FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah, I think you're right...it's Jay's predictability that's such a killer. I remember one of the games last season where Romo was commentating and he mentioned that he had studied the Skins offense and talked about how Jay's play calling is too predictable. IIRC went on to look at the formations and then called out a bunch of plays before they started and was right on almost every one. It was embarrassing. 

 

According to Sharp, Jay falls to almost every predictable pattern.   The running on first down.  The throws to RBs happen on third down.    The personnel groups -- 12 means run, 11 means pass, etc.  Even though statistically speaking the time to throw to your running backs is first down not third.  Throw on first -- run on 2nd if anything.  The run-run-pass is the easiest thing to stop.  The easiest thing to stop period is third and long when defenses know you are going to throw.  

 

I gather Jay gets that his TE personnel typically telegraphs run-pass since he's talked about it this off season.  Sprinkle in, it's likely a run.  Sprinkle in with another TE almost for sure a run.  Reed in by himself its almost always a pass.  It was something like that -- Cooley went over it.  But too bad the TE personnel is likely going to be the same this year. 

 

I like Jay's personality.   I like his play design.  I like his personnel skills.   But I'd love for him to give play calling and clock management to other people to run.  In his defense some, the dude has got a lot on his plate.   I don't love it when head coaches have to worry about so much because how can you master everything?

 

I don't per se agree as some say that McVay was the real genius behind the play calling when he was here.  But I could see a good marriage between Jay's play design and McVay's play calling since they are two different things. 

 

 

[volsmet]

42 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

This isn’t a bad thing in the least. There’s plenty “NFL guys” who are ALL IN. Most others give the typical answer about his inexperience, which provides no value to me the consumer. 

 

I agree 100% on the mobility issue being a farce, from watch I’ve watched (still not a great amount, but getting there). He seems very adept at manipulating the pocket while keeping his eyes down the field  (something I’ve not witnessed in a Skins QB for a while) and scramble for positive gains when play breaks down. Absolute musts for a pocket QB. 

 

What games show him thriving in any sort of chaos? He steps up in areas far larger than he’ll ever have in the nfl, but I never saw him look decent with any sort of actual pressure. He can find room when plenty is available, but I never saw him doing much in any condensed area, much less sitting in and needing to deliver while taking a hit. 

34 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

Imo, his best game by far, and the team got mollywhopped. QBs get credit for comebacks, but PSU was his worst game, and they get killed for losses, but Purdue was his best. Imo.

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am relatively nice to Jay here compared to some.  I'll say this, yeah I do think Jay is a killer play designer. 

 

I think of you as a Jay fan. 

 

I don’t care for him at all, since McVay left, our offense is 🤨.

[CaptainChaos47]

On 5/6/2019 at 9:33 PM, SkinsNoles21 said:

 

Before posting an arrogant winky face, do a quick google search. He's had off-field issues not denying that. But not successful. LOOOOL. 

 

Imagine if he was white... 

 

AND NOW we understand what were dealing with when people try to judge Haskins. 

 

Proving my point. Black pocket passers who use their arm and mind to be successful are difficult for you.  

 

 

These are Theismann's embarrassing stats... 

 

Oh man lol.. Telephone tough guy..Never compared him to Theisman and why would black qbs who use their mind and arm be an issue for me?  I clearly stated I hoped Haskins was better than Winston.  Winston is a middle of the road guy at best.  Since you like google and stats here are the numbers of the guy who replaced him. For the record I hope Haskins is better than him too. 😉

 

[volsmet]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

According to Sharp, Jay falls to almost every predictable pattern.   The running on first down.  The throws to RBs happen on third down.    The personnel groups -- 12 means run, 11 means pass, etc. 

 

 

 

Evidence suggests Jay would take a 2nd & 8 over a 1st & 10. He loves 2nd & 8.

