The Washington Defensive Line Thread

[Malapropismic Depository]

5 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Kerrigan likely wants to start. He likely also wants to win. on.

 

 If he DID indeed request a trade - and there's no assurance he did, at all - it's more likely due to your former sentence, and not the latter.

Only the former sentence has changed recently, with him not starting/playing full-time this year.

He really hasn't been on a winning team his whole career, for all intents and purposes.

[Dark Acre]

5 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Just pointing out how a quarterback can really change a team's fortune and how a Super Bowl appearance is not necessary to show that.

Joe Gibbs disagrees.  By the time Rypien took over, Gibbs was saying that a QB in Washington is judged by whether he can win the Super Bowl. 

[frontline205]

15 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Wasn't he the one that supposedly had the reported and suspected heart problem ?

I thought that was Jonathan Allen

[Malapropismic Depository]

15 minutes ago, frontline205 said:

I thought that was Jonathan Allen

 

Jon Allen dropped because of concerns of arthritis in his shoulders.

With Sweat, it was indeed his heart.

[PartyPosse]

23 minutes ago, frontline205 said:

I thought that was Jonathan Allen

That was sweat.

[Malapropismic Depository]

Double-post

Edited November 1, 2020 by Malapropismic Depository

[frontline205]

12 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Jon Allen dropped because of concerns of arthritis in his shoulders.

With Sweat, it was indeed his heart.

Sounds like we did really well drafting guys falling down the draft board for the D-Line then. That usually doesn't always work out so thats awesome

[Darrell Green Fan]

16 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Joe Gibbs disagrees.  By the time Rypien took over, Gibbs was saying that a QB in Washington is judged by whether he can win the Super Bowl. 

 

But in that magical season Ryp played like a franchise quarterback, why do posters continue to forget this? When he regressed to who he really was he was no longer of value and he was gone.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Darrell Green Fan

[Dark Acre]

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

But in that magical season Ryp played like a franchise quarterback, why do posters continue to forget this? When he regressed to who he really was he was no longer of value and he was gone.

I think your beginning "but" should be an "and" because you appear to agree with me.  (Actually, you shouldn't begin with either "but" or "and" because they are coordinating conjunctions.)  Watch the 1991 edition of "America's Game".  Both Rypien and Gibbs are explicit -- you won't be long in D.C. if you can't win the SB.  At 5:20 Gibbs says "Let's face it, he's going to be judged here with the Redskins by whether he can win the Super Bowl because that's what other quarterbacks here [Theismann, Williams] have done."  When that magical season (which I think is how narrator Donald Sutherland actually described it) ended and Rypien reverted to form as you note, he was essentially done.  BTW, Sutherland is the perfect narrator for this script.

 

What I would love to see is an analysis of the teams that have managed to create sustained winning (not necessarily a SB win, but expected to be in the fight) over a decade or more (the occasional bad year due to injuries, and such, excepted).  Did they build the team around the QB or did they build the team and then get the QB?  The other thing here is how many bad teams tried to right the ship by drafting that franchise QB and then build the team around him but failed to do so and were battered against the Shoals of Suck?  I'm a build-the-team first guy, but I'm ultimately teleological about the whole thing (i.e., whatever works).

[Darrell Green Fan]

3 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

I think your beginning "but" should be an "and" because you appear to agree with me.  (Actually, you shouldn't begin with either "but" or "and" because they are coordinating conjunctions.)  Watch the 1991 edition of "America's Game".  Both Rypien and Gibbs are explicit -- you won't be long in D.C. if you can't win the SB.  At 5:20 Gibbs says "Let's face it, he's going to be judged here with the Redskins by whether he can win the Super Bowl because that's what other quarterbacks here [Theismann, Williams] have done."  When that magical season (which I think is how narrator Donald Sutherland actually described it) ended and Rypien reverted to form as you note, he was essentially done.  BTW, Sutherland is the perfect narrator for this script.

 

What I would love to see is an analysis of the teams that have managed to create sustained winning (not necessarily a SB win, but expected to be in the fight) over a decade or more (the occasional bad year due to injuries, and such, excepted).  Did they build the team around the QB or did they build the team and then get the QB?  The other thing here is how many bad teams tried to right the ship by drafting that franchise QB and then build the team around him but failed to do so and were battered against the Shoals of Suck?  I'm a build-the-team first guy, but I'm ultimately teleological about the whole thing (i.e., whatever works).

