Skinsinparadise Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 3. Washington Redskins Dwayne Haskins is still pretty raw -- as I saw first-hand at OTAs last week -- as one would expect from a one-year college starter. He also can do things no Skins QB has been able to do for a long, long time. Even some close to Haskins believe quietly that sitting for at least a few weeks into the season makes the most sense, and while he will undoubtedly flash at camp and in the preseason, after ruining so many QBs in the past the Skins must have learned something, right? No reason to rush him in any way, and the way the Skins are splitting the reps between him and Case Keenum sets a template for steady growth into September and October, building up Haskins while giving Keenum the lead spot. The handoff is gonna occur at some point this fall, regardless. Key Date: Sept. 29. The Skins open with the Eagles, Cowboys and Bears, which means by Week 4 head coach Jay Gruden and his staff might already be getting hot under the collar. Owner Dan Snyder will be watching very closely, and he loves a good marketing ploy, and how about unleashing Haskins against the woeful Giants, who traded up for Daniel Jones over Haskins? The Giants hinted they thought the Skins were Team Jones, which is why they moved up for a QB no one else was thinking about with a top 10 pick. If not Sept. 29, then by a month later, when the 49ers come to town (Oct. 20) I would expect Haskins to be running the offense. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-2019-seven-teams-likely-to-make-a-change-at-quarterback-and-when-it-will-happen/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 "No need to rush him".... There was also no need to draft him, especially if the master plan is to not play him no matter how good he looks. We could have easily rolled Case Colt and JJ, and get a QB next year. If playing early in a career is truly risky, I wonder should we even risk playing him in preseason. Shut him down for the entire year, and stop ****ing around if its a valid concern. I personally don't think significant experience is gained in the very vanilla preseason. All coaches are hiding their hands; the home team puts a little show on for the fans, and then all get off the field asap. Starters play what, maybe 3 quarters? It's like a pickup game after the starters trot off after a series. For those that want him to sit, try and quantify the benefits. If he doesn't play the first month, do his chances of a lengthy prosperous career increase by 2%? If he sits the entire season, does it skyrocket to 6%? We should have numbers on this by now. I contend that many people learn best through experience, and the benefit of making him sit will be offset in other ways. Including the obvious, not letting him get live game experience. A lack of experience, is already a thing he is dealing with. I think its ironic to use the term "rushing" him in a game filled with all teams rushing the ball, and rushing the QB. I think fans pundits and coaches are rushing to judgment preaching that sitting him is the best thing for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Experience is taking place for Haskins while playing behind Keenum; Practicing, preparing, and establishing relationships with players and coaches will be happening. These are a few areas off the top, but each will assist in growth if approached with professionalism and commitment. For the record, I’m not a sit or play right away fan. I look at the individual situation and draw conclusions from there. The Skins situation is set up for a veteran to be given chance to lead the team (Vets on roster, talent in trenches, and formula having “some” success last year)The team is average, meaning they’ll have a chance to win against teams 7-32 in most weeks, so ride the defense, run game, and vet QB to 10 wins or replace if season goes side ways (more likely than not, unfortunately). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh8686 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I don't like choosing some static position of he should start by X game, because it's not just time that determines readiness but dynamic conditions and adaptations. However, in that same vein, people who are pushing for him to start week 1 seem to be focusing on the dynamic conditions and adaptations but are ignoring time. While also ignoring or underestimating the NFL learning curve in my opinion. Not all experience is good experience! You have to have an NFL level base to make use of that experience so it's properly internalized and that base takes time to develop and you also have to put Haskins in a position where the experience he internalizes is constructive and progressive rather than regressive. There are key differences between tempering and forging a blade versus breaking one. We need to evaluate both on parallel tracks to have a real understanding of when and what it takes for Haskins to be ready and is consequently the most well-informed approach. Dynamic Requirements: (Adaptations occur through acquiring successful/constructive reference experiences at live game speed with live game pressure) -Footwork (Various Drop Back Depths and Timing, Resetting Feet, Climbing the Pocket, Lateral Moves, and maintaining Full Body Activation over the course of the throw) -Processing (Progressing through Reads, Keys, Order of High-Low Concepts, Identifying Coverage and Disguises on the Fly) -Protections -Chemistry/Timing/Touch Duration/Time Dependent Requirements: (Knowledge Based Internalizations that Require Time and Interaction, but not necessarily High Tension/Pressure environments at all times for application) -Internalizing the Play Book -Mastering Terminology -Calling Plays in the Huddle -Setting the base foundation for good habits, and replacing old bad habits that won't cut it in the nfl. Some of these have adaptations that occur on both tracks, but it is important to differentiate the two and make sure both are being hit successfully for Haskins, prior to giving him the keys to the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJ Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 I like the