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Kyler Murray knew if pressure was coming, it was coming from Bosa most likely, you can see it in those plays. Arik Armstead is a good player but hes kind of a big drop-off from Bosa and hes the only other one on the line that gets decent pressure. Buckner was a big loss for them.

 

Hes not really going to know where it's coming from us. 

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1 hour ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Kyler Murray knew if pressure was coming, it was coming from Bosa most likely, you can see it in those plays. Arik Armstead is a good player but hes kind of a big drop-off from Bosa and hes the only other one on the line that gets decent pressure. Buckner was a big loss for them.

 

Hes not really going to know where it's coming from us. 

Don’t forget Javon Kinlaw tho.  If they had to replace Buckner I think they did a good job with that pick.

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This is a pretty good video. It's every play from Chase Young. It's long - about an hour. But really shows his talent.  It also showed some other guys doing well - Tim Settle in particular. I swear that guy starts on any other team. 

 

He highlighted the play I liked most - when he saw a swing pass pass developing and got off Peters and chased the play down from behind. Crazy awareness. As Rico calls it - it's a very high IQ play. 

 

 

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I was just listening to Cooley's commentary on Young after watching the game over.  He thinks he's an ALL Pro already.

 

He made a similar comment to my observation which was cool for me to hear because it was thought more than any that made me fall hard for the dude early last season.  That is, the dude is just so disruptive play after play.  If you watch our other D lineman, that's not the case.  Chase is in another category.  That's what took me about Chase, too.  I spent a couple of off seasons re-watching our D line a lot, posted many clips on different threads while doing it, and I liked our guys but they would pretty much all dissappear for stretches in that game.  They were opportunistic but not really constantly disruptive.  Watching Chase, took me to another place, the dude was an animal pretty much the whole game, he hwas a handful on  play after play after play.  That's not Kerrigan, or Jonathan Allen, etc -- those are good players but they are wrecking balls.  Chase is a wrecking ball.

 

 

 

 

 

On 9/16/2020 at 4:21 PM, wit33 said:


Right. Most of the fan base was on the extreme and with dropping pass rushers in coverage, but it’s a great move with the right personnel, situation, and play call. I like the call because he occupied the RT while covering the RB and that was leveraged by the call with a blitz up the middle. Sprinkling it in is a great move. Sweat can as well. Sweat in the 3-4 and covering may help in the future when wanting to do some exotic stuff that’s asks him to be in coverage. 

 

I wasn't a Manusky guy to say the least.  But all the hits on him from some (especially on twitter and some beat guys) being a fool for dropping people into coverage I found strange.  The whole idea of running a 3-4 is in part to have a guy drop in coverage.  That's part of the confusion to an offense of a 3-4.  You don't rush 5 guys on every play.  Part of the point of a 3-4 is one dude often peels off into coverage and keeps the offense guessing.  

 

To me the indictment on Manusky was hearing (I think it was Keim if I recall) that they were blown away by Gregg Williams D line and how they used stunts and some exotic stuff to get pressure when they played them that season so they deided at the end of the season to copy that stuff.  Ironically some of that did work.  Some might recall (I posted some clips) at the end of the season especially versus Dallas they showed some funky formations on the D line. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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On 9/16/2020 at 1:33 PM, Califan007 said:

 

Definitely agree with that. Just don't agree with rooting for losses from day one. There's a point where a winning record is more or less out the window so being fine with losses for (like you said) that one specific player is more than reasonable.

 

I agree but don't recall anyone rooting for losses from day 1.

On 9/16/2020 at 1:33 PM, Califan007 said:

 

 

I will say, though, that if we still had Gruden, Manusky, and Bruce here and only had Kerrigan, Ioannidis, and Settle, a very real part of me would feel as if Chase Young's talent would be wasted on this team and it may have been better to trade down. 

 

Not me.  I get the point.  And I was no Manusky fan.  But on the D line beasts play like beasts.  Man versus man.   Chase is just better than the dude in front of him.   Even with Manusky IMO that would bear out.  Kerrigan has typically gotten double digit sacks even with the medicore D coordinators that we've arguably had all the way back to Haz.  Our other D lineman IMO are good but they aren't Chase Young level talent.  He's a peg better.    Bad coached teams can have elite players.  I agree its harder to do.  But Chase's talent is so transcedent that lol I think he would have overcomed Manusky. 

