FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

IMO, this is the big question here.  What's the tipping point and why?

 

Now Rivera would never say it because that gets into how they look at and evaluate players and that's secret sauce stuff.  But I find that evaluation fascinating, that there's a tipping point where he'll know whether or not Haskins is the guy.  

 

Don't know.  The coaches clearly aren't dummies.  Zampese has been around a lot of QBs.  I presume they can isolate whether its the QB at fault or the supporting cast since they know the plays.

 

It's more difficult for an outfit like PFF, who does at the moment identify Haskins as the main or close enoough achilles heel of the offense, versus the supporting cast.  I don't see how PFF can always tell on that front though.

 

But Turner, Zampese, etc worked with Haskins in camp along with the supporting cast.  You'd figure they have an idea about Haskins or they are developing ideas about his potential. 

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that they haven't been impressed with Haskins thus far.  Otherwise, you don't talk about cut off points or say they can't evaluate him like a rookie forever.  And more or less saying you have to do a solid for some players that are killing it on the field mentioning the D line if things don't pick up, etc. 

 

but yeah got no idea what their cut off point is.  I don't know if I agree with having one this season.  I get the idea of winning now in the locker room but long-term?

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Our fanbase is no different than any other fan base. I'm sure we saw the same comments on the Jags boards about Bortles or Gabbert, just as Bears fans complained about Tribisky and countless other examples.

 

As the QB position is so vital to a team's success or failure there is nothing wrong or unique about Washington fans being critical of the play of our QB. 

 

 

Yep, I have lots of friends of fans from other teams and years ago I used to frequent other team boards before we played their team.  We are normal.  Angst about players -- especially QBs, comes with really every team especially the more passionate fanbases 

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

But I still don't get how this can turn into a referrundem on Haskins and not other players on the team (Logan Thomas, Troy Apke, the Wes Brothers, Collins, etc). Its really turning into the Biblical passage "he who is without sin cast the first stone" because even the great Chase Young had the offsides on third down that led to the Eagles scoring, Kerrigan had an offsides, Chubb had 100+ yards yesterday and that wasn't on Haskins. So its not like we're this elite team outside of Haskins. Heck TMac got called for an OPI and Wright was out of bounds and AGG dropped one on a close call. Those aren't on Haskins but we're impacted by them

The supporting cast is not good. But in football the supporting cast doesn’t have the same spotlight as the quarterback. The quarterback drives the team. And if your team is struggling the absolute fastest way to get a spark back is the quarterback.

 

Its just how it works.

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

You're right but Haskins turned it over yesterday.  A lot.  

 

This team is probably 2-1 or maybe even 3-0 with better QB play.  

Possibly, but like i said Haskins wasn't responsible for Chubb's 100+ yards rushing. and Apke missing twice on the same play. He put the defense in bad position but they could have made a play and stopped Cleveland. This is freaking Cleveland, not the Brady/Moss Patriots. And its not like Baker was doing someting special, they just got ran on, except when they needed a catch by OBJ. Where was a turnover this week? Where was the hit on Baker to end a drive? We couldn't help our offense this week. 

 

Haskins is not an all pro QB right now but we are a bad team, all around. Every year we talk about how great this defense will be but this isn't the defense that took Allen the the playoffs last year, its a defense that has a lot of names but needs to prove itself. 

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Its really turning into the Biblical passage "he who is without sin cast the first stone" because even the great Chase Young had the offsides on third down that led to the Eagles scoring, Kerrigan had an offsides, Chubb had 100+ yards yesterday and that wasn't on Haskins. So its not like we're this elite team outside of Haskins. Heck TMac got called for an OPI and Wright was out of bounds and AGG dropped one on a close call. Those aren't on Haskins but we're impacted by them

 

I don't think some of those are the best examples.  Players killing it and also having flaws -- isn't apples to apples with Haskins.  I think the ones preaching patience and him working through his struggles have a point.  But the Chase stuff, Kerrigan, don't see how that applies to Haskins. 

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Our fanbase is no different than any other fan base. I'm sure we saw the same comments on the Jags boards about Bortles or Gabbert, just as Bears fans complained about Tribisky and countless other examples.

 

As the QB position is so vital to a team's success or failure there is nothing wrong or unique about Washington fans being critical of the play of our QB. 

