Riggo#44 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 38 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said: The truth of the matter is, we draft Chase and not only do you have the "best prospect in years" but you pair him with a very high-end pass rusher in Sweat, backed up by a veteran in Kerrigan and 3 high-end interior DL in Allen, Payne and Ionidis (not to mention quality rotation pieces Anderson and Settle) ... this defensive front 4, at least on paper, is probably #1 or #2 depending on how you view the SF DL. Although the Niners are going to have a harder time keeping their nucleus together with Armstead a FA this year and Dee Ford a FA next year. For people that worry about the secondary, the 2007 Giants secondary consisted of Gibril WIlson, Corey Webster, Aaron Ross, and Sam Madison's last year in the league. They looked great because they had Osi, Tuck, Strahan, et al up front, harassing the **** out of QBs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said: For people that worry about the secondary, the 2007 Giants secondary consisted of Gibril WIlson, Corey Webster, Aaron Ross, and Sam Madison's last year in the league. They looked great because they had Osi, Tuck, Strahan, et al up front, harassing the **** out of QBs. I still think you have to upgrade the secondary... not to say you're suggesting we go into the season with Fabian, Stroman and Moreland or anything. I think we also need to look at the type of FS / CB we have, and go after. I want ball hawks, because if the plan is put in place, there are going to be chances. Norman made his money in Carolina as a Zone CB with a plus pass rush in front of him. Shurman did the same in Seattle, and continued some of that success this year in SF. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Just now, OVCChairman said: I still think you have to upgrade the secondary... not to say you're suggesting we go into the season with Fabian, Stroman and Moreland or anything. I think we also need to look at the type of FS / CB we have, and go after. I want ball hawks, because if the plan is put in place, there are going to be chances. Norman made his money in Carolina as a Zone CB with a plus pass rush in front of him. Shurman did the same in Seattle, and continued some of that success this year in SF. Yes, I think they sign Bradbury, maybe a FS. Trade Dunbar. Hell, I am not so sure our talent in the secondary was the main issue--their communication was atrocious, according to JDR. That screams of bad coaching. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Riggo#44 said: Yes, I think they sign Bradbury, maybe a FS. Trade Dunbar. Hell, I am not so sure our talent in the secondary was the main issue--their communication was atrocious, according to JDR. That screams of bad coaching. Couldnt agree more. I feel we were playing with 3 levels of defense. D-line / LB / Secondary. They were not working as 1 unit. Going forward, I think we have some good young talent back there. I want to see Stroman continue to develop, I think he's got the speed, and the want to. He's never going to be a thumper, or a shut down guy, but I think he's got the nose for the ball, and some serious ball skills. Moreland was a fan favorite, and Fabian did look A LOT better when he moved outside... I like the idea of getting Bradberry, as well as Boston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, OVCChairman said: Couldnt agree more. I feel we were playing with 3 levels of defense. D-line / LB / Secondary. They were not working as 1 unit. Going forward, I think we have some good young talent back there. I want to see Stroman continue to develop, I think he's got the speed, and the want to. He's never going to be a thumper, or a shut down guy, but I think he's got the nose for the ball, and some serious ball skills. Moreland was a fan favorite, and Fabian did look A LOT better when he moved outside... I like the idea of getting Bradberry, as well as Boston. I like Fabian Moreau. He was the "reason" Boob Allen traded Fuller (albeit very foolishly). I think with a good scheme (basically anything better than the combination of Barry and Manusky come up with) he could be good. I want to see the athletic talents of Payne, Allen, Sweat, Young, Ionniadis put to good use for a change. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, OVCChairman said: I still think you have to upgrade the secondary... not to say you're suggesting we go into the season with Fabian, Stroman and Moreland or anything. I think we also need to look at the type of FS / CB we have, and go after. I want ball hawks, because if the plan is put in place, there are going to be chances. Couple things, Jimmy Moreland was an absolute ballhawk at JMU. His teammate, Rashad Robinson is likely an UDFA in this class. Would be nice to see the Skins bring him in, because I believe Robinson passed Moreland this past season for career interceptions at JMU. He was also FCS All-American, like Moreland. But hasn't quite gotten the buzz Moreland had coming out last year. Actually, I just went back to the spring and looked and Robinson was WalterFootball's CB13 for the 2020 class, but he seems to have fallen completely off their rankings as he doesn't appear in their Top 43 CBs for the 2020 class. Which is odd, since Robinson led a dominant JMU defense to the title game this year and was an All-American. Not like he disappeared between then and now. He's small-ish ... 