I understand this is a DL thread but I have to respond.

 

You are ignoring the major point here. In 1991 Mark Rypien played like a franchise QB and we saw the results.  He was not some mid-level QB who proved you don't need a good QB to win big, in 1991 he was an excellent QB. Once he reverted to form the team was no longer a contender as he was no longer effective and soon no longer employed by the team. Mark Rypien actually fits my argument, not yours. And that is it's much easier to find long lasting success with a good QB.  Mark Rypien was only a good QB for a year or 2, guys like that are rarely the answer for a team looking for long lasting success. No the teams that are on contention for a decade almost always have good QBs.

 

Now look at teams like Arizona, Cleveland, Cincinatti, SD, and Buffalo.  All were long time losers, SD looked to in for a rebuild post Rivers but despite their record with so many close losses most everyone sees them as trending up. All these teams have found good young QBs and now their projections are entirely different then they have been for years, in some cases decades. 

 

If we could only get a guy like that, I'm not saying you need a Hall of Famer just a good QB, our future would look so much brighter than it does today. Without a QB you have little chance at lasting success unless you are the Ravens and we ain't the Ravens.  If they find themselves in a position to draft one they have to consider it.  

Edited November 2, 2020 by Darrell Green Fan

[Dark Acre]

21 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Mark Rypien actually fits my argument, not yours. And that is it's much easier to find long lasting success with a good QB. 

So then why did Joe Gibbs do it the hard way?

[Darrell Green Fan]

48 minutes ago, GothSkinsFan said:

So then why did Joe Gibbs do it the hard way?

 

1.  That was at a different time, the QB position is much more important today but it's always been important.  But it's much more important in today's game. 

 

2. Make no mistake Joe Theisman and Doug Williams were in fact franchise QBs

 

3. He got lucky that Rypien played like a franchise QB for a year.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

Now please address my examples above, all 5 of those teams have totally changed their future prospects because they found a good QB.

[carex]

53 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

1.  That was at a different time, the QB position is much more important today but it's always been important.  But it's much more important in today's game. 

 

2. Make no mistake Joe Theisman and Doug Williams were in fact franchise QBs

 

3. He got lucky that Rypien played like a franchise QB for a year.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

Now please address my examples above, all 5 of those teams have totally changed their future prospects because they found a good QB.

 

Rypien got us to the playoffs the year before too, and I swear I remember reading the year after the Super Bowl he had an undiagnosed bicep injury that affected his throws

[Darrell Green Fan]

14 hours ago, carex said:

 

Rypien got us to the playoffs the year before too, and I swear I remember reading the year after the Super Bowl he had an undiagnosed bicep injury that affected his throws

Yep Ryp got them to the playoffs the years before and after that SB win. But he wasn't playing as well and that was a big reason they failed to advance. 

 

We should probably get back on topic as nobody seems to want to address my point about Cleveland, Arizona, Cincinatti, Buffalo and San Diego.  

[Anselmheifer]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Yep Ryp got them to the playoffs the years before and after that SB win. But he wasn't playing as well and that was a big reason they failed to advance. 

 

We should probably get back on topic as nobody seems to want to address my point about Cleveland, Arizona, Cincinatti, Buffalo and San Diego.  

Finding a QB does change everything. If we had a QB we’d be one of the bright, talented young teams of the NFL. Especially if our QB was in a rookie contract 

[Warhead36]

The totality of Theismann, Williams, and Rypien were in essence a franchise QB. Multiple Pro Bowls and an MVP. We just had it divvied up between three guys. We still got franchise QB caliber play for the Gibbs I era.

[Dark Acre]

19 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

1.  That was at a different time, the QB position is much more important today but it's always been important.  But it's much more important in today's game. 

 

2. Make no mistake Joe Theisman and Doug Williams were in fact franchise QBs

 

3. He got lucky that Rypien played like a franchise QB for a year.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

Now please address my examples above, all 5 of those teams have totally changed their future prospects because they found a good QB.