 

Its also what the Eagles fans said about McNabb and Wentz and what we said about Cousins and what any passionate fan base will say about any QB who's not doing it for whatever reason. Heck the Ravens were saying this about Flacco. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

If the WFT actually win that game yesterday with the quarterback turning the ball over 4 times/missing guys all day, we’re talking about a historically unusual performance.  Among the greatest in team history.

[heyholetsgogrant]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

Its also what the Eagles fans said about McNabb and Wentz and what we said about Cousins and what any passionate fan base will say about any QB who's not doing it for whatever reason. Heck the Ravens were saying this about Flacco. 

 

 

Seems like the fans are more right then wrong when evaluating QB's? 😛

[SoCalSkins]

With Cam we win this division easy. With a healthy Alex Smith we win this division easy. With Teddy Bridgewater we win this division. Once you get in the playoffs you never know. 

 

Haskins is the weak link. We are sacrificing playoffs on a bust who will never be anything more than what he is now. He might flash for a game or 2 but in the end he is a bust. That’s been obvious from the beginning. He has no redeemable qualities. The dude is trash and his attitude is worse. At least he hasn’t spouted off that he’s a future hall of famer like last year but then again he hasn’t been asked. 

[Skinsinparadise]

50 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

We've pretty much done everything else wrong in the process of developing a QB prospect.  But I think Ron Rivera understands the process far better than anyone who was here when we drafted Dwayne, and he's trying to turn things around.  I think he can do it too, he's a good coach.

 

Based on Rivera's statements today, sounds like he disagrees with him being automatically given the full season. Not sure i agree with him.  But will see how it plays out.  Hopefully Haskins improves and it becomes a nonissue

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't think those are the best examples.  Players killing it and also having flaws -- isn't apples to apples with Haskins.  I think the ones preaching patience and him working through his struggles have a point.  But the Chase stuff, Kerrigan, don't see how that applies to Haskins. 

Everybdy makes mistakes. Haskins needs to grow through these mistakes the same way that other players do. Chase made a critical mistake on a third down. Apke did too (both against the Eagles) and they led to the Eagles scoring. Haskins made 4 critical mistakes yesterday, but we can't evaluate his play based solely on those plays because that's not fair. He made some beautiful throws and is showing us what he can do in this league. People who want him to turn into Allen or Cousins or Mahomes are asking for too much because he is his own QB but he is making some really good plays and doing his reads and throwing the ball. 

[theTruthTeller]

Question for the start-kyle-allen crowd:  If Allen starts next week and plays decent through the end of the season (say we end up 7-9), what happens next?  Allen is on a one-year contract.  Do you try to re-sign him and forego drafting a quarterback with the first pick?  He'll probably want enough money to guarantee that he'll be the unquestioned starter at least for 2021.  If he sucks this year, what good did it do to start him?  If he's in-between, the end result is a worse draft position and not much else.

 

Sometimes you need to accept that you are in a bad situation and make the best of it.

 

And for the pro-Haskins crowd: please stop with the analogies with players who sucked for a short time and became good.  A lot more players who start out horrible end up horrible. Most quarterbacks drafted in the first round don't make it long-term: (starting in 2017) Trubisky, Wentz, Lynch, Winston, Mariotta, Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater ...  Finding the ones that didn't fail is the exception, not the rule.  Right now, there is precious little to see in Haskins game to make me want to build around him.  But I see a lot to gain in continuing to start him, take the lumps, and start building a team from the bottom up (the bottom being the O-line).

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

If the WFT actually win that game yesterday with the quarterback turning the ball over 4 times/missing guys all day, we’re talking about a historically unusual performance.  Among the greatest in team history.

 

The D line looks as advertised.  We are on the brink of being a good team at least on that side of the ball.  I think that was part of Rivera's point, he seemed to think they can win now with better play at QB.   For me, I'd play it out with Haskins even though I have some skepticism about whether he's the guy.   I don't think Kyle Allen has it.  If Alex Smith is his old self (which is a big question) he probably wins more games with this team.  

[method man]

7 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

Question for the start-kyle-allen crowd:  If Allen starts next week and plays decent through the end of the season (say we end up 7-9), what happens next?  Allen is on a one-year contract.  Do you try to re-sign him and forego drafting a quarterback with the first pick?  He'll probably want enough money to guarantee that he'll be the unquestioned starter at least for 2021.  If he sucks this year, what good did it do to start him?  If he's in-between, the end result is a worse draft position and not much else.