2 minutes ago, CaptainChaos47 said:

Oh man lol.. Telephone tough guy..Never compared him to Theisman and why would black qbs who use their mind and arm be an issue for me?  I clearly stated I hoped Haskins was better than Winston.  Winston is a middle of the road guy at best.  Since you like google and stats here are the numbers of the guy who replaced him. For the record I hope Haskins is better than him too. 😉

 

 

 

 

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't per se agree as some say that McVay was the real genius behind the play calling when he was here.  But I could see a good marriage between Jay's play design and McVay's play calling since they are two different things. 

 

 

I also think it was a combination. Jay has a really good offensive mind for play design and McVay probably learned plenty from him. But McVay was great at actually calling the right plays at the right time as well as making in-game adjustments. I get that the TEs can telegraph things but McVay was mostly working with the same TEs and he was able to make it work. Not sure what Jay's deal is but he seems so damn conservative and has absolutely no killer instinct; it drove me up the ****ing wall during the season. I remember in some of the game threads people would call out what the play was going to be or even what the next series of plays would be and it was sad how often they were right. 

 

9 minutes ago, CaptainChaos47 said:

Oh man lol.. Telephone tough guy..

 

 

Wait, why were you two discussing this on the telephone?

 

[Warhead36]

I think Gruden is a better playcaller than many give him credit for, he's just handicapped by the personnel.

 

I mean I get it, when Jordan Reed is in the game we're more likely to throw the ball. But what is Gruden supposed to do, NOT play Reed? He's only one of if not our best weapon in the pass game.

 

Yeah we did run the ball a lot on 1st down, but this past year we had Adrian Peterson who is still very good, with a QB in Alex Smith that is very conservative and limited weapons around him(before Smith injury). It makes some sense to try to run it more. Again, if we're getting 2nd and 6 instead of 2nd and 9, the playcalling isn't criticized.

 

Playcalling is just one of those things that just about every team's fan outside of maybe the Rams, Saints, and Pats complain about. Same with "clock management." Every coach sucks at it.

[RandyHolt]

I am still not sold that developing is more important than just using, a top tier QB. 

 

What are the odds an early to mid 1st round QB becomes a full time starter for his career: a)using the traditional long slow make him hold a clip board year 1 no matter what, or b) ditching the playbook and using his college playbook, and slowly add back over the course of his first few years the OCs playbook designed for Brady. Which mind you requires the imperative drop back timing and footwork that neither Brady nor Manning mastered to the point that practicing it is no longer needed.

 

I feel like its almost imprinted in our DNA to make a kid sit as that is THE key to a long illustrious career, but reality is that many QB have failed after sitting for prolong periods, and also failed when starting right away.  There is so much more to the equation than sit. stay. stew. start = Super Bowl.

 

 

[wit33]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

 

What games show him thriving in any sort of chaos? He steps up in areas far larger than he’ll ever have in the nfl, but I never saw him look decent with any sort of actual pressure. He can find room when plenty is available, but I never saw him doing much in any condensed area, much less sitting in and needing to deliver while taking a hit. 

 

Imo, his best game by far, and the team got mollywhopped. QBs get credit for comebacks, but PSU was his worst game, and they get killed for losses, but Purdue was his best. Imo.

 

I think of you as a Jay fan. 

 

I don’t care for him at all, since McVay left, our offense is 🤨.

 

Admittedly, I’ve only watched cut ups provided here and also his full game versus WU. I readily admit I don’t have the full spectrum knowledge on the aggregate level to compare all games and situations. 

 

What QB operates well consistently in chaos?

 

Sure, the supremely athletic ones can take off, but it’s still not ideal. His ability to diagnose pre snap, read levels of the field or get through 3 to 4 reads, step up in pocket right or left, and throw from various arm angles all assist in staying away from chaos. 

 

Is he a finished product and comparable to all time great QBs coming out? No. But... there’s a lot there to work with and some innate traits that I’m seeing. 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

 

I think of you as a Jay fan. 

 

I don’t care for him at all, since McVay left, our offense is 🤨.

 

I give extra credit with this team for any dude who is likable because I don't personally find the public image of Dan or Bruce being that hot and as a Redskins fan I like being seen as the good guys not the bad guys.  Bruce gives the team IMO a villain vibe to it and Dan even worse.  Jay in my view is likable as  heck.