 

This team IMO has been desperate to have an elite player or two.  I wouldn't trade down and add potentally multiple good players, instead.   We aren't bad at finding good players.  But there is a reason why is so rare to find a Redskin or WFT in these top 100 lists of best players in the league, let alone top 25.  We don't have rock star players.   It's very rare for us to get an elite talent.  So when we have a shot at one, don't pass it up.  

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Manusky’s issues were evident. His dropping guys into coverage in and of itself wasn’t the real problem. It was who, when and how. There was predictability to it. Which eliminates the reason for running an odd front. 
 

He also had other issues that stemmed from organizational failures. 
 

 

Edited by KDawg
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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree but don't recall anyone rooting for losses from day 1.

 

Not me.  I get the point.  And I was no Manusky fan.  But on the D line beasts play like beasts.  Man versus man.   Chase is just better than the dude in front of him.   Even with Manusky IMO that would bear out.  Kerrigan has typically gotten double digit sacks even with the medicore D coordinators that we've arguably had all the way back to Haz.  Our other D lineman IMO are good but they aren't Chase Young level talent.  He's a peg better.    Bad teams can have elite players.  

 

This team IMO has been desperate to have an elite player or two.  I wouldn't trade down and add potentally good players.   We find good players.  But there is a reason why is so rare to find a Redskin in these top 100 lists of best players in the league, let alone top 25.  We don't have rock star players.   It's very rare for us to get an elite talent.  So when we have a shot at one, don't pass it up.  

 

 

 

1)_ I definitely do..."lame duck" coach, "best thing" was for the team to do what the Browns did a few years before, "Tank for Tua" started up before the 2019 draft--was another reason some didn't want us to draft Haskins...

 

2) DE on a 4-3 with Del Rio as coach vs OLB on a 3-4 with Manusky as coach is a huge difference in my eyes. I don't just want an elite player who can overcome coaching flaws and scheme fit...I want an elite player who has coaches that know exactly the best way to maximize their talent and a scheme that's a good fit for them. I don't have any faith that Manusky would have fit that second category. Plus the culture of the team now will definitely benefit Young FAR more than the culture that existed prior to Rivera's arrival.

Edited by Califan007
KDawg pointed out my mistake...damn him.
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7 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

 

1)_ I definitely do..."lame duck" coach, "best thing" was for the team to do what the Browns did a few years before, "Tank for Tua" started up before the 2019 draft--was another reason some didn't want us to draft Haskins...

 

2) DE on a 4-3 with Del Rio ac coach vs DE on a 3-4 with Manusky as coach is a huge difference in my eyes. I don't just want an elite player who can overcome coaching flaws and scheme fit...I want an elite player who has coaches that know exactly the best way to maximize their talent and a scheme that's a good fit for them. I don't have any faith that Manusky would have fit that second category.

 

The season did go south fast so people checked out early.  I know I did but I didn't right from the jump.  But you are right I forgot about the Jay haters. 

 

Even though running with your point for argument's sake, eventually coaches change, i think this is the last team that should pass on elite talent, especially a pass rusher.  Who was the last dominant pass rusher we've had?  Dexter Manley.  Harvey for spells?  We got to go way back.  And I like Kerrigan more than most here but I never saw him as elite or even scratching the surface of elite.  

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

@Califan007

 

A 3-4 DE is more of a DT. The OLBs are the ends. So a 3-4 rush from an OLB is similar to a 4-3 rush from a DE. I think you’re fully aware of that but wanted to make sure based on that one line in your reply.

 

@Skinsinparadise I wish people understood how bad our LBs were/have been. Been trying to say it for years now. 

 

It's my crazy time at work, so I don't have time until Nov to rewatch the game with coaches film but I'll get to it then.  It's amazing how much more you can see by rewatching,  I'll get to it and watch the LBs eventually but for now I'll take your word for it.  I don't always agree with Cooley but I often do.  He isn't enamored with the LBs.  Interesting that both he and PFF converge on Sean Dion Hamilton it seems as to his play last week.   PFF if I recall gave him a 25.  That's abysmal. 

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2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

@Califan007

 

A 3-4 DE is more of a DT. The OLBs are the ends. So a 3-4 rush from an OLB is similar to a 4-3 rush from a DE. I think you’re fully aware of that but wanted to make sure based on that one line in your reply.

 

@Skinsinparadise I wish people understood how bad our LBs were/have been. Been trying to say it for years now. 

