.

 

 

Yeah Kodac re-invented itself thanks to COVID-19.  But they weren't on a ride like any of the FAANG stocks have been for a long long time previously.  

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

I’d still be up for having Dalton compete for the job next year 5-7mil. Only upside in a situation like this, no risk. 
 

The model above is achievable and controllable, where as you’re hoping for the next elite guy. Obviously, if you’re arguing from a position of I prefer elite over average, you got me. 
 

We agree that getting average to good play from a guy on his rookie deal is the holy grail, due to it being very feasible. I think you’d also agree securing a cheap beaten down stock of a veteran isn’t mutually exclusive getting a young guy. Do both. 

 

 

I am cool with doing both.  I just hate the idea of going with Dalton and just saying hey we got him cheap so lets ride with that.   I still think you likely need a QB who can compete in the playoffs with the big boys.  I am with you about a Qb with mobility.  Maybe for example a dude like Fields will be raw next season but I think he can use his mobility as a crutch.  Similar to how Kaepernick helped beat GB in the playoffs his first season as a starter.

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

Admittedly, I don’t put too much stock into playoff records for QBs due to the many variables involved and sample size data being so small. For example, Ryan Tannehill has a winning playoff record and completed 15 total passes in the two games combined. I think there’s many of these arguments for either side, which makes the data unreliable in many ways, IMO. 

 

 

I put stock in it when it matches the theory that I and plenty of others share which is in the playoffs puts more pressure on QBs because the competiton gets stiffer and the pressure rises.  In a big game I'd put my money on Aaron Rodgers outdueling Andy Dalton.  Dalton having a 0-4 playoff record seems to fit to me. 

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

The value diminishes dramatically for the average to above started at a great pay rate if the team isn’t solid to good around them. Keenums value to the Vikings was immense at 2-3mil that season, with a good team around him and a system he knew very well. Keenum would be on the low end for me in terms of value guys, in large part because of his physical limitations. I like guys who were solid with previous teams and have good to great baseline level of talent. Mariota is a name I like for next year, combined with a high rookie investment. 

 

 

I generally agree with this point.  I'd add that the odds that Keenum's limitations are likely at some point in the playoffs to put the breaks on a SB dream. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 Only the non LBer ones  

So you’re aware I don’t want Dak, but pointed out that the only way, in my opinion, Allen isn’t the starter heading into preseason next year is if we sign someone like Dak who would be declared the starter the moment they signed the contract.

 

Excellent! 
 

Also, our linebackers suck.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So you’re aware I don’t want Dak, but pointed out that the only way, in my opinion, Allen isn’t the starter heading into preseason next year is if we sign someone like Dak who would be declared the starter the moment they signed the contract.

 

Excellent! 
 

Also, our linebackers suck.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[TheShredder]

5 minutes ago, Tedskins 21 said:

f Kyle wasn't hurt, I am convinced we would have rolled into the draft without a FA signing at QB.  But if Alex retires, due to Kyle's injury, we make a move for another Vet.  The only ones that truly upgrade our situation are probably Stafford (without giving up major assets) and Phillip.  But I think they go mid-level QB, say Fitz, and then draft someone high.  At least, that would be my preference.

There's going to be multiple options available.  One thing is certain and that's Allen.  I view Haskins as untradeable so he's in camp.  There will be at least a vet (not likely Alex Smith) in that mix.  I think WFT would have to convince Alex and his wife that they were going All-in for 2021 in order for him to play a final 16th season.

[Renegade7]

The point about Alex being like Cousins in that we arent used to quality QB play is spot on.

 

It's crazy talk having Allen start next year.  To win a super bowl or pretend we have a QB?

 

I feel victorious in the turnaround on this topic, thank you, Football Team.

 

Its not an easy solution. I didn't think yall were serious about a Montez, some are, yikes.

 

I wish we could clone Alex Smith, but we can't.  So who can we get that anyone sees winning a ring with in next 3-4 years?  Sticking with Stafford.  

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So you’re aware I don’t want Dak, but pointed out that the only way, in my opinion, Allen isn’t the starter heading into preseason next year is if we sign someone like Dak who would be declared the starter the moment they signed the contract.

 

Excellent! 
 

Also, our linebackers suck.

I didn't quote you and I wasn't wasn't putting words in your mouth. I intentionally did not quote you. It wasn't about you, it was about not liking Dak as an option, which a few people have suggested and Someone just posted about not wanting him. If anything, I should have quoted Shredder in agreement. 

[NoCalMike]

What worries me about Haskins is that he is about a season and a half into his NFL career, and he didn't offer any kind of spark or "the defense is not familiar with this guy" element to the game when he was put in on Sunday.  The guy has an arm, yet there were absolutely zero changes to the kinds of plays being called.  They didn't even really call anything to give him a chance to throw it downfield and get the 49ers defense thinking a bit.  You look at the rookie QB on the Eagles, and no I am not crowning him by any means, but he comes into the game and it is like a completely different game plan the Saints are forced into trying to defend on the fly with no preparation.  I see none of that kind of thing when Haskins comes in.

 

I know the NFL does have some tape on Haskins so it is not like they are completely blind to what he brings, but I am more talking about our own coaches and coordinators who *STILL* don't seem like they are confident in doing much on the field besides mimicking Alex Smith's dink and dunk offense.  That isn't how things usually happen when you put in a young QB with completely different physical tools.

 

Granted, it might have been more the game situation than anything else, low-scoring close game with two defenses that weren't going to give up much of anything, so there might have been that extra caution for that game scenario specifically. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

The point about Alex being like Cousins in that we arent used to quality QB play is spot on.

 

It's crazy talk having Allen start next year.  To win a super bowl or pretend we have a QB?

 

I feel victorious in the turnaround on this topic, thank you, Football Team.

 

Its not an easy solution. I didn't think yall were serious about a Montez, some are, yikes.

 

I wish we could clone Alex Smith, but we can't.  So who can we get that anyone sees winning a ring with in next 3-4 years?  Sticking with Stafford.  

I haven’t seen anyone serious about Montez. Just that he’s practice squad viable and it never hurts to see what develops. His Colorado film with NFL Haskins bad, but he could run. So... might be better than Haskins. 
 

If we could get a Stafford for a third and his contract... I’m in. I would not, in any way shape or form give up a 1.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't think you'd agree 😀. 

 

 

[NoCalMike]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I wish we could clone Alex Smith, but we can't.  So who can we get that anyone sees winning a ring with in next 3-4 years?  Sticking with Stafford.  

 

Stafford would be my pick too, followed by Rivers.  But then again what do I know, I wanted Carr a few seasons ago when it seemed like he would split from the Raiders.