 

Plus seeing Jay interact with my kids multiple times -- he was really cool with them.  I've watched a practice before a game at Redskins Park and some of training camp and I liked what I saw and it was clear to me the players liked him.   He coaches with a lot of energy. 

 

Scot told me to my face and he's said publicly Jay is a really good evaluator and I believe that.  I do believe the report that Jay and Kyle are closely aligned in that building.  So I do think he has some value to the organization behind the scenes.  Also like JP Finlay likes to say he knows how to navigate the politics of that building and there is some value to that.

 

I do think he is really good at play design.  I just like him to have someone else call the actual plays and deal with clock management.  Shanny though wasn't hot with clock management either neither was Gibbs in his 2nd stint.  So if O'Connell ends up calling plays I do think ironically it might help Jay's longevity here. 

 

I think though unless Bruce is gone, we'd have a hard time upgrading over Jay.   I do believe the speculation that Bruce being in charge of that building for multiple reasons makes this HC job less attractive than other places.  So all those that think the next hot candidate will come here in 2020 -- got my doubts in a big way unless Bruce is gone along with Jay.

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think Gruden is a better playcaller than many give him credit for, he's just handicapped by the personnel.

 

 

I think play design is a key element to play calling.  I think though he'd be helped by having someone else at least call the sequence of the plays -- that's where in my view he struggles.  But to your point, I agree about personnel. 

 

LG and depth on the O line has been an issue for years.  We have one of the weakest receiving crews in the NFL and one dimensional TEs.

 

On the Alex Smith thread last year when I was going through clips of games it was easy to see guys though were getting open yet Alex often wouldn't throw the ball.   I recall one of the quotes from a beat guy was Jay is pulling his hair out about all the missed opportunities. 

[HigSkin]

I didn't see this posted but one heck of a throw.

 

 

[volsmet]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Again, if we're getting 2nd and 6 instead of 2nd and 9, the playcalling isn't criticized.

 

 

If the play calling was good, it would not be criticized, that’s true. Unfortunately, we never score to start a game or to start the 2nd half because Jay is not a good play caller ..  McVay scored with our roster & Fishers, good play callers put up points, Jay does not. 

[volsmet]

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Admittedly, I’ve only watched cut ups provided here and also his full game versus WU. I readily admit I don’t have the full spectrum knowledge on the aggregate level to compare all games and situations. 

 

What QB operates well consistently in chaos?

 

Sure, the supremely athletic ones can take off, but it’s still not ideal. His ability to diagnose pre snap, read levels of the field or get through 3 to 4 reads, step up in pocket right or left, and throw from various arm angles all assist in staying away from chaos. 

 

Is he a finished product and comparable to all time great QBs coming out? No. But... there’s a lot there to work with and some innate traits that I’m seeing. 

 

Lots of QBs make plays in chaos in college. Haskins doesn’t have the natural gifts that allow him to make throws off platform & Ohio state protected him incredibly well by scheme & with 5 star OL v 3 star big ten recruits. Lock is much more natural when things break down in protection, Haskins needs things to be nearly perfect. Lock had 4 years, Haskins just the one... it’s an ask that I believe is underestimated here, but I hope our young QB is up to the challenge. When you see a guys arm so unnatural when he’s moving, there is often a disconnect in fluidity that will never be resolved by anything but elite pass protection & tireless preparation. The position is getting easier, and Dwayne can make the most difficult passes, I just hope the middle of our line finds some answers & Jay lets DH throw on less predictable situations if he’s going to start in 2019.

 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I give extra credit with this team for any dude who is likable because I don't personally find the public image of Dan or Bruce being that hot and as a Redskins fan I like being seen as the good guys not the bad guys.  Bruce gives the team IMO a villain vibe to it and Dan even worse.  Jay in my view is likable as  heck.

 

Plus seeing Jay interact with my kids multiple times -- he was really cool with them.  I've watched a practice before a game at Redskins Park and some of training camp and I liked what I saw and it was clear to me the players liked him.   He coaches with a lot of energy. 

