Darrell Green Fan Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I'm hoping the WFT draft something other than QB in the first round. The team needs a new offensive coaching staff before it drafts a new QB. The current one is an incompetent product of nepotism and they are not suited to developing a highly drafted prospect. Pretty sure this staff developed Cam into an MVP. You keep saying "this team can't develop QBs". Well first off these are all new people, you can't put previous busts on them. . Next they did develop Kirk from a mid round pick to a servicable starter. But again those were different coaches. Draft the right QB and watch how the script changes immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said: Pretty sure this staff developed Cam into an MVP. You keep saying "this team can't develop QBs". Well first off these are all new people, you can't put previous busts on them. . Next they did develop Kirk from a mid round pick to a servicable starter. But again those were different coaches. Draft the right QB and watch how the script changes immediately. Yeah I don't get how this new regime is getting any kind of a bad rap since their entire time in Carolina was with a perennial MVP candidate QB who had injury problems. I expect more from Mcqueen tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 28 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said: The number of people's heads irrationally exploding over another Ohio State QB is going to be fun to watch. Yeah that would be silly and a somewhat lazy take. Sure, they played in the same system with some really strong supporting casts, but Haskins and Fields are totally different prospects as far as playing QB. Almost opposite ends of the spectrum in many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 Can’t wait to take exhausted narratives from other threads and talk about them as naseum in the best thread on the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method man Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 50 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: I liked Thomas but if I recall when i did my last top 5 ranking, I had Wilis first. Surprised though Thomas has struggled. what’s funny is that Geron slots right in the middle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 This assumes we upgrade O line in FA, first go of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said: Pretty sure this staff developed Cam into an MVP. You keep saying "this team can't develop QBs". Well first off these are all new people, you can't put previous busts on them. . Next they did develop Kirk from a mid round pick to a servicable starter. But again those were different coaches. Draft the right QB and watch how the script changes immediately. No. Marty Hurney and Chudz and Mike Shula and Ken Dorsey aren't here. This is the incompetent staff that benched Cam Newton for Kyle Allen and ran him out of Carolina with his value so diminished that he's currently making the vet minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: No. Marty Hurney and Chudz and Mike Shula and Ken Dorsey aren't here. This is the incompetent staff that benched Cam Newton for Kyle Allen and ran him out of Carolina with his value so diminished that he's currently making the vet minimum. Gettleman did more damage in that respect than anyone brought over from Carolina imo. At the very least Kyle Smith should do a better job building around whoever it is at QB, but I haven't seen anything from this staff that would make me believe they can tailor a system to allow guys like Fields or Lance to produce early in their careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 3 hours ago, KDawg said: Can’t wait to take exhausted narratives from other threads and talk about them as naseum in the best thread on the forum! 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: No. Marty Hurney and Chudz and Mike Shula and Ken Dorsey aren't here. This is the incompetent staff that benched Cam Newton for Kyle Allen and ran him out of Carolina with his value so diminished that he's currently making the vet minimum. 25 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said: Gettleman did more damage in that respect than anyone brought over from Carolina imo. At the very least Kyle Smith should do a better job building around whoever it is at QB, but I haven't seen anything from this staff that would make me believe they can tailor a system to allow guys like Fields or Lance to produce early in their careers. Right on cue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said: Right on cue... Everything is a narrative to those infatuated with their own opinions. Kinda defeats the purpose of a discussion forum imo but to each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said: Everything is a narrative to those infatuated with their own opinions. Kinda defeats the purpose of a discussion forum imo but to each their own. There's other threads to discuss the coaching staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 11 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said: There's other threads to discuss the coaching staff. It was presented in a context that was relevant to this thread. I don't think it's realistic to expect a QB not to be drafted for that reason but it's worth pointing out because tailoring a system to help simplify things for young QBs and at the same time setting them up to be productive early on gives them a big leg up. 2012 comes to mind even though long term success was not achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 Newton got hurt not benched for Kyle. I think we will be more than fine with Kyle Smith picking the QB. Dan should have listened to him in the first place about Haskins without overriding him. The dude that ran Cam Newton out was actually the new coaching staff. And Cam was indeed bitter about it. https://fansided.com/2019/09/18/kyle-allen-likely-start-injured-cam-newton-week-3/ Report: Panthers' Kyle Allen 'Trending Toward' Starting for Injured Cam Newton. Newton, who did not practice Wednesday, suffered an aggravation of a left mid-foot sprain Thursday against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, per Rapoport. The initial injury occurred on Aug. 22 in a preseason game against the New England Patriots. Kyle Allen likely to start for injured Cam Newton in Week 3 https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2020/07/01/ron-rivera-cam-newton Ron Rivera on Cam Newton: ‘Don’t bet against him’ "I really wouldn't." Edit: @KDawg is right. The topic I was responding to belongs more on the Haskins thread. But as for this thread my point is its perfectly fine to debate Qb on this thread. We'd be crazy not to. Almost for sure, its going down. So I am going to look at Qbs without putting my hands up that they are incapable of developing one which IMHO is silly. QB will likely be the hot topic all off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 How this franchise and this coaching staff mishandles its QBs is the elephant in the room of any discussion of first round QB prospects. There is no point in pretending it's not an issue. I'm certainly not going to bury my head in the sand about it. I don't have any faith in this current staff to handle a QB prospect, sure as **** not one read and run prospects like Fields and Lance. I need to see some changes before I can accept that it's not an obviously terrible idea for the team to draft a QB round one--either major improvement in the performance of the staff over the next 11 games, or personnel changes in the front office and offensive coaching staff itself. I also have zero reason to blindly trust that Kyle Smith will get everything fixed. He has no track record of successfully drafting and developing the position and he has no real power to force anything to happen on the roster, much less force the coaching staff to make changes to the way they handle the QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I also have zero reason to blindly trust that Kyle Smith will get everything fixed. He has no track record of successfully drafting and developing the position and he has no real power to force anything to happen on the roster, much less force the coaching staff to make changes to the way they handle the QBs. I agree on this. I’m not even convinced he will last long under Rivera’s tenure. I’m not quite as hot on him as others are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said: I agree on this. I’m not even convinced he will last long under Rivera’s tenure. I’m not quite as hot on him as others are. He's A blank slate. He basically has no record at picking QBs. I have no idea if he is any good at evaluating the position at all, much less formulating a plan for how to support and develop it. I don't know that he'll get fired, why would Ron bother to do that after all? He has no power over the coaching staff and why would Ron want to give up power and invite the team to hire a real GM by firing Smith? We're clearly hoping Smith will grow into the GM job over time, but since we're starting at square one of a rebuild and our coach is very sick, a trainee GM is something we can't afford. We needed to hire a real one before we hired our coach. We need to hire one today. But now that process is going to be very messy if it actually haooens because, in all likelihood, it's going to have to be conducted against Ron's wishes and above his head because it will strip him of power he's already been able to enjoy. Either that or we just end up with another neutered GM who isn't a real improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 33 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: How this franchise and this coaching staff mishandles its QBs is the elephant in the room of any discussion of first round QB prospects. There is no point in pretending it's not an issue. I'm certainly not going to bury my head in the sand about it. I don't think you should bury your head in the sand or have a different opinion than you do. You are obviously perfectly right to feel about it anyway you like. But some others have a different opinion. I have agreed with you on a lot of prospects and love reading your takes. Great stuff. I can tell Haskins is a hot button position on the board. But its nothing personal to me. It shouldn't be. He's just a player like any other. Personally (and I am far from the only one including on this draft thread) I saw Haskins as a yawn prospect, "meh". I hoped I was wrong. Heck I still might be wrong, will see. But, it doesn't bother me one whit that they aren't in love with the dude. It makes all the sense in the world to me. I actually like the idea that they are moving on from him potentially let alone bothered by it. But that's just my opinion, some here share that, some here don't. Cool either way. Different strokes. Regardless of all that, I think almost for sure Qb is going down in the off season whether we want them to or not. I personally want them to take a QB if the right one falls. So I am ultimately going to dive as hard into that position as I did last year with WR and TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said: I personally want them to take a QB if the right one falls. You really want to give another QB to this coaching staff? I could maybe hold my nose about our history at drafting and developing the position if Ron made wholesale changes to the offensive side of the staff. Even with my misgivings about the front office structure. The deck would still be stacked against the QB prospect we pick in that scenario, make no mistake. But with this current staff in place? They are putrid. The prospect would have zero chance. If you don't have a QB, then you don't have a foundation to rebuild. But I have zero faith in the current fo/coaching staff structure. I would rather see the team halt the rebuild and punt on the QB position until they get competent offensive coaches in