5'10 and 188 ... but profiles similarly to Moreland. Just a name to put out there to follow in the later rounds. Def. a developmental guy. I know we need impacts, and fewer Moreland-esque projects. Edited February 20, 2020 by JamesMadisonSkins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said: Couple things, Jimmy Moreland was an absolute ballhawk at JMU. His teammate, Rashard Robinson is likely an UDFA in this class. Would be nice to see the Skins bring him in, because I believe Robinson passed Moreland this past season for career interceptions at JMU. He was also FCS All-American, like Moreland. But hasn't quite gotten the buzz Moreland had coming out last year. Yeah I responded a couple posts later that talent wasn't the biggest issue we had back there. I like Moreland, Stroman, and Moreau... but I don't know that I want any one of them matched up against the upper tier of WR in the NFL.... at least I haven't seen enough to be comfortable with it. All of them have shown talent, and the secondary got markedly better with Norman on the bench and Moreland / Moreau getting more snaps... but still room for improvement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 1 minute ago, OVCChairman said: Yeah I responded a couple posts later that talent wasn't the biggest issue we had back there. I like Moreland, Stroman, and Moreau... but I don't know that I want any one of them matched up against the upper tier of WR in the NFL.... at least I haven't seen enough to be comfortable with it. All of them have shown talent, and the secondary got markedly better with Norman on the bench and Moreland / Moreau getting more snaps... but still room for improvement. Yep. We have a very young core of CBs now that Norman is off the roster. And if we are going to trade Dunbar, which I can't really see any other way at this point that we don't go that route, it'll be even younger. Even bringing in Bradberry. I think there's going to be a lot of opportunity for the crop of players on this roster to play themselves into more significant roles, too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 But I think the point in this thread is ... draft Chase Young at #2 and your pass-rush/Front 4 is so dominant (and deep) that you can mask the youth/inexperience in the secondary. And I think we gotta remember ... we are adding a top tier FA CB and I think it's likely Bradberry. So even if you trade Dunbar for a draft pick, your depth with Bradberry is ... Bradberr, Moreau, Moreland, Johnson ... certainly young and not al that proven, but it could certainly be worse. I like the idea of adding a couple rookies in that scenario, but the point is, you can afford to let some young guys play it out with that front 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 14 hours ago, JoggingGod said: Unless Detroit wants to trade up a spot for Tua 👀 I mentioned this before but I wouldn't even entertain that unless they literally put on paper that they were taking a QB and they would have to give up their entire next 2 drafts to us if they broke that deal. By a large margin the Lion's biggest needs is pass rush. They have a meh secondary with one or two good piece but their pass rush is trash. It would be horrible form and they wouldn't be trusted by people again if they lied to us in a "handshake" deal and took Chase Young, but I wouldn't take the chance. Their best player is their QB who was having an All Pro season in 2019, but he's rehabbing from an injury...so they're going to get rid of him (while taking a $32,000,000 dead cap hit) in order to draft another QB coming off of a much worse injury and who has an injury history before that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 1 hour ago, JamesMadisonSkins said: But I think the point in this thread is ... draft Chase Young at #2 and your pass-rush/Front 4 is so dominant (and deep) that you can mask the youth/inexperience in the secondary. And I think we gotta remember ... we are adding a top tier FA CB and I think it's likely Bradberry. So even if you trade Dunbar for a draft pick, your depth with Bradberry is ... Bradberr, Moreau, Moreland, Johnson ... certainly young and not al that proven, but it could certainly be worse. I like the idea of adding a couple rookies in that scenario, but the point is, you can afford to let some young guys play it out with that front 4 I'm all for drafting Chase at #2, trading Dunny, and signing Bradberry. HOWEVER, I think in that scenario, you have to sign at least 1 DB and draft another DBs to compete for jobs. Moreau was better on the outside than the inside, so there's hope there, and Moreland should improve. But neither are certainties. Both should honestly be competing not only for a starting job but for a roster spot. I think both would make it, but nothing should be given to them. FWIW, I also actually like the idea of extending Kerrigan with a lower cap number to serve as a utility guy. If you draft Young, you have (presumably) Young and Sweat as starting DEs and Allen/Payne/Ioannidis rotating inside, and then you could have Kerrigan as your backup DE, have him as a rush LB in certain situations, a variety of things. I'm assuming Anderson is a LB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) There's a couple ways I could see the Detroit situation playing out depending on how the next few weeks go ... 1. They decide they want to move on from Stafford. There is smoke there, so could certainly be fire. And they may be able to get some decent draft capital trading him once the QB dust settles in FA. If I were them and I could swap 31 year old Stafford for 22 year old Tua, I might do it. And if I can get draft capital back for Stafford, the cap hit for 2020 is also probably worth it. 2. They trade Darius Slay, and the talk is that they could be looking at a 1st, but probably a 2nd for him should it come to that. And in that case, they could covet Okudah in the draft, even if they stick with Stafford. I know they also need pass rush, but in this scenario, they might be able to get both, and it might take some serious moving and shaking on our part but hear me out ... Let's say we get an offer from Miami that we can't refuse. Let's say Miami has an offer on the table to us post combine that gives us #5, #18, #39 and a 2021 1st (Houstons). Before saying yes to that trade, I am simultaneously having conversations with Detroit and gauging their interest as best I can on getting draft capital. I would basically