advanced calculus metrics that people are using to judge when Haskins is ready to start, but I'm a simple man stuck in his old ways: I use the suck test. If Keenum sucks, start Haskins. If Haskins sucks, start Keenum. Honestly, I like my system better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Anyone else hear Chad Dukes today? He was talking with someone familiar with Keenum's time in Denver (I can't remember his name ). Apparently Case opened the season with 3 INTs, and then became gun shy. Late in the year after being begged to take risks once again, finished the year with 5 INTs in the final 3 games. He said to expect the same conservative offense we saw last year, which I call slow play run run short pass / bend don't break. And then the guest proceeded to say the best place for Case is on the sideline. He was talked up as a potential future coach, and his best contribution here will be holding a tablet and having Dwayne's ear. Short of a few playoff wins, I fear Case doing well here is counter productive. He will bolt for his next payday, while tanking our ambitions at a decent draft slot next year. Lets say Dwayne doesn't play at all because Case does great. We won't know what we have, and will miss out on a QB in the deep draft. Josh Rosen playing as a rookie was parlayed into the top pick in the draft, oh and a 2nd rounder. Maybe Dwayne learns a TON by having Case do well, and a 9-7 season is best for this team. But the interview I heard today renews my fears that Case will firmly know that INTs are his ticket to the bench, so he won't take risks. Do we even definitively want Keenum to be his mentor? No offense but he seems like a bit of a journeyman to me. Playing Case for a month or 2 is just going through the motions of the old way of the NFL. Young QBs play early and often all across the league now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 10 hours ago, RandyHolt said: Anyone else hear Chad Dukes today? He was talking with someone familiar with Keenum's time in Denver (I can't remember his name ). Apparently Case opened the season with 3 INTs, and then became gun shy. Late in the year after being begged to take risks once again, finished the year with 5 INTs in the final 3 games. He said to expect the same conservative offense we saw last year, which I call slow play run run short pass / bend don't break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek1973 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 19 hours ago, RandyHolt said: "No need to rush him".... There was also no need to draft him, especially if the master plan is to not play him no matter how good he looks. We could have easily rolled Case Colt and JJ, and get a QB next year. If playing early in a career is truly risky, I wonder should we even risk playing him in preseason. Shut him down for the entire year, and stop ****ing around if its a valid concern. I personally don't think significant experience is gained in the very vanilla preseason. All coaches are hiding their hands; the home team puts a little show on for the fans, and then all get off the field asap. Starters play what, maybe 3 quarters? It's like a pickup game after the starters trot off after a series. For those that want him to sit, try and quantify the benefits. If he doesn't play the first month, do his chances of a lengthy prosperous career increase by 2%? If he sits the entire season, does it skyrocket to 6%? We should have numbers on this by now. I contend that many people learn best through experience, and the benefit of making him sit will be offset in other ways. Including the obvious, not letting him get live game experience. A lack of experience, is already a thing he is dealing with. I think its ironic to use the term "rushing" him in a game filled with all teams rushing the ball, and rushing the QB. I think fans pundits and coaches are rushing to judgment preaching that sitting him is the best thing for him. Don't you think is different drafting a rookie and starting him right away than getting your guy and letting him seat for a year to learn the "speed" of the game and system? Personally if this is our guy I am glad they drafted him AND I hope they seat him so that he can learn the ropes. The dude was one year started in college you don't throw him to the wolfs in October Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougarrick Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Keenum had 3tds and a 84 rating and 324 yards. The picks had little effect on the game. The next week he had a game winning drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 2 hours ago, TheGreek1973 said: Don't you think is different drafting a rookie and starting him right away than getting your guy and letting him seat for a year to learn the "speed" of the game and system? Personally if this is our guy I am glad they drafted him AND I hope they seat him so that he can learn the ropes. The dude was one year started in college you don't throw him to the wolfs in October Good post and all good points, but I will counter with: We as fans calling for him to sit a month or 2, are speculating that watching the speed of the game IS best for him. Jay could copy much of OSU's playbook and make life very easy on Dwayne to start the year. Run heavy and max protect in gun on 3rd and long. Slowly introduce over the year more of Jay's playbook, and concepts. Or, he can start him in game 1 with the full non OSU playbook needing to be memorized, never let him throw from gun/make him take 7 step drops to maximize learning footwork, go sans max protect, and make him do complex reads. Or, Jay can be a stickler for details and refuse to give him a single snap until he has mastered his footwork, and make him sit all year. Only one of those scenarios is throwing him to the wolves, the other is the old school playbook (sit greenhorn), and my preferred is the modern day play your young QB playbook, that is all the rage. You know the list of rookie QBs doing very well in the past ~10 years, all because OCs catered to their strengths. I really do think some learn best by being throw to the wolves, and openly admit, others need to be nurtured and watch