 

yeah, I'm aware lol...I was indeed meaning an OLB in 3-4 (thanks for the correction)...and I do think an OLB in a 3-4 a huge difference than a DE in 4-3.

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There’s definitely differences in the total skill set wanted in them. But when you’re a 3-4 OLB edge rushing or a 4-3 end edge rushing things are pretty similar. 
 

Some intricacies... two way go? Spill? Force? 
 

But once pass is read it’s generally the same job.

 

Down to down its different.

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53 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The season did go south fast so people checked out early.  I know I did but I didn't right from the jump.  But you are right I forgot about the Jay haters. 

 

Even though running with your point for argument's sake, eventually coaches change, i think this is the last team that should pass on elite talent, especially a pass rusher.  Who was the last dominant pass rusher we've had?  Dexter Manley.  Harvey for spells?  We got to go way back.  And I like Kerrigan more than most here but I never saw him as elite or even scratching the surface of elite.  

 

 

Kerrigan may have been far closer to elite during his time here if paired with the right coach and scheme, though. It's hard to say, though, how much this change has helped (or will possibly help) RK due to simultaneously having much better talent surrounding him on the DLine. In general I do agree with you about never passing up elite talent for more talent, but with the Bruce/Gruden/Manusky trifecta of mediocrity at the helm, I'm thinking the best way to make the team consistently better may have been to have a stronger foundation of talent--a team of 7's and 8's instead of a team with a 10 and a bunch of 6's (so to speak). And can't help but wonder if Chase would be eager to bolt to a contender when his time for FA comes up...which was a real possibility in the past. And if I really wanna break out the tin foil hattery (lol), our old training staff probably would have resulted in Young being listed on the injury report more than he should have been. Now, in reality I don't really believe that lol...but this franchise was so snake-bitten before than it still wouldn't have surprised me.

 

 

35 minutes ago, KDawg said:

There’s definitely differences in the total skill set wanted in them. But when you’re a 3-4 OLB edge rushing or a 4-3 end edge rushing things are pretty similar. 
 

Some intricacies... two way go? Spill? Force? 
 

But once pass is read it’s generally the same job.

 

Down to down its different.

 

 

Putting RK in pass coverage always made me cringe lol...OLBs get put in pass coverage far more than 4-3 DEs. Maybe I'm wrong there. And not sure what his weight was when drafted but I also felt as if he was heavier than many OLBs. I do know that part of my perception was based on Kerrigan being described as "having a motor" and never giving up as opposed to being described as "athletic" which I guess I feel OLBs need to be in order to start heading to the level of elite.

Edited by Califan007
I hate stupid typs--er, typos...
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Question for the football junkies here.

 

i saw somewhere that The AZ QB has been sacked 50 times from the beginning of last year. I found that surprisingly high for someone with his athleticism. My question is (3) part.

 

First is it because he can’t see over his lineman to get the ball out when he is under pressure while in the pocket?

 

if his height is an issue does AZ pass block in a way to move DL to certain areas to open a window he can view his WR’s location?

 

if the above is what they do, could a defense figure out where the pass is going based on how the O-line is blocking on that play? Essentially could Th Defense figure out which half of the field the pass is likely heading.

 

🍻

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1 minute ago, A-Lost-Wolf said:

if the above is what they do, could a defense figure out where the pass is going based on how the O-line is blocking on that play? Essentially could Th Defense figure out which half of the field the pass is likely heading.

 

Yes, the side DeAndre Hopkins is on

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1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

Kerrigan may have been far closer to elite during his time here if paired with the right coach and scheme, though. It's hard to say, though, how much this change has helped (or will possibly help) RK due to simultaneously having much better talent surrounding him on the DLine. In general I do agree with you about never passing up elite talent for more talent, but with the Bruce/Gruden/Manusky trifecta of mediocrity at the helm, I'm thinking the best way to make the team consistently better may have been to have a stronger foundation of talent--a team of 7's and 8's instead of a team with a 10 and a bunch of 6's (so to speak). And can't help but wonder if Chase would be eager to bolt to a contender when his time for FA comes up...which was a real possibility in the past. And if I really wanna break out the tin foil hattery (lol), our old training staff probably would have resulted in Young being listed on the injury report more than he should have been. Now, in reality I don't really believe that lol...but this franchise was so snake-bitten before than it still wouldn't have surprised me.