use Miami's offer to work with Detroit to get back to #3. And maybe that turns into a 3 team trade, but maybe it also turns into a risk we are willing to take. Accept Miami's trade and then try and work with Detroit afterwards. Give Detroit #5 and #18 to get back to #3 and take Chase, while keeping #39 and the 2021 1st rounder from Miami. I think Detroit would listen to this offer, because it would allow them to take Okudah at #5 and also get a pass-rusher at #18 ... Chaisson, Gross-Matos and Epenesa could all be there. So if Miami wants to get their guy and secure #2, we make the deal. And if Detroit is interested in adding a CB and a pass-rusher early in the draft, they might prefer a scenario that gets them Okudah and Chaisson > just drafting Chase. Just spittballing here, but should be fun to follow in the coming weeks. Edited February 20, 2020 by JamesMadisonSkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 @JamesMadisonSkinsthat's an interesting scenario from a theory standpoint but for me it's just getting too cute and taking too many chances when you have a shot at a generational talent at the second most important position in football. I like the theory and it would be cool if it happened somehow before the draft and it is nailed down, but I find it sort of unlikely as it isn't often that those sorts of crazy multi-team trades go down. I still also don't see the Lions moving on from Stafford given how well he was playing, that he's likely going to be 100% when the season starts, how bad their defense is, and how costly it would be from a dead cap standpoint to move on from him this year. Not sure how much they'd get for Stafford in a trade. I'd assume they could get a 1st but it isn't guaranteed since he's still coming back from a season ending injury. IMO you'd have to be about 99% positive that Tua is an absolute slam dunk can't miss prospect to give up a load of draft capital, trade your proven NFL QB who was having an All Pro level year before injury, take a huge cap hit, and pass on the chance to draft an elite defender to add to your worst unit in order to go for him. And that includes being 99% positive that he can stay healthy...a great QB who only plays a handful of games a year doesn't do much for you. I personally think Tua is just too much of a chance to take in that situation. I love his talent and absolutely loved watching him play but he has an injury history, is coming off of a devastating season ending one, and played on an absolutely stacked offense with a very good OL and a stable full of 1st round WRs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 @mistertim all fair points and reality likely won’t play out that way. But if Miami offers us a trade we can’t refuse after the combine medical ala Skins / Rams as far as timing goes, we’d be sitting pretty with tons of draft capital and time to negotiate further. In the second scenario, which speaks to the argument you made against the first scenario, maybe there’s an opportunity to trade our capital back to Detroit for #3. They could get Okudah and another defensive piece with #18. But as you mentioned that may just be getting too cute. It’s essentially the same scenario of the Multiple Miami trade up where they give 5+18 to go to 3 and then give us a 2nd to go to 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo#44 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Only way I am trading out of #2 is if we get no less than 6 picks, none later than the 3rd round, and 3 firsts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clskinsfan Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said: Only way I am trading out of #2 is if we get no less than 6 picks, none later than the 3rd round, and 3 firsts. Only way i would even think about trading out of number 2 is if Young goes at 1. And that could happen if Detroit wants him bad enough. If Cincy loves both QB's they might be willing to move to 3 for a haul. In that case Detroit takes Young at 1. I would be looking for a haul from someone that wants Burrow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Bengals should be taking a Young at this rate, sign a vet QB and drafting one at / or jumping back up from #33 for a rookie QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillBill26 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, clskinsfan said: Only way i would even think about trading out of number 2 is if Young goes at 1. And that could happen if Detroit wants him bad enough. If Cincy loves both QB's they might be willing to move to 3 for a haul. In that case Detroit takes Young at 1. I would be looking for a haul from someone that wants Burrow. That's a good point about cincy possibly loving both QB prospects and wanting to trade back to get extra picks. It's funny bc some skins fans who want to trade back are rooting for Tuas medicals to come back clean to help our leverage, where maybe I should start rooting for them to not come back clean so Cincy is forced to stay at 1 and take burrow and it's clear taking CY over a watered down trade package is our best bet. It's going to be a loooooooong 2 months. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) I agree with @MartinC. A stud pass rusher, let alone a potential elite player is far from a luxury. We've been able to pull off during Dan's era finding good players. But elite? Maybe Sean, maybe Trent. That's it IMO. I don't think its some wild coincidence that this team both hasn't had elite players and likewise hasn't sniffed a SB during Dan's tenure. Edited February 21, 2020 by Skinsinparadise 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Casserly doesn't seem to know we are missing the 2nd round pick, otherwise.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Could you imagine if Young is able to add the spin move into his arsenal? Filthy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 52 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now