to take things in. Jay controls all of it, and probably already knows if the speed is too much for him. Fans calling for him sit in April are guessing what is best, with what I think is clearly an over abundance of caution. Dwayne is not a small school kid that needs to fill out. He has been preparing for this his entire life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Cougarrick said: Keenum had 3tds and a 84 rating and 324 yards. The picks had little effect on the game. The next week he had a game winning drive. He sounds like Ryan Fitzmagic Lite. Yeah, maybe the picks were end of half, 3rd and forever garbage time stuff. Usually turnovers have a big hand in the game, unless playing a feeble offense. Do you consider him a journeyman, or does he more have untapped potential, which maybe has become lost in the plethora of playbooks he has been forced to digest. On topic (and not directed at you), I see he sat for his first year and a half. What went wrong that has made him bounce around on 6 teams? Many here preach sitting is good for most all young QBs. I think what is asked of a QB is a much bigger factor e.g. how fat was his Houston playbook, and was his OC an old stiff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Not sure where to put this but hope the new deal stuff is wrong. Trent misses give or take 25% of the season every year and is one violation away from a year suspension. And he's not getting younger. can't resist the below Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Ugh, trade him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 According to FO, on a play per play basis, Keenum was right around Alex Smith in terms of effectiveness throwing the ball. Using the ANYA stat, Keenum was a tier below Alex, but both were bad. 6 minutes ago, RandyHolt said: Only one of those scenarios is throwing him to the wolves, the other is the old school playbook (sit greenhorn), and my preferred is the modern day play your young QB playbook, that is all rage. You have seen the list of rookie QBs doing very well in the past 9 years, all because OCs catered to their strengths. Taking a QB's first 8 games of his rookie season and looking at those numbers, the best guys have been RG3, Dak, Deshaun Watson, and Mariota. If you take the back half of their rookie season, you'd then include Baker Mayfield and Russell Wilson. Watson falls off that list (injury), and Mariota (started sucking). OC's catering to one's strengths seems to vary a lot. Something to note: RG3's entire rookie season, the Redskins had a great run game. Dak's entire rookie season, the Cowboys had a great run game. Wilson's first 8 games, the Seahawks run game was bad, the last 8 games their run game was great. Baker's entire rookie season, the Browns had a good (but not great) run game. Mariota's entire rookie season, the Titans had a bad run game. Watson's rookie season the Texans run game was OK, but after he got hurt it went into the toilet. We can extend the time period further to include 2008. Matt Ryan had a good rookie season, and that was also buoyed by a good run game. I think there's a strong correlation between successful rookie seasons (or at least finishing strong), and a good run game to help take pressure off the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said: Wilson's first 8 games, the Seahawks run game was bad, the last 8 games their run game was great. I'm pretty sure this coincided with Pete Carrol seeing the Redskins success with running read-options out of the Pistol and then implementing that with Wilson/Lynch towards the back half of the season. Nearly all of the rookie QB's you mentioned above are mobile QB's. Offenses generally have more success running the ball with QB's who are a threat to run. Luckily, I think our backfield is still good enough to be a solid running team even if Haskins starts at QB. But, unlike the QB's above, it still puts more pressure on Haskins to win with his mind rather than his legs, which would be asking a lot from a rookie QB who was a high school quarterback 15 starts ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinzplay Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Sit that kid for the WHOLE season. Don't let Gruden ruin him. Let him sit and learn from Matt Cavanaugh and Alex Smith. This team is not a QB away from a SB run. We're a HC away, so give the youngster time to learn and develop. When the new coach arrives next year, let's see. We can roll with Keenum and Colt, and ride what should be a pretty nasty and stingy defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartyPosse Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 This is actually great for Haskins to learn fast how difficult the nfl can be against a potent DL. Make him learn early how quickly he’s gonna have to process the field and account for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougarrick Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 hour ago, RandyHolt said: He sounds like Ryan Fitzmagic Lite. Yeah, maybe the picks were end of half, 3rd and forever garbage time stuff. Usually turnovers have a big hand in the game, unless playing a feeble offense. Do you consider him a journeyman, or does he more have untapped potential, which maybe has become lost in the plethora of playbooks he has been forced to digest. On topic (and not directed at you), I see he sat for his first year and a half. What went wrong that has made him bounce around on 6 teams? Many here preach sitting is good for most all young QBs. I think what is asked of a QB is a much bigger factor e.g. how fat was his Houston playbook, and was his OC an old stiff? His problem was he wasn't drafted in the 2011 draft and he should have been. So his development didn't really begin till his second stint with the Rams and they were horrible. That being said, I think he is a good QB and an even better person and all he cares about is winning. Also the last part of last season Sanders was out and his weapons were diminished. But he never ever quits. Not being drafted really set him back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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