I did address your examples (rhetorically).  I asked if you wanted to review the 20 year histories of those teams and the franchise QBs they thought they had found at the time (just as you are taking a snapshot at this moment).  You passed.  Here, you can check out each team and their QB going back to, wait for it, 1922!  (It was the APFA for the 2 years before it.) https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/  Indeed, NFL history is littered with guys who after 1 or 2 good years turned out not to be the franchise QB many thought he would be.  Are you so confident that each of these guys is going to be in the Super Bowl "conversation" for the next 10 years?  How do you know?

 

Joe Theismann was such a franchise QB that he didn't start until 1978 -- his 5th year in the NFL and he had a couple of years playing in the CFL (huge mistake) before that.  From 1977 through 1981 the Team did not make the paloffs.  And aside from John Riggins, who was occasionally hurt and usually misused, there was nothing in the skill position cupboard.  Even in 1979, when we had a good 10-6 team but lost in that soul-crushing (and TV screen smashing) defeat to Dallas, with Riggins running for 1,153 yards (which was very good), our run O was 12th and our pass O was 22nd.  Who was Joey-T throwing to?  Danny Buggs was #1 with 46 catches.  46, on a 10-6 team.  The next 2 highest receiving totals were Clarence Harmon (a 3rd down RB) and John Riggins.  The next WR on the list is John McDaniel at #5 with 25.  Do you even know who John McDaniel is?  I don't even think Topps made a card for him.  The mediocre OL was Hermeling, Saul, Kuziel, Williams, and Stark -- 3 of those guys were over 30.  The reason the team was 10-6 and on the verge of 11-5 is we had the fewest turnovers and were 2nd in the league in forcing them.  Counting on luck/that's-the-way-the-ball-bounces is not a long-term strategy.  Joe Theismann didn't have success until he had a team to succeed with.  Hell, even HOF QB Sonny Jurgensen's best year in D.C. (1967 - 3,747 yards in a 14-game season), Team went 5-6-3, and the best Team of the Sonny starting years was 1969 at 7-5-2 (3,102 yards).  SONNY was a franchise QB and the Team was mediocre.  Look up his stats as a Team starter. 

 

Doug Williams was NOT a franchise QB.  He was a good QB who had one of the best OLs of all time which opened holes big enough for pickup trucks to drive through (so said Jeff Bostic, not inaccurately), the best WR trio of all time, etc....

 

Rypien got lucky that he played lights-out in 1991 because he'd have been gone after that otherwise.  Somehow, Rypien transformed himself that one year into the perfect QB for that team - he was a pretty smart QB, his teammates really liked him and he totally supported them, and he could throw the bomb with uncanny accuracy (that, to me, is my most important criterion -- can the QB put the pickle in the pickle barrel at his will?

 

Losing culture begets losing culture until you've wandered the wilderness for 40 years.  Sucking begets sucking.  Build a competitive team such that even if it's 8-8, it's a team that you have to go all-in against to beat.  That means a competitive, if limited, QB, which is easy to find.  Basically, eliminate the losing mentality.  Then find your franchise QB -- OR -- (as Gibbs did), build a great team that a good QB or a mediocre QB with a hot year can take to the Super Bowl.

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by GothSkinsFan

[Darrell Green Fan]

2 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

I did address your examples (rhetorically).  I asked if you wanted to review the 20 year histories of those teams and the franchise QBs they thought they had found at the time (just as you are taking a snapshot at this moment).  You passed.  Here, you can check out each team and their QB going back to, wait for it, 1922!  (It was the APFA for the 2 years before it.) https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/  Indeed, NFL history is littered with guys who after 1 or 2 good years turned out not to be the franchise QB many thought he would be.  Are you so confident that each of these guys is going to be in the Super Bowl "conversation" for the next 10 years?  How do you know?