the building and hire a good GM with roster building power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 23 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: You really want to give another QB to this coaching staff? I could maybe hold my nose about our history at drafting and developing the position if Ron made wholesale changes to the offensive side of the staff. Even with my misgivings about the front office structure. The deck would still be stacked against the QB prospect we pick in that scenario, make no mistake. But with this current staff in place? They are putrid. The prospect would have zero chance. If you don't have a QB, then you don't have a foundation to rebuild. But I have zero faith in the current fo/coaching staff structure. I would rather see the team halt the rebuild and punt on the QB position until they get competent offensive coaches in the building and hire a good GM with roster building power. I got some concerns about Scott Turner. Will see about him. Zampese is supposed to be a QB guru. I do have a lot of faith in Kyle Smith. I've liked his drafts for the most part. And he's a smart ambitious guy. Every GM had to start somewhere, I am not a they had to have the full role first in that same exact spot otherwise i am not hiring that guy kind of dude. Talent to me trumps experience. The impression I get from some who talked about what they've heard. Ron relies on Kyle to judge players in the off season both in the draft and personnel. It's somewhat like the John Schneider-Pete Carroll arrangment. Carroll has final say but he isn't the defacto GM -- he lets Scheinder grade the off season targets, etc. Different scene than Shanny. Shanny supposedly here did his own grades and was the defacto head of personnel. I do think when you draft a mega talented guy with mega talented intangibles at the Qb spot. I do think they can hit the ground running at least to an extent where you see the flashes especially if they have the intangibles. So yeah I know you see it differently but for me if for example Lawrence or Fields are all that their reputation is cracked up to be both on the field and off the field then yes they'd be a hit here. I don't think they'd hit their potential right away if they don't add 2 O lineman, a TE and Z receiver though. but yeah I got zero worry that we'd draft a mega talented QB and they'd fail here. I might have concerns about a project type QB. The mystery to me is how active is Zampese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 I think if Lawrence or Fields are there, you take them and don't look back. Personally, after watching JT OSullivans film break down, he looks legitimate. I do want to see an analysis of his shortcomings too. I'll watch more on Lawrence too, although, right now I like Fields better. We shall see how things develop over the next 6 mos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: The mystery to me is how active is Zampese. Seeing how our players have played, we can safely assume there are no gurus on this staff. And Zampese is not a play caller and play calling is one of our biggest problems. He lost his locker room super fast when he was calling plays for the Bengals, to the point where guys like AJ Green went to Marvin Lewis to complain about him and got him fired. I'm not sure he's a good coach like we've assumed. There are no sure thing QB prospects and we could absolutely ruin another blue chipper prospect. They have to receive a tremendous amount of support to develop. Their coaching staffs need to be good. Their front offices need to be good. Their teams need to be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 I’m so tired of this debate, guys. Can we leave this thread for talk about prospects, please? If you want to argue about Turner, there’s a thread. I may jump in and agree. Rivera? There’s a thread. Kyle? There’s a thread. Dwayne? There’s a thread. This is my favorite thread on the forum and I don’t want to talk about the negative non sense. I want to talk to all of you about prospect evaluation. Something all of us have enjoyed. But can we leave the repeated narratives to the other threads? Please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 17 minutes ago, KDawg said: I’m so tired of this debate, guys. Can we leave this thread for talk about prospects, please? If you want to argue about Turner, there’s a thread. I may jump in and agree. Rivera? There’s a thread. Kyle? There’s a thread. Dwayne? There’s a thread. This is my favorite thread on the forum and I don’t want to talk about the negative non sense. I want to talk to all of you about prospect evaluation. Something all of us have enjoyed. But can we leave the repeated narratives to the other threads? Please? 1000% Agree. I said the exact same thing last night--and got the standard "I'm gonna talk about what I want to talk about" response. I want to discuss possible draft picks--learn about lesser known prospects, and hear from people who know more and are better analyzing players than I am. Development is on the coaching staff--and therefore any discussion about development and the coaching staff belongs in the other various coaching staff threads. That's what they're there for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 47 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said: I think if Lawrence or Fields are there, you take them and don't look back. Personally, after watching JT OSullivans film break down, he looks legitimate. I do want to see an analysis of his shortcomings too. I'll watch more on Lawrence too, although, right now I like Fields better. We shall see how things develop over the next 6 mos. I just watched that breakdown of Fields by O'Sullivan and thought it was very good. He was impressed. He noted a couple of times how Fields had all day to throw, but that it didn't diminish what the play, reads, and skills showed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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