 

Sometimes you need to accept that you are in a bad situation and make the best of it.

 

And for the pro-Haskins crowd: please stop with the analogies with players who sucked for a short time and became good.  A lot more players who start out horrible end up horrible. Most quarterbacks drafted in the first round don't make it long-term: (starting in 2017) Trubisky, Wentz, Lynch, Winston, Mariotta, Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater ...  Finding the ones that didn't fail is the exception, not the rule.  Right now, there is precious little to see in Haskins game to make me want to build around him.  But I see a lot to gain in continuing to start him, take the lumps, and start building a team from the bottom up (the bottom being the O-line).

 

He isn't and that's part of beauty of trading for him. Because he was an undrafted free agent, we have ERFA rights on him this year and then RFA rights on him next year.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Everybdy makes mistakes. Haskins needs to grow through these mistakes the same way that other players do. Chase made a critical mistake on a third down. Apke did too (both against the Eagles) and they led to the Eagles scoring. Haskins made 4 critical mistakes yesterday, but we can't evaluate his play based solely on those plays because that's not fair. He made some beautiful throws and is showing us what he can do in this league. People who want him to turn into Allen or Cousins or Mahomes are asking for too much because he is his own QB but he is making some really good plays and doing his reads and throwing the ball. 

 

I doubt they are judging Haskins purely about the 4 mistakes.  They are professionals.  I'd assume if they've been loving most of what they saw from Haskins in camp and during the season they would care less about the 4 turnovers.  

 

I am assuming they know miles more about Haskins and how well he's running their offense, his potential, etc than anyone of us here.  

 

It didn't sound by the way at all that Rivera is throwing in the towel on Haskins.  What I got from it is he wants to see it play out some more but there is a limit to how much he's willing to ride Haskins struggiling if that's how the ride goes. 

 

[heyholetsgogrant]

7 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

Question for the start-kyle-allen crowd:  If Allen starts next week and plays decent through the end of the season (say we end up 7-9), what happens next?  Allen is on a one-year contract.  Do you try to re-sign him and forego drafting a quarterback with the first pick?  He'll probably want enough money to guarantee that he'll be the unquestioned starter at least for 2021.  If he sucks this year, what good did it do to start him?  If he's in-between, the end result is a worse draft position and not much else.

 

Sometimes you need to accept that you are in a bad situation and make the best of it.

 

And for the pro-Haskins crowd: please stop with the analogies with players who sucked for a short time and became good.  A lot more players who start out horrible end up horrible. Most quarterbacks drafted in the first round don't make it long-term: (starting in 2017) Trubisky, Wentz, Lynch, Winston, Mariotta, Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater ...  Finding the ones that didn't fail is the exception, not the rule.  Right now, there is precious little to see in Haskins game to make me want to build around him.  But I see a lot to gain in continuing to start him, take the lumps, and start building a team from the bottom up (the bottom being the O-line).

 

You forgot, "Johnny Football" 😛.  Also, I would like to add most franchise QB's show flashes in their rookies seasons, even Peyton Manning did in his awful rookie season.  

[TradeTheBeal!]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The D line looks as advertised.  We are on the brink of being a good team at least on that side of the ball.  I think that was part of Rivera's point, he seemed to think they can win now with better play at QB.   For me, I'd play it out with Haskins even though I have some skepticism about whether he's the guy.   I don't think Kyle Allen has it.  If Alex Smith is his old self (which is a big question) he probably wins more games with this team.  

I think Ron is correct, but “win now” prolly means Sept 21 and I’m ok with that.

 

Im already fantasizing about a full offseason/strong draft from this staff and an off-season trade for Matt Stafford.  We could really do some damage in this busted division.

 

Or, Haskins could elevate his game and fill that role.  I’m optimistic about the future either way.