 

I agree with the premise the better coaches bring out the best out of players.  But at the same time, some dudes are just freaks when it comes to talent and some aren't.  Personally I don't think so as for Kerrigan.  Kerrigan to me is a try hard, often bull rush type of pass rusher who is smart and takes advantage when he can.  He has good skills but not elite skills.   Chase is a freak.  A guy like Aaron Donald is a freak.  Good coach, bad coach or whatever -- Donald is so slippery and strong, and just knows how to beat the dude in front of him.  Chase, ditto. 

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I don't think our LBers are as bad as they played last week. Same with the offense. We basically had nothing going on, but our Dline being over the top good and aggressive and our DBs being able to take advantage. Once our coverage shifted from under zones and 1 single high, to more man coverage, the game changed for us.

 

A lot of teams, especially newer ones like us, will need time for some muscle memory to take over and allow instincts and athleticism to take over.

 

KPL was awful. SDH was awful and that's my biggest disappointment.

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7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't think our LBers are as bad as they played last week. Same with the offense. We basically had nothing going on, but our Dline being over the top good and aggressive and our DBs being able to take advantage. Once our coverage shifted from under zones and 1 single high, to more man coverage, the game changed for us.

 

A lot of teams, especially newer ones like us, will need time for some muscle memory to take over and allow instincts and athleticism to take over.

 

KPL was awful. SDH was awful and that's my biggest disappointment.

 

I'm hoping you're right about our LBs not being as bad as it seemed or as they were graded. I posted the below in the 4-3 thread and it really stuck out to me just how much worse SDH and KPL's PFF ratings were than last season, especially in coverage...both of whom had as their main strength previously. So I'm just praying that it's an anomaly and will work itself out once guys are more comfortable in the scheme. 

 

SDH coverage grade last season: 89.7

SDH coverage grade Sunday: 27.2 (YIKES...usually a dude would have to be literally playing on a broken leg to be that bad)

 

KPL coverage grade last season: 91.0

KPL coverage grade Sunday: 59.4

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6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm hoping you're right about our LBs not being as bad as it seemed or as they were graded. I posted the below in the 4-3 thread and it really stuck out to me just how much worse SDH and KPL's PFF ratings were than last season, especially in coverage...both of whom had as their main strength previously. So I'm just praying that it's an anomaly and will work itself out once guys are more comfortable in the scheme. 

 

SDH coverage grade last season: 89.7

SDH coverage grade Sunday: 27.2 (YIKES...usually a dude would have to be literally playing on a broken leg to be that bad)

 

KPL coverage grade last season: 91.0

KPL coverage grade Sunday: 59.4

I hope I'm right too. :ols:

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44 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm hoping you're right about our LBs not being as bad as it seemed or as they were graded. I posted the below in the 4-3 thread and it really stuck out to me just how much worse SDH and KPL's PFF ratings were than last season, especially in coverage...both of whom had as their main strength previously. So I'm just praying that it's an anomaly and will work itself out once guys are more comfortable in the scheme. 

 

SDH coverage grade last season: 89.7

SDH coverage grade Sunday: 27.2 (YIKES...usually a dude would have to be literally playing on a broken leg to be that bad)

 

KPL coverage grade last season: 91.0

KPL coverage grade Sunday: 59.4


My guess with the Eagles speed at Wr (more help over the top) coupled with elite talent at TE   (Plays being schemed up for them) “grading well” was going to be a difficult task. In some cases it’s more about containment versus stopping them or grading well. One can argue Goedert wasn’t contained well, but solid adjustments were made to point those guys weren’t able to take over the game, same goes for receiving backs and receivers in the short and intermediate areas (where backers primarily operate). 

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11 minutes ago, wit33 said:


My guess with the Eagles speed at Wr (more help over the top) coupled with elite talent at TE   (Plays being schemed up for them) “grading well” was going to be a difficult task. In some cases it’s more about containment versus stopping them or grading well. One can argue Goedert wasn’t contained well, but solid adjustments were made to point those guys weren’t able to take over the game, same goes for receiving backs and receivers in the short and intermediate areas (where backers primarily operate). 

 

Yeah, fair point. The Eagles are basically completely built to gash teams in the way they gashed us at first...take the top off with speed while hitting lots of underneath/seam routes to their top tier TEs. I'll withhold too much criticism of our LBs in coverage until we can get a bigger sample size. 

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