 

Scot told me to my face and he's said publicly Jay is a really good evaluator and I believe that.  I do believe the report that Jay and Kyle are closely aligned in that building.  So I do think he has some value to the organization behind the scenes.  Also like JP Finlay likes to say he knows how to navigate the politics of that building and there is some value to that.

 

 

I really like Jay’s personality, and if he’s good with kids than that is more important than football games... nothing comes close to how children are treated, that’s my softest spot, but I just can’t get past how atrocious we are in the 3rd Q. We make football look like baseball. 

[Thinking Skins]

11 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

That's all stats at all levels. Context matters. 

 

I don't see a boatload of missed passes. I see missed passes for sure, though. Most stemming from footwork issues.

 

 

 

 

For the record, I don't think that. I just think Cooley is a little scattered in his point and it's not coherent.

 

Not a Cooley apologist in the least, haven't heard his reviews and don't plan to. But just thinking qbs and critiques of qbs in general, one common thing is the statement "he missed his guy" which could mean a lot of things 

- he threw an incomplete pass

- he threw it to the wrong guy

- he threw it too late

- he threw it to the wrong position (causing his guy to make a harder catch) 

- he didn't allow his guys to get yac

 

There are some more, but these come to mind. Some of these can really be ruled out, like he hit the guys he threw to, and many of them got good yac. As far as the "wrong guy", this is something that people complain about a lot, and going by some of the other comments I've read here (he locks on his first read, waits for the guy to get open), this is a possibility but I'd also say that because we don't know OSU's offense, we don't know his reads and stuff. But again, if the way he was doing it was working, I don't see the need to change what he was doing there too much. In fact it makes me happier that he left when he did so he can learn a more complex offense before he gets to used to that stuff. 

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'd also say that because we don't know OSU's offense, we don't know his reads and stuff. But again, if the way he was doing it was working, I don't see the need to change what he was doing there too much. In fact it makes me happier that he left when he did so he can learn a more complex offense before he gets to used to that stuff. 

 

What the heck I'll defend Cooley again.    His point more or less is he saw Haskins can nail what in his mind are the easy passes -- short slants, short crossers.  And his key point is that Ohio State throws a ton of them and the same ones repeatedly.  He went on that one game they threw about 10 of them in a row.  He'd say he's not going to be able to get away in the NFL to throw that much short stuff in a row especially when they were at times the same plays again and again or a variation of the same play.

 

And if people want to make the claim that Haskins will be a master likewise in the NFL for the easy short passes as to hitting WRs in stride for YAC -- he'd say fine.  As someone who watched some of that YAC and posted clips of it highlighting Parris Campbell on the draft thread -- Campbell in my view was electric with YAC, I show an example like that below but there is plenty like it.  So the YAC IMO wasn't mostly about Haskins.  He had some receivers who could fly and were incredibly dynamic in the open field.  I like Trey Quinn but I doubt he's taking a short slant 30 yards or to the house regardless of where Haskins placed the ball.

 

And again I am sticking to my point which i think if anything we got to celebrate the questions about Haskins.  IMO no freaking way an obvious slam dunk franchise Qb is landing at 15 -- passed over by the Giants, Denver, Cincy, Miami.    Mayfield, Darnold, Luck, Newton, Wentz, etc weren't dropping to 15. 

 

I do buy he's a work in progress or at least has some questions.  And more so than the standard top pick in the draft Qb.   but yeah considering where we were picking in the draft at 15 -- its great we got a dude with some great talent.    My take isn't completely the same as Cooley's but is similar and I am intrigued by the same thing that he was intrigued by which is in the mix of his play, he does throw some beauty throws and has arm talent.

 

If you go through in recent years who the third Qb was taken in the draft or just looked at the mid round first round Qb its not a pretty list D. Watson being the exception and Watson was picked ahead of Haskins and a team traded up to do it.    My point is the warts or perceived warts is what made this possible.  We can argue they aren't there or they are so minimal that people are nitpicking at nonsense -- I don't agree.   