 

 

[Panninho]

6 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

And for the pro-Haskins crowd: please stop with the analogies with players who sucked for a short time and became good.  A lot more players who start out horrible end up horrible. Most quarterbacks drafted in the first round don't make it long-term: (starting in 2017) Trubisky, Wentz, Lynch, Winston, Mariotta, Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater ...  Finding the ones that didn't fail is the exception, not the rule.  Right now, there is precious little to see in Haskins game to make me want to build around him.  But I see a lot to gain in continuing to start him, take the lumps, and start building a team from the bottom up (the bottom being the O-line).

Totally agree with your statement. Just answering because it was me who brought the Josh Allen comparison into the thread today. Didn't mention it because that's what's likely to happen. Just that it sometimes pays off to be patient and I feel we are in the situation that even if it doesn't pay off (Haskins doesn't develop) it might still benefit us long-term - like you said, don't see the upside of starting Allen.

[ntotoro]

Oops... wrong tab

[Thinking Skins]

11 minutes ago, theTruthTeller said:

And for the pro-Haskins crowd: please stop with the analogies with players who sucked for a short time and became good.  A lot more players who start out horrible end up horrible. Most quarterbacks drafted in the first round don't make it long-term: (starting in 2017) Trubisky, Wentz, Lynch, Winston, Mariotta, Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater ...  Finding the ones that didn't fail is the exception, not the rule.  Right now, there is precious little to see in Haskins game to make me want to build around him.  But I see a lot to gain in continuing to start him, take the lumps, and start building a team from the bottom up (the bottom being the O-line).

 

 

This is so funny to me because all it invites is the same old question. Look at Jared Goff. he was a bust because of his coach and the scheme, went 0-7 as a rookie. Then he gets a new coach and a new scheme and starts to thrive. Not a top 5 QB but showed he belongs in the league and took them to the SB. 

 

So now I'm picking special cases and ones that fit a certain narrative. But who else has a narrative through 10 games similar to Haskins? So far he's had 3 coaches and 2 (or 3 or 4 if you count Gruden, Cal, KOC, and Turner) offensive coordinators and an offseason without that new coordinator so he has been unable to learn the ins and outs of the offense except in a 2 week training camp before the first game of the season. But yeah, lets just lump him with every other QB drafted in the past 3 years and say he is what the stats project him as. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said:

I think Ron is correct, but “win now” prolly means Sept 21 and I’m ok with that.

 

Im already fantasizing about a full offseason/strong draft from this staff and an off-season trade for Matt Stafford.  We could really do some damage in this busted division.

 

Or, Haskins could elevate his game and fill that role.  I’m optimistic about the future either way.

 

 

 

LOL, I don't know too many Stafford guys in my circle but I am a Stafford guy too.  I like him.  I think this roster has potential.  I do think they'd win with Stafford if they added some pieces.  the defense can potentially be the best in the league or close enough with some additions.  I like where this team is headed.   QB to me is one of the big mysteries but if that's solved, sky is the limit. 

[method man]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

LOL, I don't know too many Stafford guys in my circle but I am a Stafford guy too.  I like him.  I think this roster has potential.  I do think they'd win with Stafford if they added some pieces.  the defense can potentially be the best in the league or close enough with some additions.  I like where this team is headed.   QB to me is one of the big mysteries but if that's solved, sky is the limit. 

 

Outside of his back injury last year, he has been fairly durable as well. When he's had a good coaching staff around him, he's won. 

[Skinsinparadise]

[KDawg]

I really, really like Rivera.

[HTTRDynasty]

Interesting - his decision not to use timeouts at the end of games when there is still a chance to win contradicts what he's saying today about wanting to "win now" for the guys playing hard.

 

Haskins played poorly yesterday.  No doubt about it.  The only thing he really had going for him until this point was his lack of INTs.  And he ruined that.  So I can see why Rivera would be frustrated by this perceived regression.  But outside of the turnovers, I actually think Haskins showed more flashes yesterday than he showed in the previous two games combined.  I think benching him this season would be a mistake, and I truly believe Rivera knows that and is just giving lip service to the fans and reporters... because, as I alluded to earlier, his actions don't match his words here.

[CommanderInTheRye]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Folks Ron's quotation is the exact opposite of coach speak.

 

Pure plain text with no dodging or equivocation. What a breath of fresh air.

 

Rivera essentially fired a cannon shot across the bow of the S.S. Haskins putting him on notice that in fairness to the team: "His patience has limits."

 

 

Dwayne either improves or he hits the pine-- likely for good.