 

Joe Theismann was such a franchise QB that he didn't start until 1978 -- his 5th year in the NFL and he had a couple of years playing in the CFL (huge mistake) before that.  From 1977 through 1981 the Team did not make the paloffs.  And aside from John Riggins, who was occasionally hurt and usually misused, there was nothing in the skill position cupboard.  Even in 1979, when we had a good 10-6 team but lost in that soul-crushing (and TV screen smashing) defeat to Dallas, with Riggins running for 1,153 yards (which was very good), our run O was 12th and our pass O was 22nd.  Who was Joey-T throwing to?  Danny Buggs was #1 with 46 catches.  46, on a 10-6 team.  The next 2 highest receiving totals were Clarence Harmon (a 3rd down RB) and John Riggins.  The next WR on the list is John McDaniel at #5 with 25.  Do you even know who John McDaniel is?  I don't even think Topps made a card for him.  The mediocre OL was Hermeling, Saul, Kuziel, Williams, and Stark -- 3 of those guys were over 30.  The reason the team was 10-6 and on the verge of 11-5 is we had the fewest turnovers and were 2nd in the league in forcing them.  Counting on luck/that's-the-way-the-ball-bounces is not a long-term strategy.  Joe Theismann didn't have success until he had a team to succeed with.  Hell, even HOF QB Sonny Jurgensen's best year in D.C. (1967 - 3,747 yards in a 14-game season), Team went 5-6-3, and the best Team of the Sonny starting years was 1969 at 7-5-2 (3,102 yards).  SONNY was a franchise QB and the Team was mediocre.  Look up his stats as a Team starter. 

 

Doug Williams was NOT a franchise QB.  He was a good QB who had one of the best OLs of all time which opened holes big enough for pickup trucks to drive through (so said Jeff Bostic, not inaccurately), the best WR trio of all time, etc....

 

Rypien got lucky that he played lights-out in 1991 because he'd have been gone after that otherwise.  Somehow, Rypien transformed himself that one year into the perfect QB for that team - he was a pretty smart QB, his teammates really liked him and he totally supported them, and he could throw the bomb with uncanny accuracy (that, to me, is my most important criterion -- can the QB put the pickle in the pickle barrel at his will?

 

Losing culture begets losing culture until you've wandered the wilderness for 40 years.  Sucking begets sucking.  Build a competitive team such that even if it's 8-8, it's a team that you have to go all-in against to beat.  That means a competitive, if limited, QB, which is easy to find.  Basically, eliminate the losing mentality.  Then find your franchise QB -- OR -- (as Gibbs did), build a great team that a good QB or a mediocre QB with a hot year can take to the Super Bowl.

 

 

As I said I am done with the topic, it does not belong here and I do not wish to deal with you and your condescending tone.

 

See the 2 posts above yours, they spell it out pretty well and shows I'm hardly alone on the topic. Frankly if you can't see the value of a franchise QB in this league today I have no idea what you are watching.  

Edited November 3, 2020 by Darrell Green Fan

[CommanderDOOM]

More than 1 way to skin a cat. Still, in this NFL you can win the whole thing with just a good qb but you better have  some other dominant spots on your team. With a franchise Qb, he eliminates the other units that have to be dominant. Our DL is an emerging dominant force. Adding to TMac and Gibson is crucial. If we have something in Kyle look out.

[Anselmheifer]

4 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

See the 2 posts above yours, they spell it out pretty well and shows I'm hardly alone on the topic. Frankly if you can't see the value of a franchise QB in this league today I have no idea what you are watching.  

 

👆 This. Because, duh. It's an offensive league and a QB's league and you don't need analytics to see it. You might get lucky one yer without an elite QB, but you aren't going to be great on an annual basis without one. 

[owa]

<deleted>

Edited November 5, 2020 by owa
Shouldn't have been posting when tired. Commented on way too many topics.

[Est.1974]

Expect to see Kerrigan get more reps today. Clearly wanting more playing time, Sweat apparently full go but fresh on the back of that concussion issue. Might just get eased back today.

[Switchgear]

Sweat needs to learn what a hard count is. Unbelievable. The D-line was invisible for 3+ quarters, finally showing up here at the end.

[Warhead36]

Do we have a single sack against a starting OL?

[Renegade7]

Overrated, and I'm not sure what to do about it outside give it time.  Hurts, but they aren't as good as I thought they'd be, no point in panicking, it'll be over soon enough at this rate, then we can see if they are what we thought they'd be in 2021.