 

The way I see it if these "flaws" or "questions" are addressed and answered -- this franchise hit an unbelievable stroke of luck.  And aren't we due for that for a change -- especially at Qb?  I am excited to see what happens this summer on that front.  Count me among the people who do have concerns about Haskins but I think its doable with him -- and I don't have issues with anyone  including Cooley voicing those concerns because IMO no way Haskins falls to 15 if the concerns were in the "get out of here" category.  I am not saying you are saying otherwise.  Just expounding on a point.

 

 

[KDawg]

I think Jay is one of the best in the league as it pertains to play design, install & variety. I think he's okay to good at using plays to match his personnel. I think he's poor in situational calls and adjustments.

 

I think he would benefit from having someone else calling the plays who is better at situational calls and adjustments with the caveat that if Jay sees something is set up he can (he's the HC) call it.

 

It would also allow him to see the field and think situationally if he's not calling every play. That's important.

 

As someone who used to coach, I never thought the HC should be calling plays after he's been in a system and established what he wants from his assistants. He should be overseeing everything. 

 

I think Jay is football smart. I think he's situationally blind because he doesn't diagnose things quick enough.

 

As far as Haskins/Jay fit, I think he'll fit just fine based on what Jay likes to do with the offense. But the play calls need to be situationally accurate.

[JSSkinz]

The drop off in 2017 after Mcvay left might have had a little to do with Reed being injured the entire next year and Desean and Garcon leaving for other teams.

 

Then Kirk breaks CT's leg 8 games in, I don't think its a coincidence we lost every playmaker and then our offense **** the bed at the same time.

[RandyHolt]

I heard the junkies talking 1st round QBs today, and they said over the past 10 years, consensus is that they start games early in their first year.  No surprise to me of course, as I have been quick to point out young QBs are doing fine now that coaches aren't being playbook stiffs.

 

Hawkins may be raw and not ready by historical NFL measuring sticks. But like OSU did, changing their offense to fit his strengths, should be something we can do.

 

More and more the things we see done in college are trickling their way into the NFL.  The collective NFL seems to remain steadfast and stubborn in resisting change, but I think the record will show the (handfull? of) coaches that have adopted concepts and schemes from college have done well, specifically looking at QB play.

[LD0506]

Damn, y'all make it hard to keep up with this thread,  I sit down in the morning and there are reams of posts and I feel the need to read it all to catch up with the convo...........

 

And I'm grateful for every bit of it.

 

SiP makes a crucial point, if he was perfect we'd never even have gotten a shot at him. Might he be a franchise QB? Hell yeah, he might, you can might a lot of things, which is why I am still so concerned with the coaching. Like so many others he can be allowed or even encouraged to bust far easier than shine. Give him protection, ease him in with comfort food plays that he feels good with, focus this season on his growth and learning. They play the kid to a 6-10 season end without him getting hurt, Haskins is far more advanced for future campaigns. This is where I'm at, I am much more interested in how well he can be groomed than any win or loss this year.

[volsmet]

8 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I heard the junkies talking 1st round QBs today, and they said over the past 10 years, consensus is that they start games early in their first year.  No surprise to me of course, as I have been quick to point out young QBs are doing fine now that coaches aren't being playbook stiffs.

 

Hawkins may be raw and not ready by historical NFL measuring sticks. But like OSU did, changing their offense to fit his strengths, should be something we can do.

 

More and more the things we see done in college are trickling their way into the NFL.  The collective NFL seems to remain steadfast and stubborn in resisting change, but I think the record will show the (handfull? of) coaches that have adopted concepts and schemes from college have done well, specifically looking at QB play.

 

OSU was able to keep him clean every week & utilize the width of the field to get 4.3/4.4 guys separation from 4.7 guys, that’s unique to the college game. OSU didn’t have all of its speed WRs in this year’s draft, but they still produced 3 of the top 8 40 times at the combine. Haskins had a very low depth of attempt, nearly 3 yards behind Murray, because OSU used the width to get their superior athletes the ball on the move — that’s not going to happen in the NFL, as you are aware.

 

Watching how he develops will be fascinating, I’ve not looked forward to a preseason this much in several years. 

[bakedtater1]

Im excited that's for sure..any time the skins draft a QB in the first it pours on the anticipation much more which is exciting to me. I have faith the current coaching staff will approach the season properly and we have more of a successful season than many people think.

[RandyHolt]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

 

OSU was able to keep him clean every week & utilize the width of the field to get 4.3/4.4 guys separation from 4.7 guys, that’s unique to the college game. OSU didn’t have all of its speed WRs in this year’s draft, but they still produced 3 of the top 8 40 times at the combine. Haskins had a very low depth of attempt, nearly 3 yards behind Murray, because OSU used the width to get their superior athletes the ball on the move — that’s not going to happen in the NFL, as you are aware.

 

Watching how he develops will be fascinating, I’ve not looked forward to a preseason this much in several years. 

 

Well said, good stuff.

 

I was going to post today about the elephant in the room, our lame duck WR corpse corps.

 

Most are interested in how Hawkins develops, while early on I am most interested in how he is used.  But if using the width of the field is what he is used to, that sure seems like something that I think I have seen from Jay.  That is, many plays with guys running 2 yard down field and then running laterally across the field. While we won't win many foot races (accidental picks ha), it does seem like something Jay likes to try to exploit, and it sounds like something Haskins is used to.

 

My interest, is Jay going to use a lot of 12, or almost max protect, or bunch and have all 21 players within 10 yards from the kid, or spread the field and let the kid read a bit more.  Formations with everyone at the LOS is chaotic presnap and all it takes is one of the 8 blockers to fail and the play gets blown up.  I want to see more gun spread from Jay, where Haskins is comfortable, but go run heavy from that.  If Guice and Love are healthy it's obvious our strength is at RB, and then we should base our offensive approach off of their heavy usage.  It'll never happen but I would love to see 2 backs "20" on the field a lot this year.  It does NOT have to be CT, or bust. Motion one (or both) out wide, and look for a mismatch vs a clunky stiff college DE masquerading as an NFL LB.

 

A solid run game is the best development angle for Haskins. Here is the catch, no pun intended.  Jay has to get past "run run pass", for the pass part is too predictable. I strongly feel the way of the NFL now is to run from pass formations, and pass from run heavy looks.  Jay doesn't seem to endorse my view of how the game has changed over the past 10 years. He is more apt to still line up heavy jumbo on 4th and a foot, and call a low slow developing run play up the gut. Some may blame the backup OL that got blown up by the oppositions beast nose, but not me.

[bakedtater1]

Got a feeling will be wishing we would have hung on to crowder..

[RandyHolt]

36 minutes ago, bakedtater1 said:

Got a feeling will be wishing we would have hung on to crowder..

 

Trey Quinn staying healthy seems imperative for our WRs to have any semblance of decency.   I know Mo or others can move into the slot, but it would be great to have a young WR graduate in Quinn out perform Crowder. I likely had too high of expectations on Crowder, but solely from watching the leagues elite slot guys just destroy defenses.

 

I think Crowder had nagging injuries that limited his effectiveness and usage, and (currently) am OK with letting him go. But I am surprised we haven't brought in a vet..... and no, do not resign Mike stonehands Floyd.  Maybe Jehu Chesson....

[volsmet]

28 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Trey Quinn staying healthy seems imperative for our WRs to have any semblance of decency.   I know Mo or others can move into the slot, but it would be great to have a young WR graduate in Quinn out perform Crowder. I likely had too high of expectations on Crowder, but solely from watching the leagues elite slot guys just destroy defenses.

 

I think Crowder had nagging injuries that limited his effectiveness and usage, and (currently) am OK with letting him go. But I am surprised we haven't brought in a vet..... and no, do not resign Mike stonehands Floyd.  Maybe Jehu Chesson....

 

I wonder if we don’t split Thompson out a bit more, he’s a problem no one wants 1 v 1.